you would really like Cincinnati, then - the co-op program makes it very professionally oriented and its name has a considerable amount of clout. i graduated from there in '10, but i've heard pretty bad things about the faculty in the undergrad program since i left, and that there's an overbearing emphasis on revit...

if you're really interested in professional practice definitely go, because there are alot of opportunities to gain work experience in great firms. i just wouldn't expect a whole lot from your design studios. also a really great study abroad program to denmark that is awesome.

Find the cheapest 5 year accredited program out there.

Then go with it.

although i appreciate your desire to focus on practice, i would advise you to give yourself the chance to make that decision as part of your education rather than as a high school student. you never know what you are going to think in five years. and honestly, take what your parents and teachers tell you with a grain of salt (even if they happen to be architects...) you might find you want to move in a different direction once you begin working out these issues on your own.

as someone with some high-quality experience both academically and professionally (with a design, though not a theoretical bent), here are some of my impressions based on my (limited) experience--

how about cornell? i've found cornell grads to be really smart in practice but also able to move really well between the theoretical and the practical, though most of the ones i know graduated in the 90s...i think they offer a bArch.

syracuse grads also seem competent to me.

carnegie mellon grads were appreciated at offices where i've worked, but more as managers/technical workers. if i was paying private school tuition, i'd go to cornell instead.

as far as state schools go, i've been impressed by grads from michigan, uva, and berkeley, though those are all 4-yr programs that will require a master's.
va tech grads seem pretty good, though from what i've seen, not quite as good as the others...

i've never worked or studied with anyone from cincinnati. maybe it's because i am in nyc, but they don't seem to have much of a real presence out here. (i'm sure someone will prove me wrong on this...)

apply to the bArch program at the cooper union. even if you don't think you are interested, apply anyway. it's tuition-free, and an incomparable education. it's not for everyone, but if you get in and hate it after a year, you'll probably be able to transfer anywhere in the world you want.

go with a BArch - 5 yr program. A lot of schools you are looking at has a 4+2 program. That should save you a year.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to contact the schools ahead of time to see if they have a legitimate career center that actually keeps record of where their graduates are working -what city and what firm. Ask them if they keep their records up to date. This will come in handy when you graduate or need to move to a different city. If any of these schools say something like "we have a career center, but you can find our alums by doing a linkedin search" cross them off your list. They don't care about anything other than meeting enrollment. Some schools keep salary surveys, ask for those too.

I would recommend finding a school closest to the city you want to live and work afterward. It's a 200K commitment that pays you crummy wages kid, make sure this is something you want to get into. Good luck.

i mean, if you truly are merely concerned with the legality of it, then NCARB and the ARE [as far as i know] admits interns who have 12 years of experience in the profession and no professional degree.

and given that the average time from graduation to full licensure is 11 years in new york state [off a 5 year BArch] you would actually be shaving off 4 years, and have the added bonus of not having any loans to repay.

that said, why not just go to a six month drafting program and begin offering drafting services? better yet, take a few electives in modeling and rendering and provide some visual expertise? a very hot commodity, i assure you.

even better yet, just take a high school elective in 'woodshop' and sell yourself as a professional model maker!

even better yet! play with legos! a lot!

ps out of the schools on your list, not all offer a bArch, despite what wikipedia says. I know for a fact Michigan doesn't. I don't think UIUC and Minnesota do either... Check their websites and make sure the degree you're interested in is an accredited degree.

Fewer and fewer schools have BArchs. I don't know why but perhaps they can make more money selling an additional year of school?

Cincy has a great reputation but read the essay by Malcom Gladwell in the New Yorker about college rankings in order to see what a load of BS they are:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_gladwell

Make,

I agree with Gladwell's point to some degree but I had followed the rankings, just in terms of numbers, somewhat since graduation and knows that Cincy was ranked pretty high a few years back. Are they not that competitive? Also, Michigan has a very high acceptance rate compared to the others on the list, but is currently ranked #1.

The people that I meet from Cincy benefit greatly from the internship which, as far as I know, is unique. You're right, there are many good places.

there's also Rice. they have an internship year and a 5-yr bArch. And a really good reputation.

Rice has a similar setup during their fourth year, I think. Most students pursue internships on their own during the summers. I hope Cincy isn't charging tuition on the internships that are part of their program. If so, shame shame.

Rice has a full internship year. It's part of their program and they make an effort to place students in high-quality national and international firms (like renzo piano's office...)

I had a somewhat similar mindset as you when I was shortlisting schools - that I wanted to design buildings and practice professionally. Well, a decade after finishing with it, I find myself doing almost everything except conventional practice, for the better. So you never know how things will turn out, but I do hear your starting point.

You'll likely gain a much better appreciation of the intangibles of theory and context when you're in school, and that might surprise you. I went in with zero design literacy, and completely unaware of the intellectual side of architecture. Once I discovered it, i couldn't get enough of it. I'm still pretty grounded in doing real projects, but can't imagine not drawing upon the intangibles vs. the nuts and bolts, daily. YMMV.

From word of mouth, Cincinnati has had a good rep historically for their co-op, and Oregon is quite grounded (former boss went there, and it made my shortlist also). But have you ever considered a Canadian school? Significantly cheaper than most US schools which is a consideration in this economy especially. Because there are so few of them, they're all pretty solid. The US has the cream of the crop when it comes to schools, no doubt about it, but if you want a solid professional program, you really can't beat the value of a Canadian school.

Waterloo is very highly regarded and it has a 4+1 professional masters (very competitive, with a paid co-op program that has students all around the world and claim a 100% employment rate after graduation). Dalhousie is also known for being very pragmatic with an emphasis on the craft of building, and it's co-op program is also very well regarded. Both of these schools also made my shortlist. One of Dalhousie's professors, Brian McKay-Lyons (who has an award-winning practice) is hosting a conference this summer (Ghost Conference) which addresses the very notion of getting back to the practice of building buildings in a meaningful vernacular manner, and away from so much theory and global homogeneity.

http://archrecord.construction.com/news/2011/02/110224ghost_lab_13.asp

I ended up at a Canadian school and have worked in Canada/US/overseas with no problem including a stint at a stararchitect office.

Wow, this is a lot of excellent information in such a short time period. Thanks everyone! I've heard a lot about the University of Cincinnati's program, and I plan on visiting their campus to take a closer look. Also, I'm keeping an open mind in terms of what I want to do in college. No one in my family pushes me to be this or that; they simply support whatever I want to pursue. I also plan on visiting UIUC in about two weeks, as I live relatively close to Urbana-Champaign.

Keep the responses coming, because this can be a real great thread. I'll plan on posting information I find of these schools later on. Thanks!

I wish I would of known the differnce btwn 4yr/5yr arch programs coming out of high school. Bangs head against desk.

Lol, are M. Arch programs usually much of a drag? Of course you save one year, but is the application process for the M. Arch tantalizing?

Spending 6 years in the same place is a drag. Getting a BArch is the same as an MArch, unless you are looking to teach. Most schools offer a 1 year MArch program for those with a BArch. For all practical purposes, BArch=MArch, got it? I can't for the life of me figure out why the hell kids go back to school and get a degree that they already have.

because a master's always gets you more respect and more money than a bachelor's.

i will almost guarantee that bt here will end up going to grad school, even if he/she ends up getting a bArch.

That's laughable. No firm in their right mind is going to pay someone more for an MArch than a BArch. A BArch from Cornell, Syracuse, Rice, or CalPoly means more and has a stronger reputation than their MArch programs, so I would hire someone with a BArch from these schools over an MArch...

An MArch only gets you more respect in school, some of these kids went to school for art or psychology, are you going to tell us we should have more respect for someone with an art degree and a 2-3 year arch degree than someone who went to architecture school for five years? Who are you kidding? The MArch programs from my experience is also less intense than their fiver year counterparts. It's an MArch, not an MBA. The OP said he/she is interest in practice over theory so how could you guarantee this person will be getting an MArch?

As for salary, some MArch are much older the BArch grads, but from my experience, a kid with a BArch and one year of work experience is worth more than a kid with an MArch and no work experience. If the OP was in RE and transferred his skills over the the MArch, it might get him a couple thousand more a year, but definitely not worth the investment.

Kid, call the schools and check their salary surveys for yourself. When I left school with a BArch, I still made more than most MArch from my school because I had been working many summers prior.

that's BS. just ask around. it's like rock paper scissors--a MArch beats a BArch almost every time.

I've written about this before. I have a really good bArch, but got tired of watching all the ivy kids beat me out. so i got an ivy master's, and my firm gave me a 50% pay raise. no joke. choose wisely, kids.

that said, i think you should get a bArch anyway. that way, the decision is left up to you whether you want the master's or not...

Kid, call your local architect and ask them if all things being equal, they would pay someone 50% more for an ivy league degree, or for a top 10 MArch program vs a top 10 BArch. Then let us know if you smell roses or fish.

yes, and when you're done talking to the local architect, call a major, world-class firm in a large city and ask them what they pay grads from a bArch program vs. an ivy mArch program. i'll save you the trouble--the answer is (+/-) 45k/65-70k.

look, this shouldn't be another discussion about salaries, etc. a bArch is a great degree and bm is right when he says it SHOULD be equivalent. the truth is that in competitive environments, a master's always SOUNDS more advanced than a bachelor's. and employers, who are usually too far out of the academic loop to know which programs are better than others, often hire and pay more for those with more advanced-sounding degrees....

I think too many people come to the assumption that ivy = $$$, when in actuality, it's been proven that, in general, ivy graduates make no more than graduates of other fully competent and unique schools. Anyway, that's not what I want to talk about here, but I do appreciate the insight.

My aim is to gather details on the idiosyncrasies of the different architecture programs out there, and then come to the conclusion of which one will be best for me. Success comes from the work of the individual, not the college they attend.

BTPayne, you really need to figure out the difference between a 4 yr vs 5yr program, otherwise, if you do a 4 yr, it's likely you will need to go back for a couple more years, spend another 100K just to be able to qualify for taking the exams. You should be able to cross off quite a few from your list there. A lot of schools that offer the BS/ BA/ non-accredited degrees attract more local students, like Michigan or Cincy, and again, you would be going back for a couple more years just to get an MArch. All the schools above are respectable, but you might want to look into Cornell, Syracuse, Rice, CalPoly. These four, imo, have been the best BArch programs historically.

"Success comes from the work of the individual, not the college they attend."Couldn't have said it better myself.

Now back to salary. All things being equal, an Ivy League degree will not get you 65-70k out of school (even the high schooler here can knows this) if you have very little work experience, especially in this economy. If a kid came to me fresh from an ivy league school and asked for 65-70K, he better be able to bring in clients, otherwise, I would ask him why he thinks his Yale or Harvard degree is worth 50% more to anyone than one from Rice or Kansas...

I would have a very hard time paying a 25 year old with an ivy league degree who had been in school the entire time more than a 25 year old with BArch with a couple years work experience. You could get 65-70k after several years of working with any respectable degree and from what I have seen, a fancy degree doesn't get you there any faster, it depends more on the person.

And from the "world-class" global arch firms, you might get an interview with a more famous degree, particularly if the principals went to that school and get that same degree, but from the colleagues I know, they generally work much longer hours and pay less per hour than your average size arch firms.

bt--don't underestimate a degree from a respected school. ivy does not necessarily = $$$, but it will pay dividends throughout your career. as someone who has been working independently, i find that clients are definitely impressed by a degree from one of these schools and this does translate into somewhat higher fees. and this is something you can take with you throughout your life.

also, even grads who aren't making more money may have access to better firms and better work, and the quality of work you do makes probably the greatest difference for your quality of life and future experience in this field.

if i had a kid or student who wanted to go into architecture, i would tell them to go to a school that best positions them for any future possibility. you may want want to go beyond your local area, you may want to go to grad school, you may even want to go abroad. so the best thing you can to at this point is to get a degree that will be recognized by the most people possible. and although i would never tell anyone to mortgage their future for a degree, i think it's ok to take on a reasonable amount of debt for a better degree. it will pay for itself.

burningman, you're giving really shortsighted adivce.

elinor, telling a kid to spend a few more years in school to pursue an unnecessary degree, and misleading him into thinking that will make him worth 50% more is about as a short sighted as an advice you have ever given...and now you are saying it isn't necessary $$$, which is it?

I think the kid knows that salary or success depends more on the person's ability than on what degree is hanging on his wall. Aside from teaching, there is absolutely NOTHING that you could do with an MArch that you couldn't do with a BArch. If you needed to go back to Yale or Harvard to get an MArch when you already have a BArch from Syracuse or Rice, that says more about your incompetence and inabilities than it does about having any far sighted goal.

what makes you think i'm misleading anyone? i'm telling him my experience both from the side of someone with just a barch, to that of someone with a barch+march. why would i be making any of it up?

you have a barch only. so how can you know what things would be like for you if you had another degree that you don't actually have?

Huh, You have a b.arch and still decided to get the M.arch.

I can't understand why you would have done this? I can understand the 4 year and the M.arch but from a B. arch??? Sounds more like degree envy to me.

read my previous posts. and i'm not the only one--haven't you ever heard of an MArchII?

Yup. Heard of it.

Can't believe people fell for it.

Every time I hear that there is some difference in a B.arch and an M.arch in reagrds to $$$$, it is always someone with the M.arch working in the upper east coast area somewhere. Now, maybe that means something for NY and Mass. but the figures we have to go by do not show a large increase in salary but a huge increase in debt. If debt is something you can handle or you are an east coast trust fund baby, great. But to increase someones loan amount by $50k-$100k for a job paying $5k more per year, is nuts. But again, I don't have to compete for a starting $45k per year job against IVY M.arch grads. If you are in this boat, I'd probably tell you to set your sails for a new harbor after you got the B.arch.

Elinor,

What makes you think I only have an BArch? oh, assumptions. I did mention having gone to two schools on very good scholarships in another thread that you were very busy trolling. And no, I have no envy of an MArch or anyone dumb enough to think that extra two years is worth a couple thousand extra. Aside from Cornell undergrad, both of the programs I attended rank higher than any ivy league degree. I would say then, that both my degrees are stronger than ivy league degrees. I couldn't be talked into getting an MArch even if you offered a free ride to Yale or Harvard.

There's a ton of trust fund babies, artists types in NYC that can't figure out what to do with themselves and take a very leisurely approach towards life. The reality is most of us can't afford an ivy league degree or have the time to pursue two more years of unnecessary schooling.

well, if you wouldn't take a free mArch from those places, you're a fool.

and fyi, i can't afford an ivy education. but i got one. for free. because i went to an excellent bArch program. which, by the way, was free also. and it would have been worth it even if it hadn't been free, but i probably wouldn't have known it because i would have listened to all those people telling me to go to a state school to save money.

and the original poster should know to go to the best undergrad school possible. because that's what opens these doors.

Yikes, you two are splittin' hairs! Take it outside!

;-)


What was the question?

Well, crap. Of course if you can get the M.Arch for free on top of a free B.arch,, you should take it.

Exactly how many people out there do you know who are getting a free education?

Most are not.

But if your parents paid for it, or scholarships, or trust fund etc got you a free ride, freakin ride that train til the end.

But if you are like the other 90% of us, get the best B.arch you can for the fewset bucks possible. Make sure you don't exceed about $80K doing it though.

fair enough, on the fence. but--try for AS MUCH as you can get! :)

ps, i know quite a few...like, everyone i went to school with. which is why i'm giving the advice i'm giving...

I've read that the University of Oregon's architecture program is the best in the nation regarding sustainability, which really interests me. They have a B. Arch program, which is also a plus. Anyone know more about the school? I've tried contacting them by email for some more info, but no one has replied to me yet.

whew, this thread is crazytimes!

As for advice to the OP... the very best advice I can give is to make every possible effort to visit each of the schools you are considering for minimum 1 full day, during the week if possible.

Aside from buying a house, your education will be the biggest expense you ever spend. It pays to spend a lot of time researching and considering your decision. Do whatever you have to do to get your parents to take you to visit these schools. Unfortunately for us architects there really aren't that many programs out there, so you have to travel to visit them... but it will give you an insight to the workings of each program, the feel of the student body & environment, etc. that you will never get anywhere else - CERTAINLY not rankings which are close to bs.

I would say, of the B.Arch programs, in my personal opinion the most generally well-regarded are Cornell, Syracuse, CalPoly, and I have to add Carnegie Mellon as well. Instead of Rice however I'd put UT Austin. Rice has a decent reputation (don't have much personal knowledge of it) but I have really been impressed with the UTA program personally. These are each quite strong design programs, each teach theory as well (important), and each also teach 'materials & methods' - aka how to put a building together. They are in my opinion relatively similar, in the sense that each attract solid, well-regarded faculty, each have a *very* rigorous curriculum, and each boast grads who have a good rep in the profession. They differ somewhat in their ideological leanings, I'd say. CalPoly & CMU tend to be more interested in green design / building performance (like the Solar Decathlon competition), Cornell in theory, Syracuse & UTA in, hmm, I guess I'd say constructability... although each of these schools seems to do a fine job of teaching this. (For the record I have personally spent time in 3 of these schools, know grads from each, and have reviewed the curriculums of each. I also graduated from one of them.) Cornell & CalPoly are in the most restful / beautiful setting, CMU is probably in the most vibrant urban setting, Austin is generally held to be one of the more fun places to live in the states, and Syracuse can pose some intriguing urban questions.

There - my own personal thoughts. But here's a warning - completely disregard all these thoughts of mine and go and visit all the programs you think you're interested in yourself. Look up the faculty online, find videos of their lectures, and read the articles they've written. Find the undergrad catalogue online and read the course descriptions. Call the schools & ask how their design studio sequence is structured; what their design focus is on; how much theory they teach; how they teach constructability (ie, do they actually have students work with the materials themselves - as in, learn how to pour concrete, learn how to frame, learn how to lay bricks...); what kinds of non-required courses are offered; what kinds of study abroad opportunities are offered* and/or encouraged; etcetera. Then think about what you're interested in. Do you like to draw by hand? Are you more interested in 3d design on the computer? Do you want to build things yourself, like a furniture design course or Solar Decathlon? Are you interested in green design? Are you interested in urban issues? Are you interested in history & theory? You should be able to get copies of various design studio syllabi from the arch office if you ask (they keep them on file). Study the syllabi & see what you think.

Then, apply everywhere, apply to every scholarship you can find, and think seriously about how much debt you want to have in a field that pays poorly in comparison to the other professions, including teaching. (And VERY poorly in comparison to the corporate business world.) And I'm not being cynical, I'm encouraging you to be honest about reality.

* VERY important imo

@mantaray, thanks for that helluva post. I'll look into the programs myself and find the best fits. Green design / building efficiency are most important to me, along with real practice, of course. I understand that theory/history is important in architecture (just as it is in any field), but it's just not a priority for me. Keep the discussion coming. Excellent thread!

yeah that ended up being a little longer than I had intended it to be. Procrastination is an amazing thing.

Resources --

http://www.naab.org - NAAB List of Accredited Programs

Becoming an Architect, 2nd Edition

http://www.archcareers.org

http://www.archschools.org

http://archcareers.blogspot.com/

Also, if you want information on UIUC - contact me via our website -- http://www.arch.illinois.edu --.

@Dr. Architecture, your blog looks great, and it cleared up some questions I had. I might check out your book as well. I'm actually visiting UIUC soon for a campus visit. Definitely looking forward to it!

As you are visiting next week, contact the School of Architecture - arch-undergrad@uiuc.edu to schedule a time to visit us during your visit to Illinois.