The nice thing about student loans is that you can consolidate them into a ridiculously long pay off period. I have some with a 40 year payoff period. When you combine that with a no penalty for early payments, you can take advantage of low payments now, and if you get some extra cash in the future you can pay them down or off at that later date.

When it comes to trying to get future loans for car/house/business/etc., your overall debts are not what they take into account, it's your debt to income ratio, (Monthly Debts / Monthly Income), and your credit score....so if you have low monthly payments, they don't count against you as much as unconsolidated 10 year repayments would.

I graduated with about 75K in debt and have not yet had trouble making payments, rent, and food at the same time. Granted, I am married and my wife works as well, and I was also never laid off.

The education was worth every penny.

Swick ... if I were you, I would peruse some of the many past threads here on archinect that address student debt in relation to the cyclical nature of our profession. While there are some who embrace tagalong's point-of-view above, there are many others who do not.

Personally, I'm not at all hostile to advanced education and myself graduated from that fine institution you hope to attend. However, I am hostile to the idea of running up a big debt burden that will haunt you for many years into the future. I worked for a number of years before entering grad school, saved my pennies, and thankfully emerged with zero debt - with no help from my parents. I highly recommend that approach if you can swing it.

The overall economics of this profession are poor (and have been for years) and there's little on the horizon that would suggest any real improvement any time soon. You will find that employers pay graduates with lots of student debt exactly the same as they pay graduates with low, or no, student debt.

I graduated with no debt. The freedom of no debt is invaluable, worth as much as the education itself in my opinion, even more. Life doesn't end at graduation, it begins. If you graduate in enough debt that you've already spent all of tomorrow's earnings, all of your tomorrows will look pretty sad and rigid.

A good education is very important, one of the few things in life worth going into debt for, but it is a decision that must be smartly managed! Too many have failed to manage it and are finding themselves in trouble. Sounds like you are on the right track to even ask the question, as this isn't the norm of the past few years where we see students declaring that no amount is too much to pay for an education. Run your numbers, see what you come up with, find your tolerance. Understand the difference between COST and VALUE, and think long term.

It is definitely possible to get by with the student loan debt, you just need to have it carefully planned and budgeted for just like everything else

I am not sure how much GSD is or how much your debt will be from going there, but if its important for you to be at that school, then you just have to make sure you take every advantage to make sure the debt is worth it.

There is smart debt and there is dumb debt, and student loans can be either

If you have to ask....

Just dont go over 100k please, including undergrad loans

Actually, the rule of thumb is to not borrow more than you can expect your salary to be the first year.

@optimistic
are you referring to the first year after M Arch graduation? so what, 50-55k?

FAB, was I unclear? :) I have no idea if 50-55k is reasonable after graduation if that is what you are asking, sounds high to me. Actually, in creative professions, the rule of thumb is to play it even safer. Not my original idea - look it up.

instead of a "rule of thumb," i would calculate what the actual repayment would be under various repayment plans, i.e. find out the terms of the loan and repayment options before taking the loan. you may not know the exact interest rate before graduation, but you can estimate it. then figure out the amortization of the total amount borrowed against the repayment period to see your monthly payment. personally i would cap my monthly repayment at $500, but that is up to you to decide based on your expected salary. use real numbers and don't bullshit it.

and btw, if you don't understand what i'm talking about, you are financially not prepared for grad school and should not go. this is the shit that schools should have an obligation to explain to students before they accept, but the schools have been woefully in negligent in their responsibility. hello sub-prime mortgage crisis!

A 6% interest, $50,000 loan would roughly be about $380 a month over 25 years or $570 a month over 10 years.

Strawbeary is right about this. Take your expected and multiply it by 0.77 to get the maximum loan amount you can technically afford.

Multiply it by 0.6 if your expecting to get a job in an area with a high cost of living (rent, mortgage) or an area predominately dependent on car ownership.

Entry-level architectural interns in New York City make between $45,000 to $55,000. So, the maximum debt load would be around $27,000 in student loans-- around $310 a month.

For a single person, that would be a total of $2,700 net pay. Minus student loans and health insurance, around $450 a month, gives a whopping grand total of about $2,200.

Even at 45% housing of total budget, you'd have about $1,000 a month on rent. That's a total decent livable amount... although you will definitely not be living alone.

I think this issue has to do with more than just numbers and really depends on your living preferences and architectural goals.

If the only place that will pay you enough to have the quality of life you want is a big corporate firm that does nothing related to what you were interested in grad school, is the education or the job really worth it?

Personally I was really careful with money after undergrad and used savings to pay for my living costs while I was getting my fancy ivy league degree. Luckily I was getting an m.arch 2 so it was not for 3+ years. That made my B.Arch seem like a much smarter idea.

I still have a decent amount of loans, but I'm living with family and will have one loan paid off in a few months while I finish getting some "practical" experience and IDP hours. For me, being able to choose to work somewhere with great work is very important, and having fewer monthly financial obligations makes that more feasible(financially at least).

a very, very rough ballpark calculation:

$20k debt = $200/mo payment
$50k debt = $500/mo payment
$100k debt = $1000/mo payment



let's say you graduate from the GSD and take a typical $50k/yr architecture job:

$200/mo is annoying but manageable. you'll live slightly more frugally than your peers for a couple of years.

$500/mo is pretty tough, but probably manageable. you'll probably sacrifice 401k payments and buying a house for 5-10 years after you start working. you'll also constantly feel poor and it sucks.

$1000/mo is going to be insanely painful and maybe impossible. you will have a decent chance of default.



don't underestimate how bitter you'll be writing monthly student loan checks for 10-20 years!

all that said, the GSD is a wonderful place - good luck!

What about Master in Real Estate programmes? Is it more logical to take more debt? I have been accepted to top ones and dunno what to do.

I have around $60k in personal savings but not additional income (properties, bonds, etc.), plus my mum would give me away $10k as a gift. Tuition is already those $60k, so I should get a loan for the cost of living (usually three semesters).

I think it would be easily $30-40k for cost of living, so that makes at least $20k in loans (or borrowing that money from my parents and paying them back later).

Do you think is it feasible to take 20k for this kind of Master and ending with no savings? I am 26.

Considering the state of the economy I am quite frightened to take any loan/credit and burn my savings.

ok this one seems like a no-brainer, but...

offered $41.5k/year from princeton (covers tuition, health insurance, plus $3000 for kicks); 3 year m.arch
offered $26k/year from gsd (tuition alone is $39k); 2.5 year m.arch ap

princeton seems like the sure bet, but i'm not sure if it is rumor or fact that the school is currently highly theoretical/non-practical. from what i can manage to find on this board, it seems like practically everyone who has an opinion on the school is just recycling rumors/engaging in hearsay.

in the end i want a well-rounded education....

@..v,

I can definitely understand you asking that question.

But IMO, Princeton's seems like the most ridiculous offer anyone could hope for. Go to Princeton, go to Princeton, go to Princeton.

now that that's out of my system... all said and done, if money were ABSOLUTELY NO OBJECT, and both offered you the exact same deal, i would choose GSD.

Hopefully I didn't just talk in circles, and that in some way that helped.

@are you Swick?

haha, thanks. that's actually exactly what's going through my mind right now. the problem is, i don't know if picking up a bit more debt should be the determining factor in all this. i do want to teach in the future, but i also want to practice and i'm not sure if princeton will help me do that. where are all the princeton archinectors when i need them?

is there a reason why there are so many interesting, upcoming architects who went to gsd? and not so many that went to princeton? is that just a numbers game, since there are just more gsd alum out there?

Hawkin - invest $60k in education, or invest $60k in your own project?

@..v

These guys are Princeton architects. My boss hired them for Arthouse in Austin and is in love. Just sayin -

http://www.ltlwork.net/

oh my goodness, for heavens' sakes GO TO PRINCETON. Holy hell. Look at the list of practicing teachers coming out of there! Damn. How on earth could you look that in the eye? Compare, for example, the selectivity of Princeton with that of the GSD. You should be very flattered by their offer. I personally know quite a few Princeton grads and each had impressed me before I learned where they went to school.

My guess is that yes - it is a numbers game - the GSD graduates many students per year. Trust me - there are plenty of design duds who graduated from the GSD as well (you will meet both in your career). (The Boston employment market is notorious for not being automatically impressed by a GSD resume for this reason.) There are probably a few duds who graduated from Princeton too I'm sure but I have yet to meet any myself.

And I don't mean this as trash talk - I think the GSD is a great school - I am only speaking to the numbers aspect. A large school is very different from a small one - up to you to decide which you like. I would NOT look that gift horse in the eye though. If worst came to worst and you hated Princeton after year 1 you could also look into a transfer - and be no worse off than you started since they are paying for everything. But you won't hate it. If you're like most people you'll hate being shackled to debt much more than you ever would have noticed the differences in the two programs...

But then again, I would actively pay more for a good theory-based program... you have the rest of your life to practice, and really only the short time of your studies to immerse yourself very deeply in conceptual and theoretic investigations. Even the most "practical" program isn't anywhere near what you'll learn on the job yourself anyway so frankly I find that whole line of thought ("school should be just like real life practice") pointless and utterly dispiriting.

That said, I doubt the GSD & Princeton really differ THAT much on the theory aspect, in the grand scheme of things... it's not like the GSD is ITT Tech. Besides, to a large extent you yourself as the student will impact the bent of your studies in an M.Arch program - that's one of the beautiful things about an arch. education. It's very self-centered in many ways.

not to be an ass, but how in the hell were you offered a full-ride scholarship and not know the answer to this?

Ahh, LTL. It really doesn't get much better than LTL. [sigh]

Look at the people teaching at Princeton. You will be impressed. I really am amazed you're even struggling with this decision. Princeton enjoys an excellent reputation for a reason.

@mantaray

thanks for the response. of course i'm incredibly flattered and humbled by their offer, i just needed some more insight since i don't have the pleasure of knowing any current or former princeton students. and of course i know there is the rest of life to learn how things come together, i suppose my concerns were rooted in my past experience, since i found it impossible to land an architecture job after graduating from a program with a heavy theory focus. i suppose the situation would be different coming out of graduate school though.

you see, that's what i was trying to figure out. i can't really picture how gsd and princeton can be THAT different based on the student work i've seen. they're quite similar in fact. so why does one have a reputation that's quite contrary to the other? it just didn't make sense as far as i could see, so i thought i'd ask. thanks for the info.

@ won and done williams

see paragraph above.

also i guess the question is, what does it mean for an architecture program to be "theoretical?" is a program "theoretical" as soon as you learn something aside from how wall sections are put together? the term is incredibly vague but is thrown around a lot in discussion, so i thought i'd clarify it by getting some specifics from people in the know. anyway, thanks for responding too.

i went to princeton. i would say you can email me with questions, but i long ago lost track of the address and password i set up for this account. if you want, i'll email you...

@ elinor

that sounds really great. if you could just mail me through my archinect profile...

They don't, that I know of. To my knowledge they are both very highly regarded.

i am sure, even if Princeton is so highly theoretical that it wouldnt really prepare you for actual work (which i highly doubt), that if you are aware of this going in, you can prepare yourself anyway

I would think a school like Princeton gives you many options, so i wouldnt be overly concerned in that area



Isnt this a little late in the game to be figuring this out though, if you have already gotten acceptance letters? Was this not a concern at all when you were applying?

..v, i sent you an email w/my personal address. i should have time later today to write you something longer, so just send any questions you have...

hawkin - please get advice from somewhere else besides a forum of architects, but if you really want a financial opinion from an architect, here's mine: don't spend all your savings! You will need it to help launch your career. I suppose there is a safe amount to spend, I'd guess no more than 1/5-1/4 of it, but please don't take my word for it, ask a pro.

v- sounds too good to pass up, congrats!

it depends, too, on other factors. some people want a particular educational or professional experience so intensely that they are willing to forgo personal relationships, family, settling down, quality of personal life, etc....they just are really into their career, into learning, into research, etc...for such a person, a reasonable debt limit may be higher if it helps them get the opportunity or experience they want

this is not to say that they will definitely have to forgo these other things. but if you do what it takes to get these sorts of opportunities and follow through on them, regardless of your background or means, one risk is that there will be tradeoffs and you will have to accept them.

if you are into architecture, you do love it, but it is about # 3-4 on your list of priorities, and you are not independently wealthy already, you may want to set a lower limit or the debt could, by necessity, elevate the importance you must place on success in your career, even though this is not what you want.....if this happens, it may not have been worth it

hawkin, I had a similar question not too long ago and hired a CPA/financial planner to review my options and give advice. It was well worth the money.

@mantaray

i meant reputations in terms of the school's focus, not prestige. People have helped clarify this point though, and it seems that i shouldn't be too concerned with it.

i suppose one of my original qualms comes from seeing the first built works from former paper architects. often there is much lost in the translation from concept/schematic/model to the real thing in all projects, but i've noticed that the architects that rely too heavily on form really suffer when the budget isn't there. the projects end up clunky or like cheap imitations of the original proposal. i'd like to eventually have the knowledge and expertise to be able to smartly pare-back designs. it seems it'll just have to come from experience and developing a more keen eye for smart/elegant details, etc. i should get a hold of more issues of detail...


@marmkid

i applied to the school last minute on a recommendation from a former professor, so i wasn't really expecting to go there. but since i've received their incredible offer i've been trying my best to more deeply understand their program, and to solicit the opinions of those in the know. i simply didn't want to be surprised if i accept their offer (which it seems more and more likely by the day that i will).

the easy solution of course is to just visit the school, but i don't live anywhere near new jersey so it's out of the question for the time being.


@elinor

thanks! i'll check it in a bit...


@optimistic strawbeary
you're telling me! i had to do a double- (and triple- and quadruple-) take when i saw the offer. then i had to verify it because, at first glance, it just looked like a list of expenses. silly, i know, but if something looks too good to be true...

I dont think you can go wrong with a full ride from Princeton.


I would imagine also, that if you find the school too "theoretical", you can most likely make up for that with internships to gain real world experience, and i would guess that Princeton offers pretty decent resources for internships through alumni


I didnt go there so I am just guessing at a possible answer to one of your concerns


Good luck!

Thanks for the comments.

They really don't teach any financial literacy in high school do they? To be upfront I have made plenty of bad financial decisions in my time.

Nj may be far away but weigh several hundred dollars for a plane ticket vs the $26,000+ you would be spending at the GSD.

Consider everything you hear on archinect about how bad things are in this profession. It should be a no brainer to take the ride PLUS spending money. You aren't even talking GSD vs state school because it's ivy vs ivy.

Dia made a great point that $60k might be enough to run your own project.

We all had "go to school" hammered into us to the point that the idea has become as involuntary as our heart beat. You could make a strong argument that in 2011 most college degrees are a crap shoot and that goes double for architecture. Have fun in NJ ;)

I forgot to mention that the Princeton degree costs time, but not money. Could you go for even more education after your M.Arch if you thought it would be helpful?

there definitely is something to be said for going to an ivy league right now for free in a terrible economy. You basically get 2-3 years all expenses paid where you dont need to look for a job

The hope obviously is that things are somewhat turned around when you graduate.


But really, thats not a bad position to be in considering the alternative.



And worst case, there are no arch jobs when you graduate, you really only lost time, no money or debt for the most part.

i wouldn't even say it 'costs' or 'loses' you any time...you have 3 years of freedom to work on your own work. that's the hardest thing to manage when you're out there with a job, spending most of your time on other people's projects...

ideally, put together a body of work while you're there that will do more than get you a job when you get out...something publishable or something that can be developed further as your own research/practice.

are you talking about research? I was just talking about a job at a firm right now is tough to find, so waiting 3 years down the line free of charge isnt necessarily a bad option by any means


It is annoying when those pesky "paying" projects get in the way, isnt it? :)

no i know, what i meant it that maybe it's possible to put together a body of work in grad school that can kisckstart some sort of independent (paying) practice...and avoid the whole 'job' busimess altogether.....

I would imagine Princeton would be a place where that is definitely possible, with their resources and alumni connections

Plus, having it all paid for takes a little pressure off and would allow for some "risk-taking" in that regard, where if at somewhere else accumulating debt, you might be more concerned with the "safe" route of finding a traditional job to begin paying off the school debt



It's hard to find any negatives about being offered a full ride from Princeton

@elinor

I am intrigued by what you're suggesting. Do you have any specific examples of students whom have successfully accomplished that in the past.... or have you tried to do so yourself? I guess a recent example would be the YAP finalists formlessfinder, but they have been on the scene for too short of a period for anyone to decide if they have successfully transitioned their graduate studies into a profitable design practice.

i've got some ideas kicking around for how to avoid the "job" business all together, though i'm not sure how realistic they are yet (of course). i guess grad school will be the perfect labratory to determine their feasibility, iterate, and build necessary connections/infrastructure.

the only example i can think of that sort of fits the bill is mass design group. i'm not sure what their graduate research was centered on, but they certainly figured out how to make the most of their time at gsd.

it's apt that you mention formlessfinder since they're recent princeton grads...

i've known quite a few people who translated their grad work directly into strong teaching careers, but not so much into built work..will give it some thought.

...some egregious typos in my last post...typing on the run...embarrassing!

oh yeah, there's moshe safdie's habitat 67! was based on his master's thesis from mcgill.