The commiserate thread has gone to sleep. Now, people are asking about going to architecture school, alternate majors, and compatible minors.
We all know that a lot of people who start don't finish. Here's what I've seen: (a) if in undergrad, they often "self select" out after year 1, and especially after year 2, because of acknowledging a lack of abilities and/or not willing to invest the time, and (b) if in grad school, few, if any, leave a M.Arch 2 and the few who leave M.Arch 1 do so because they sort of stumbled into it, looking for a change into something they would like more - they usually leave by the end of the first term, or by the end of the first year. However, whether undergrad or grad, some people who are able to make it through and who don't feel passionate about architecture never ventured into a firm, and instead went to work in stuff that related to the building industry.
What were the causes for the defecting you saw? Did you actually see anybody get kicked out? Getting Cs in studio doesn't get one kicked out, I don't think.
accesskb
Jun 1, 13 2:13 am
well.. I know a student who failed so many classes he dropped out.. He'd have been kicked out if he didn't do it voluntarily.
Most who dropped out either couldn't deal with the workload and stress that came with the profession, or were exceptional students prior to joining architecture school and saw their mark drop significantly because their design skills weren't very good. They enrolled in another field where they could contribute better and get the respect they desired.
natematt
Jun 1, 13 12:47 pm
I saw lots of people leave in undergraduate, though I would say that only two of those were people who I thought the profession might miss. One became a graphic designer, and the other faded out of existence for a couple years due to personal issues...... i think she might have finished recently though. I do know of one student who was kicked out of a studio for not showing up or doing work. It pains me that he still ended up with his degree and currently works in a firm, despite a clear lack of improvement. I think the most often cited reason would have been work load required to do well.
As for MArch. I can only think of 3 people (out of about 90) who quit. One because she had some family issues and didn't care for the school. I think she transferred. Another for unknown reasons, though her background was not architecture, so i think she realized it just wasn't for her. And one more because he was unable to complete select portions of coursework, became discouraged, and gave up.
observant
Jun 1, 13 1:29 pm
Access and natematt:
Good input.
Access - you verbalized something I didn't think of, but that I was aware of. For a really bright person, academically and even with good common sense, the feeling of accomplishment can be diminished in design studio where a lot of the process is innate, conceptual, and then arbitrarily judged. The one person that comes to mind is a guy who started at Berkeley in architecture, and then transferred to CE, indicating that "architecture was flaky." He even stayed on for a masters in CE.
Natematt - getting the wrong school for M.Arch. 1 can be a mess. That's why I'm big on this topic. It becomes your architectural alma mater, and it's nice to have a good fit. Of about 22, we lost 3 - an urban planner, a chemical engineer, and a nurse. The first one found out they really liked urban planning more and the last two had no business being there. The chemical engineer was very smart and returned for graduate work in that field. The nurse was not, or at least did not act very smart.
Still, while I may try to understand why there is all this struggle with completing portions of the work, I didn't experience that. I generally knew what the building would look like after reading the requirements. It them became a term of working out the little things, like aligning staircases and whatnot. The all-nighters came at the end because I had underestimated how much time all the graphics I wanted to do would take. I got them done and then would then feel like a wet noodle. I often got sick, as in worn down and ran a temp, at the end of most terms, and an airplane flight after didn't help, but it went away after a few days of bed rest and hanging out with my parents.
Wilma Buttfit
Jun 2, 13 7:22 am
I think 2-3 students were kicked out of our program for underperformance. Now, over 10 years out, many have left the profession because of better opportunities elsewhere and lack of satisfaction, myself included. My class had a high number of entrepreneur types who own their own companies. A handful married well and are stay at home moms and dads.
natematt
Jun 2, 13 5:04 pm
Observant - agreed. Some schools offer a wider range of paths than others too. That's one of the best things about going to two larger schools for my degrees.
I have always thought there was something far more stimulating about architecture than degrees where you can get high GPA's just by being "bright." If you get through every level of education with a 4.0 you're probably not being pushed hard enough.
Stephanie Braconnier
Jun 4, 13 8:32 am
In my experience it was the other way around - a lot of unqualified, uncommitted, dispassionate people clung all the way through undergrad but out of 12 master's students, only 3 made it through; and 1 only by the skin of her teeth.
A lot of the above comments refer to either students not being a good fit or not really feeling 'passionate' about the field of architecture or just being poor students in general. But I'll add another good reason why people quit: unqualified profs who have no interest in teaching and would rather piss off with their guaranteed salary then attend weekly desk-crits.
Even the most dedicated, independent and hard-working students said goodbye to architecture at my grad school because of the total lack of administrative support & organization.
This could be a problem specific to international programs, though...
square
Jun 4, 13 11:02 am
Interesting... I had a similar experience my senior year (I was by no means close to dropping out, so this is a bit tangential) with a professor who was especially aloof, for unknown reasons. Nearly every one of my crits was something along the lines of 'looks good keep going.' Luckily, I was able to seek out one of the younger faculty for side crits, which essentially fueled my project, and to this day this younger faculty member is still one of my mentors. If I didn't have that support though, that particular semester would have been pretty rough.
observant
Jun 4, 13 12:50 pm
Interesting ^ and ^^
My school had a pluralistic approach to architecture, that they saw a huge drop in undergrads but didn't want people to drop out from their masters programs, and if they did, it was sort of a hand on the shoulder "that's ok" kind of exchange, from what I could surmise. They figured a lot of people could and would end up in an allied area, and they did. I definitely cannot say, after reading so may posts, that we were pushed or abused in ANY studio I had. Also, it was not a high-design environment. The studio profs just tended to walk around and say "ok, looks good." Also, I think how rigorous the workload is depends on personal perception. If you're just sitting there in grad school with nothing else going on except maybe trying a new place to eat every now and then and going to work out, what else is there to do but architecture?
natematt
Jun 4, 13 11:25 pm
unqualified profs who have no interest in teaching and would rather piss off with their guaranteed salary then attend weekly desk-crits.
That's a good point, but I think it applies to any program, not just architecture.
grimaldi_c
Jul 25, 14 2:36 pm
hello, just saw this thread and i wanted to comment because i'm a drop out.
I am an architecture school drop out who was truly miserable during my time in school. I hated it, i felt like i had no freedom and hated that fact that architecture student were basically not allowed to enjoy their work. architecture for me was not something that need to be torture as many schools make it. most students spend 90 of their day indoors never really actually experiencing the world outside. I hated the snobbishness of it, i hated the long talks of concept by people who had never seen of experienced the thing that's they were talking about. I hated the professors who would be extremely hateful and nonconstructive to students even thought they themselves had never built anything of substance. In general, I hated the Idea architecture school as a whole. I dropped out of architecture school during my third year, DROPPING OUT OF ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL WAS THE BEST DECISION EVER MADE.
Since then, i have work in 4 different architecture firms as a designer and i'm now working on finishing my architectural licensing exams here in California. Due to the fact that i was already working when I left architecture school I had 5 years experience in an architecture firm as opposed to the 0 years my class mates had when they graduated. my class mates graduated into the recession and hence many had to wait another 2-3 years to really find an actual architecture job, many are still unemployed or have moved on to other things. recently, i decided i needed a change to continue my development elsewhere and hence started looking for a new job. From 10 resume/portfolios sent i received 8 call backs, went to 7 interviews, and got offered 6 jobs with a comfortable salary. Including 2 from what are considered top 20 firms in the US.
If something Is your passion you will not stop until you achieve your goal. I have tried to manage myself, not be greedy, and find the places that i think will best suit me in my personal and professional growth. I'm am now contemplating on going back to school to finish just for the fact that i would like to teach studio one day and help good designer who might be as unmotivated as i was at one point.
like I said, DROPPING OUT OF ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL WAS THE BEST DECISION EVER MADE.
archanonymous
Jul 25, 14 11:12 pm
I did a straight shot 5 years Masters with 10 semesters of studio. I honestly didn't take a single English or math core class, and the elective load for us was light, although I remember carrying between 18-23 credit hours, and most were the same. Our class started with 76 and graduated 25 of those, plus 10 M.Arch 1 2 and 3 year students we picked up in years 3 and 4. It was... brutal. I totally get why so many dropped out. I know one went to business school and is successful and well-paid. All his buildings were round. Sort of a round peg in the square hole of unrelenting modernism. Anyways, another was the greatest Italian jersey construction don's son. He kept getting kickedmout, money kept getting him back in. Finally a professor convinced him to switch to business as well, I believe he is in line to run a huge corrupt business out east. Good work if you are born into it. I think generally most students who switched are making more money.
ithink
Jul 28, 14 7:59 am
I never once thought of quitting it was all in or bust. I was so young back in those days. When we are young we don't think about future consequences, because we have all the time in the world. Its been very satisfying to me, I do love what i do. Now that i have a family it is very hard for them both financially and just not being around much, and im one of the lucky ones who got re hired during the great recession. While less educated people are doing very well, and have larger families not to mention a huge house. Just my thought and advice is think of those you love or will love. have a good day.
Volunteer
Jul 28, 14 10:04 am
I think Grimaldi pretty much has it nailed above. Another point to consider is the architectural graduates from middle class families with huge loans will not be able to set aside much if any money for their retirement accounts because of the loan payback that goes on for decades. They have impacted their future retirement as well as forgone five years of income while standing around in studio looking at some gossamer building that will never get built. Grimaldi bypassed all of this and will still get his license.
The commiserate thread has gone to sleep. Now, people are asking about going to architecture school, alternate majors, and compatible minors.
We all know that a lot of people who start don't finish. Here's what I've seen: (a) if in undergrad, they often "self select" out after year 1, and especially after year 2, because of acknowledging a lack of abilities and/or not willing to invest the time, and (b) if in grad school, few, if any, leave a M.Arch 2 and the few who leave M.Arch 1 do so because they sort of stumbled into it, looking for a change into something they would like more - they usually leave by the end of the first term, or by the end of the first year. However, whether undergrad or grad, some people who are able to make it through and who don't feel passionate about architecture never ventured into a firm, and instead went to work in stuff that related to the building industry.
What were the causes for the defecting you saw? Did you actually see anybody get kicked out? Getting Cs in studio doesn't get one kicked out, I don't think.
well.. I know a student who failed so many classes he dropped out.. He'd have been kicked out if he didn't do it voluntarily.
Most who dropped out either couldn't deal with the workload and stress that came with the profession, or were exceptional students prior to joining architecture school and saw their mark drop significantly because their design skills weren't very good. They enrolled in another field where they could contribute better and get the respect they desired.
I saw lots of people leave in undergraduate, though I would say that only two of those were people who I thought the profession might miss. One became a graphic designer, and the other faded out of existence for a couple years due to personal issues...... i think she might have finished recently though. I do know of one student who was kicked out of a studio for not showing up or doing work. It pains me that he still ended up with his degree and currently works in a firm, despite a clear lack of improvement. I think the most often cited reason would have been work load required to do well.
As for MArch. I can only think of 3 people (out of about 90) who quit. One because she had some family issues and didn't care for the school. I think she transferred. Another for unknown reasons, though her background was not architecture, so i think she realized it just wasn't for her. And one more because he was unable to complete select portions of coursework, became discouraged, and gave up.
Access and natematt:
Good input.
Access - you verbalized something I didn't think of, but that I was aware of. For a really bright person, academically and even with good common sense, the feeling of accomplishment can be diminished in design studio where a lot of the process is innate, conceptual, and then arbitrarily judged. The one person that comes to mind is a guy who started at Berkeley in architecture, and then transferred to CE, indicating that "architecture was flaky." He even stayed on for a masters in CE.
Natematt - getting the wrong school for M.Arch. 1 can be a mess. That's why I'm big on this topic. It becomes your architectural alma mater, and it's nice to have a good fit. Of about 22, we lost 3 - an urban planner, a chemical engineer, and a nurse. The first one found out they really liked urban planning more and the last two had no business being there. The chemical engineer was very smart and returned for graduate work in that field. The nurse was not, or at least did not act very smart.
Still, while I may try to understand why there is all this struggle with completing portions of the work, I didn't experience that. I generally knew what the building would look like after reading the requirements. It them became a term of working out the little things, like aligning staircases and whatnot. The all-nighters came at the end because I had underestimated how much time all the graphics I wanted to do would take. I got them done and then would then feel like a wet noodle. I often got sick, as in worn down and ran a temp, at the end of most terms, and an airplane flight after didn't help, but it went away after a few days of bed rest and hanging out with my parents.
I think 2-3 students were kicked out of our program for underperformance. Now, over 10 years out, many have left the profession because of better opportunities elsewhere and lack of satisfaction, myself included. My class had a high number of entrepreneur types who own their own companies. A handful married well and are stay at home moms and dads.
Observant - agreed. Some schools offer a wider range of paths than others too. That's one of the best things about going to two larger schools for my degrees.
I have always thought there was something far more stimulating about architecture than degrees where you can get high GPA's just by being "bright." If you get through every level of education with a 4.0 you're probably not being pushed hard enough.
In my experience it was the other way around - a lot of unqualified, uncommitted, dispassionate people clung all the way through undergrad but out of 12 master's students, only 3 made it through; and 1 only by the skin of her teeth.
A lot of the above comments refer to either students not being a good fit or not really feeling 'passionate' about the field of architecture or just being poor students in general. But I'll add another good reason why people quit: unqualified profs who have no interest in teaching and would rather piss off with their guaranteed salary then attend weekly desk-crits.
Even the most dedicated, independent and hard-working students said goodbye to architecture at my grad school because of the total lack of administrative support & organization.
This could be a problem specific to international programs, though...
Interesting... I had a similar experience my senior year (I was by no means close to dropping out, so this is a bit tangential) with a professor who was especially aloof, for unknown reasons. Nearly every one of my crits was something along the lines of 'looks good keep going.' Luckily, I was able to seek out one of the younger faculty for side crits, which essentially fueled my project, and to this day this younger faculty member is still one of my mentors. If I didn't have that support though, that particular semester would have been pretty rough.
Interesting ^ and ^^
My school had a pluralistic approach to architecture, that they saw a huge drop in undergrads but didn't want people to drop out from their masters programs, and if they did, it was sort of a hand on the shoulder "that's ok" kind of exchange, from what I could surmise. They figured a lot of people could and would end up in an allied area, and they did. I definitely cannot say, after reading so may posts, that we were pushed or abused in ANY studio I had. Also, it was not a high-design environment. The studio profs just tended to walk around and say "ok, looks good." Also, I think how rigorous the workload is depends on personal perception. If you're just sitting there in grad school with nothing else going on except maybe trying a new place to eat every now and then and going to work out, what else is there to do but architecture?
unqualified profs who have no interest in teaching and would rather piss off with their guaranteed salary then attend weekly desk-crits.
That's a good point, but I think it applies to any program, not just architecture.
hello, just saw this thread and i wanted to comment because i'm a drop out.
I am an architecture school drop out who was truly miserable during my time in school. I hated it, i felt like i had no freedom and hated that fact that architecture student were basically not allowed to enjoy their work. architecture for me was not something that need to be torture as many schools make it. most students spend 90 of their day indoors never really actually experiencing the world outside. I hated the snobbishness of it, i hated the long talks of concept by people who had never seen of experienced the thing that's they were talking about. I hated the professors who would be extremely hateful and nonconstructive to students even thought they themselves had never built anything of substance. In general, I hated the Idea architecture school as a whole. I dropped out of architecture school during my third year, DROPPING OUT OF ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL WAS THE BEST DECISION EVER MADE.
Since then, i have work in 4 different architecture firms as a designer and i'm now working on finishing my architectural licensing exams here in California. Due to the fact that i was already working when I left architecture school I had 5 years experience in an architecture firm as opposed to the 0 years my class mates had when they graduated. my class mates graduated into the recession and hence many had to wait another 2-3 years to really find an actual architecture job, many are still unemployed or have moved on to other things. recently, i decided i needed a change to continue my development elsewhere and hence started looking for a new job. From 10 resume/portfolios sent i received 8 call backs, went to 7 interviews, and got offered 6 jobs with a comfortable salary. Including 2 from what are considered top 20 firms in the US.
If something Is your passion you will not stop until you achieve your goal. I have tried to manage myself, not be greedy, and find the places that i think will best suit me in my personal and professional growth. I'm am now contemplating on going back to school to finish just for the fact that i would like to teach studio one day and help good designer who might be as unmotivated as i was at one point.
like I said, DROPPING OUT OF ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL WAS THE BEST DECISION EVER MADE.
I did a straight shot 5 years Masters with 10 semesters of studio. I honestly didn't take a single English or math core class, and the elective load for us was light, although I remember carrying between 18-23 credit hours, and most were the same. Our class started with 76 and graduated 25 of those, plus 10 M.Arch 1 2 and 3 year students we picked up in years 3 and 4. It was... brutal. I totally get why so many dropped out. I know one went to business school and is successful and well-paid. All his buildings were round. Sort of a round peg in the square hole of unrelenting modernism. Anyways, another was the greatest Italian jersey construction don's son. He kept getting kickedmout, money kept getting him back in. Finally a professor convinced him to switch to business as well, I believe he is in line to run a huge corrupt business out east. Good work if you are born into it. I think generally most students who switched are making more money.
I never once thought of quitting it was all in or bust. I was so young back in those days. When we are young we don't think about future consequences, because we have all the time in the world. Its been very satisfying to me, I do love what i do. Now that i have a family it is very hard for them both financially and just not being around much, and im one of the lucky ones who got re hired during the great recession. While less educated people are doing very well, and have larger families not to mention a huge house. Just my thought and advice is think of those you love or will love. have a good day.
I think Grimaldi pretty much has it nailed above. Another point to consider is the architectural graduates from middle class families with huge loans will not be able to set aside much if any money for their retirement accounts because of the loan payback that goes on for decades. They have impacted their future retirement as well as forgone five years of income while standing around in studio looking at some gossamer building that will never get built. Grimaldi bypassed all of this and will still get his license.