So, we all are aware that architects are the poorest professional out there. Everyone is trying to figure out how to make the money and still be in architecture. Well, search no further. Our office just collaborated with a commercial pilot that is a registered architect. He knew from the start that architecture while not put him in a Lexus, will not put him in a mansion, will not pay his pension. He flies a couple of times a months the long haul flights that gives him enormous time to run his practice. Can you imagine”¦..working 4 times a month, earning at least $12,000 a month, having your own practice”¦.god damn”¦life is good
My best friend is 21 and in a community college. He works as a longshoreman and makes $40 an hour and when he works weekends or the graveyard shift he gets paid double. He normally works this schedule so he gets paid $80 an hour. He just started last week! He has no experience and merely sat in on an orientation. A co-worker told him if he was with the company long enough he could make upwards of $300 an hour. ohh...and he works part-time.
...then there's my neighbor who is a beautiful stripper who gets paid $4000 for working just three nights out of the week...
okay I don't want to talk about this anymore, I feel dumb.
architect/pilot....how about architect/stripper or architect/longshoreman. it sounds just as good though seems like the beginning to a softcore movie.
hahaha
I want to be a architect/comic book creator/collector/run a store/rent out a partments.
19. male college student in LA area have no experience, i have some experience but not enough to call it experience.
currently learning SOLID EDGE, ive know AutoCad since high school.
took a class on photoshop, and illustrator.
ridge, was this pilot flying commercial or someones personal plane? Jet or prop? The only other profession I was looking into other than architecture was being a pilot. Maybe someday I can have both as well.ridge, was this pilot flying commercial or someone’s personal plane? Jet or prop? The only other profession I was looking into other than architecture was being a pilot. Maybe someday I can have both as well.
brian, he's a commercial pilot flying a boeing 777 between the US and Europe. He flies on a Monday to Europe and flies back on the Friday. Then he's off for about 2 or 3 weeks depending on the schedule.
Becoming a commercial pilot in the US is easy once you past the physical and psychological test. After that you need to pass a written exam. The exam is based on one book that has about 400 questions and answer. So, th only think you have to do is learn 400 Q&A and try to remember the 80 question that are randomly chosen out of the book. Once you past the exam you just have to make sure you get your flying hours and then your set for a life of luxury (if they don't lay you off).
i am getting layed off for a month and am thinking about persuing to become a certified personal trainer. I am pretty sure they make good cash and you only have to train a couple hours a week. And..if your lucky you can train hot housewives! ALthough, with my luck that wont ever happen.
ridge,
Getting the flight hours is the tough part. Its pretty expensive to log hours for training. Especially on the big jets. I was actually considering going through the military first so that my hours would be paid for. Obviously spending 4 years in the military is no longer and option after I just spent 6 years in school. Its kind of strange to think just how close I was to enlisting. I mean, I'd be throwing bombs out the window down on insurgents right now. Instead I'm slaving over a model.
I've also considered flying cargo. Cargo pilots don't have to deal with passengers, and get to fly in all kinds of fun weather that passenger airlines don't fly in.
Flying to Europe sounds like a great gig. I know a pilot that flies from Dallas Hawaii two to three times a month. I can think of worse destinations. I wonder what kind of pay private pilots get. My friends dad has jet and hires his own pilot when needed.
It doesn't take much to find a job that pays better than an architect. On the contrary, I haven't found a job that pays less than an architect. A mail man working on Saturday has a higher hourly rate than an architect. Working as a partime Photoshop jock at an advertising company pays better than being an architect. If you really want to make money and still work as a fulltime architect, I’ll suggest you become a mediator. Take a mediation course (course length is about 1 week), make your dining room (if you have one) into a conference room and off you go. You can earn a minimum of $250 an hour.
This pay talk always gets me really depressed. Sure, commerical pilots make far more than architects. What really gets me is that people with little skill and zero education make much more than us. I have a friend who works at a furniture store selling dining room sets. Basically he does nothing and is earning close to $80k/year. Not bad for a community college drop out.
One thing is for certian. There is no justice in the take home pay between professions.
I'm always amazed at how people act surprised at pay differences between architecture and other careers. it's just simple supply and demand. everyone wants a dining room set, and no one wats to sell them. Most people don't even know what architects do, yet tons of people are trying to make a career of it. it makes sense that we get paid shit
Everybody, educated or non-educated people, wants to make money, except for architects. The basic architect excuses is that there will always be an architect that will do the job cheaper. Well, so does the furniture store, but still they make the money and not architects.
My clients think good design is fine. The education comes in showing them how much time and angst that the realization of good design requires.
One residential client of mine can't figure out why a schematic/DD design proposal that they saw in July has taken until this month to get under construction. Never mind that I gave them a potential schedule back in June and that we're still meeting it. (Honestly, I could tell then that they didn't believe me when I told them how long it would take.)
The purpose of CD's is beyond them; they won't say, but they think, that the month of delays in permitting and Historic Preservation Commission reviews were my fault (despite the hurdles the municipality kept throwing up and the under-compensated hours I spent getting through them); negotiations with contractors feels like a waste of time to them.
In the end, the rookie client gets very impatient and somewhat resents the money they pay me instead of understanding. << All of which I'm trying to rectify, btw. The relationship is still good (better than I'm making it sound as I vent here), but they really are baffled, despite my best efforts at laying out the process in advance.
Sometimes you just want them to see how you spend your day, all the junk that you have to do...It's a tricky balance. As a young designer you don't want to undermine the client's confidence in you by telling them all you have to go through. It'll come off as complaining when you really need to communicate experience, professionalism, and some measure of authority. On the other hand, if you keep the client too isolated from all the b.s., they think its all pretty drawings and cool shoes and wonder why they're supporting your lifestyle.
As a general point ... Architecture is a service industry and the client pays a fee for that service. The fees then go to pay your wages.
Crap fees, crap service.
Don't sell yourselves short as the cut has to come somewhere during the project - whether it’s in time, support, IT resources or the easiest cut back ... wages.
Our practice is now in the valuable position of being able to call the fee scale and be selective in the jobs where the fees are not to our expectation. As we have a good reputation for quality of service it is now a nice position to turn down work that does not pay well.
While my wages are lagging behind my mates who are in Insurance, Engineering, Medical etc. The gap is closing.
I suspect that this situation only applies to large commercial practices or starchitects which make up less that 5% of practices in the UK. Average earnings for Architects in small practices (less that 5 people) average between £20-30K. Average earning across the whole of the UK is £24K.
Architects are poor because the don't want to sell the project short. Pay them twice as much and they will waste twice as much time trying to make the thing perfect and still come out upside down. It is their nature.
It's a delicate balance in some cases with clients. And there are some who don't even blink an eye when you tell them your fees up front. You ask yourself why they all can't be this way. I say it comes down to experience, and being in this business long enough to understand how to spot trouble clients. So far I about 70% on Which I think is horrible. I still get involved with deadbeats ,but thats just business.
"Any good architect would get it right first time and rake in the vast profits.''
If you have managed to solve each one of your clients design needs in the first go round. God bless.
I've managed to have some designs accepted on the first round but a majority want to see it three different ways before they make up their mind.
When it comes to all the wranglings of permits and reviews by state and county. It is your responsibility to understand what each project will need to satisfy these issues. Having experience with these issues will allow you to inform the client well in advance. I know this has helped me in many cases. And when I say inform them do it in writing so they can't dispute your date of advanced warning. Still there are times I've had an unexpected issue come from left field. You just have to deal with it and hope to client is understanding enough to lose faith or not compensate you
Most of the architects that get it right the first time around are building McMansions and faux Victorians. When you have clients that have extremely poor taste or low expectations, it's not so hard to do - it's just a regurgitation of something down the street or seen in a magazine.
This is why our landscape is filled with crap that is a copy of someone else's crap.
I've yet to see or meet a good architect that gets it right the first time. Shit, I have yet to meet a bad architect that gets it right the first time!
maybe there should be client testing. I if their aspirations are too low they connot commission the build. We have the watchdog here to act as the mediator on quality - CABE. The UK local Authority often refers planning submission's to CABE for independant comment.
see links for CABE site.
Trace - the worst crap is the copied crap, it lacks any originality!
My studio prof right now does a couple things in his practice which are probably worth emulating:
1) he regularly turns away potential clients when he doesn't think their interests and his are a good match (which he sometimes has difficulty justifying to his family but forces himself to do it anyway)
2) he will only work on a billed hour basis, never for a percentage of the overall project (so his employess and himself are never working for free).
I'm sure this is much more difficult than it sounds, but I can imagine it has leads to a happier career with less whining.
PS: he does not have money coming in from any other source (trust fund, etc)
Nov 16, 04 5:37 pm ·
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Show me the money
So, we all are aware that architects are the poorest professional out there. Everyone is trying to figure out how to make the money and still be in architecture. Well, search no further. Our office just collaborated with a commercial pilot that is a registered architect. He knew from the start that architecture while not put him in a Lexus, will not put him in a mansion, will not pay his pension. He flies a couple of times a months the long haul flights that gives him enormous time to run his practice. Can you imagine”¦..working 4 times a month, earning at least $12,000 a month, having your own practice”¦.god damn”¦life is good
This sure beats doing side projects.....
My best friend is 21 and in a community college. He works as a longshoreman and makes $40 an hour and when he works weekends or the graveyard shift he gets paid double. He normally works this schedule so he gets paid $80 an hour. He just started last week! He has no experience and merely sat in on an orientation. A co-worker told him if he was with the company long enough he could make upwards of $300 an hour. ohh...and he works part-time.
...then there's my neighbor who is a beautiful stripper who gets paid $4000 for working just three nights out of the week...
okay I don't want to talk about this anymore, I feel dumb.
architect/pilot....how about architect/stripper or architect/longshoreman. it sounds just as good though seems like the beginning to a softcore movie.
hahaha
I want to be a architect/comic book creator/collector/run a store/rent out a partments.
19. male college student in LA area have no experience, i have some experience but not enough to call it experience.
currently learning SOLID EDGE, ive know AutoCad since high school.
took a class on photoshop, and illustrator.
i need experience.
ridge, was this pilot flying commercial or someones personal plane? Jet or prop? The only other profession I was looking into other than architecture was being a pilot. Maybe someday I can have both as well.ridge, was this pilot flying commercial or someone’s personal plane? Jet or prop? The only other profession I was looking into other than architecture was being a pilot. Maybe someday I can have both as well.
brian, he's a commercial pilot flying a boeing 777 between the US and Europe. He flies on a Monday to Europe and flies back on the Friday. Then he's off for about 2 or 3 weeks depending on the schedule.
Becoming a commercial pilot in the US is easy once you past the physical and psychological test. After that you need to pass a written exam. The exam is based on one book that has about 400 questions and answer. So, th only think you have to do is learn 400 Q&A and try to remember the 80 question that are randomly chosen out of the book. Once you past the exam you just have to make sure you get your flying hours and then your set for a life of luxury (if they don't lay you off).
i am getting layed off for a month and am thinking about persuing to become a certified personal trainer. I am pretty sure they make good cash and you only have to train a couple hours a week. And..if your lucky you can train hot housewives! ALthough, with my luck that wont ever happen.
ridge,
Getting the flight hours is the tough part. Its pretty expensive to log hours for training. Especially on the big jets. I was actually considering going through the military first so that my hours would be paid for. Obviously spending 4 years in the military is no longer and option after I just spent 6 years in school. Its kind of strange to think just how close I was to enlisting. I mean, I'd be throwing bombs out the window down on insurgents right now. Instead I'm slaving over a model.
I've also considered flying cargo. Cargo pilots don't have to deal with passengers, and get to fly in all kinds of fun weather that passenger airlines don't fly in.
Flying to Europe sounds like a great gig. I know a pilot that flies from Dallas Hawaii two to three times a month. I can think of worse destinations. I wonder what kind of pay private pilots get. My friends dad has jet and hires his own pilot when needed.
It doesn't take much to find a job that pays better than an architect. On the contrary, I haven't found a job that pays less than an architect. A mail man working on Saturday has a higher hourly rate than an architect. Working as a partime Photoshop jock at an advertising company pays better than being an architect. If you really want to make money and still work as a fulltime architect, I’ll suggest you become a mediator. Take a mediation course (course length is about 1 week), make your dining room (if you have one) into a conference room and off you go. You can earn a minimum of $250 an hour.
Social work pays less. My husband is a therapist (w/o a master's...yet) and he barely clears the 20K per year mark.
This pay talk always gets me really depressed. Sure, commerical pilots make far more than architects. What really gets me is that people with little skill and zero education make much more than us. I have a friend who works at a furniture store selling dining room sets. Basically he does nothing and is earning close to $80k/year. Not bad for a community college drop out.
One thing is for certian. There is no justice in the take home pay between professions.
Architecture is what you make it.
You don not have to be a Whore to Anymore.
Lets All Go On Strike.
I'm always amazed at how people act surprised at pay differences between architecture and other careers. it's just simple supply and demand. everyone wants a dining room set, and no one wats to sell them. Most people don't even know what architects do, yet tons of people are trying to make a career of it. it makes sense that we get paid shit
the solution would be to educated people on the benifits of good design
*educate
Everybody, educated or non-educated people, wants to make money, except for architects. The basic architect excuses is that there will always be an architect that will do the job cheaper. Well, so does the furniture store, but still they make the money and not architects.
Yes..., they did not lie to us at School
When they said that there is No Money in Architecture.
You have to be smart with what you make.
Spend less than you make.
Side jobs and most important
Marry Money.
My clients think good design is fine. The education comes in showing them how much time and angst that the realization of good design requires.
One residential client of mine can't figure out why a schematic/DD design proposal that they saw in July has taken until this month to get under construction. Never mind that I gave them a potential schedule back in June and that we're still meeting it. (Honestly, I could tell then that they didn't believe me when I told them how long it would take.)
The purpose of CD's is beyond them; they won't say, but they think, that the month of delays in permitting and Historic Preservation Commission reviews were my fault (despite the hurdles the municipality kept throwing up and the under-compensated hours I spent getting through them); negotiations with contractors feels like a waste of time to them.
In the end, the rookie client gets very impatient and somewhat resents the money they pay me instead of understanding. << All of which I'm trying to rectify, btw. The relationship is still good (better than I'm making it sound as I vent here), but they really are baffled, despite my best efforts at laying out the process in advance.
Sometimes you just want them to see how you spend your day, all the junk that you have to do...It's a tricky balance. As a young designer you don't want to undermine the client's confidence in you by telling them all you have to go through. It'll come off as complaining when you really need to communicate experience, professionalism, and some measure of authority. On the other hand, if you keep the client too isolated from all the b.s., they think its all pretty drawings and cool shoes and wonder why they're supporting your lifestyle.
As a general point ... Architecture is a service industry and the client pays a fee for that service. The fees then go to pay your wages.
Crap fees, crap service.
Don't sell yourselves short as the cut has to come somewhere during the project - whether it’s in time, support, IT resources or the easiest cut back ... wages.
Our practice is now in the valuable position of being able to call the fee scale and be selective in the jobs where the fees are not to our expectation. As we have a good reputation for quality of service it is now a nice position to turn down work that does not pay well.
While my wages are lagging behind my mates who are in Insurance, Engineering, Medical etc. The gap is closing.
I suspect that this situation only applies to large commercial practices or starchitects which make up less that 5% of practices in the UK. Average earnings for Architects in small practices (less that 5 people) average between £20-30K. Average earning across the whole of the UK is £24K.
Agree on the fee bit.
One question - how does one live in London on 20k-30k?
Frugally ....
Architects are poor because the don't want to sell the project short. Pay them twice as much and they will waste twice as much time trying to make the thing perfect and still come out upside down. It is their nature.
I don't think it's in an Architects nature to waste time making things perfect, let alone spending twice as long doing it when the fee is doubled.
Any good architect would get it right first time and rake in the vast profits.
It's a delicate balance in some cases with clients. And there are some who don't even blink an eye when you tell them your fees up front. You ask yourself why they all can't be this way. I say it comes down to experience, and being in this business long enough to understand how to spot trouble clients. So far I about 70% on Which I think is horrible. I still get involved with deadbeats ,but thats just business.
"Any good architect would get it right first time and rake in the vast profits.''
If you have managed to solve each one of your clients design needs in the first go round. God bless.
I've managed to have some designs accepted on the first round but a majority want to see it three different ways before they make up their mind.
When it comes to all the wranglings of permits and reviews by state and county. It is your responsibility to understand what each project will need to satisfy these issues. Having experience with these issues will allow you to inform the client well in advance. I know this has helped me in many cases. And when I say inform them do it in writing so they can't dispute your date of advanced warning. Still there are times I've had an unexpected issue come from left field. You just have to deal with it and hope to client is understanding enough to lose faith or not compensate you
Most of the architects that get it right the first time around are building McMansions and faux Victorians. When you have clients that have extremely poor taste or low expectations, it's not so hard to do - it's just a regurgitation of something down the street or seen in a magazine.
This is why our landscape is filled with crap that is a copy of someone else's crap.
I've yet to see or meet a good architect that gets it right the first time. Shit, I have yet to meet a bad architect that gets it right the first time!
maybe there should be client testing. I if their aspirations are too low they connot commission the build. We have the watchdog here to act as the mediator on quality - CABE. The UK local Authority often refers planning submission's to CABE for independant comment.
see links for CABE site.
Trace - the worst crap is the copied crap, it lacks any originality!
So what would be wrong with handing the prospective client a questionaire to fill out before your first meeting. Pretentious ?
It could ask questions like who are your fav architects
What are your favorite materials.
Fav styles of buildings
Maybe it would be multi choice with an "other" line
Seems silly.
My studio prof right now does a couple things in his practice which are probably worth emulating:
1) he regularly turns away potential clients when he doesn't think their interests and his are a good match (which he sometimes has difficulty justifying to his family but forces himself to do it anyway)
2) he will only work on a billed hour basis, never for a percentage of the overall project (so his employess and himself are never working for free).
I'm sure this is much more difficult than it sounds, but I can imagine it has leads to a happier career with less whining.
PS: he does not have money coming in from any other source (trust fund, etc)
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