Any advice for those thinking about doing the same?
Just to be clear - I am NOT thinking about doing this. I'm just curious to hear the stories and experience of others.
gibbost
Apr 24, 24 4:41 pm
'Asking for a friend.' ??
I went out on my own shortly after getting licensed in 2010. It was equal parts liberating and terrifying. To know you really only need a couple of decent size projects to keep you afloat each year was nice. Like many, I was too focused on finding the work and completing it versus fully understanding the legal and financial underpinnings of owning your own practice.
Like briefly working for a developer or a [construction] contractor (which I also did in a past life), it's worth doing at least once to advance your understanding of how an architect can add value. Ultimately, I did end up back in commercial practice working for a mid-size firm. There are simply too many great opportunities that you'll miss out on being a small shop.
I don't regret it and do still find myself dreaming of days when I could be in full control of my paycheck and my client base.
Chad Miller
Apr 24, 24 5:09 pm
Thanks for sharing! I'm not 'asking for a friend' . I know it may seem that way but truly I'm not. My wife and I were talking about a few architects I know who started their owner firms and that brought up a bunch of questions.
midlander
Apr 25, 24 8:25 pm
i used to really envy the courage of my past colleagues who started their own firms in the great recession. now 15 years later i feel more comfortable with not having done so myself yet. it takes a broad vision and very long commitment to do it well.
midlander
Apr 25, 24 8:37 pm
Chad, is your wife also an architect? Interestingly everyone I know who went out on their own was married to an architect or related professional. (as am i).
Chad Miller
Apr 27, 24 1:36 pm
Nope. My wife is not an architect. I don't really socialize with other architects. I've tried in the past but all that happens is a everyone talks shop and enthusiastically laments something about the profession. I already do that for 40 hours a week, no need to do it outside of the office.
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 24, 24 6:01 pm
Why? Because I can’t work full time and nobody hires part time and I needed money.
Well dang. I forgot this site has a search function. ::blush:: Thanks for the link!
Everyday Architect
Apr 25, 24 2:14 pm
No shade from my end on this. I just remembered asking the question years ago and thought it would help you with yours by giving additional context/responses. Funny that we both felt the need to stipulate we are absolutely not looking to go out on our own ... I still don't have the desire to do it.
Josh Mings
Apr 25, 24 2:28 pm
I'm not sure I'd advise it unless you're slightly crazy.
Chad Miller
Apr 25, 24 2:28 pm
Thanks! Like you I have no desire to do it either.
smaarch
Apr 24, 24 7:18 pm
I've been on my own from early in my career (Licensed 1989) and also collaborated with a number on people / firms on and off over the years. Twice I was offered a partnership and both times it was a moving target that couldn't be pinned down. One day I got an out of the blue from a large concern asking to meet with me. They retained me to redesign their offices - conference rooms, board rooms, elevator, etc. I did this on my own while stuck at the second go no where partnership. The director of this concern then invited me for a conversation to submit a proposal for a rolling 5 year contract, I dropped this contract on my supposed partners conference table only to find a hundred excuses why I shouldn't do this work. Yea right. I handed in my resignation effective immediately. I grew quickly and was then award a 2nd 5 year contract all while picking up other clients. Weathered the 2008 financial debacle and it lasted until 2017 when it all came apart. Three big projects within a month got shelved and others never pulled the trigger. I was offered a position with a large firm for decent money and accepted it. This lasted until 2022 when they merged with a large firm and I was let go at the conclusion of $80million project I was responsible for. Bitter Sweet.
I'm back on my own and have been taking my time and being selective about projects. The calls also happen less now and further between. Have a small apartment building on the boards and just started a gut reno / redesign of an 1880's urban house for a young couple. Both heading in great directions design-wise.
Advice....and some observations. Pay attention to "generational" shifts in clients. Probably my biggest mistake was not developing relationships with a younger generation who had the interest and where-with-all to produce design. In the meantime long standing clients retired, some died, others moved on to other things in life. It's not a good feeling when projects get shelved and you look up from your desk and see the faces that are working for you and need a pay check. Many times they were paid while I wasn't....just the way it goes I guess. The professional "landscape" changed a lot over the years. Fees are not what they once were. The competition now is fierce in my area. Architects are pricing projects for fees I won't even get out of bed for. And yes pay your taxes on time
It solo now and I'm having fun again. At this point I guess I'm semi-retired and don't need, or want, a lot of work. The bottom line is I'm not a corporate kind of guy - and while it served it's purpose, I found it completely soul sucking. I'll likely never go back to a firm.
Richard Balkins
Apr 24, 24 11:31 pm
Pretty much, most real clients are going to be those in this age range 35 to 60. Not hard lines but general zone of age. Those over 60 are going to likely be small projects because they are usually retired and income is more limited. They tend to also be at a stage in life likely to downsize to smaller not bigger as their household shrinks as their children become adults, go to college, and start their life. Your low 30s and those in their 20s, just don't tend to have the money and history to obtain construction loans to do projects that warrants hiring an architect.
Some projects are too small to be worth an architect's time and usually won't need one. People need to be old enough to have a active career, usually with some income level substantially above starting wages/salaries, and saved up cash, developed a good or otherwise decent credit score, and yet are working in their career and be in a need. This is mostly true for residential.
For commercial projects, it can be true for smaller commercial projects but in larger commercial projects, you're dealing with companies and while a majority of staff would likely be pre-retirement age and the CEO would likely be someone in their upper 50s to 60s in most cases because of experience which would lead to sizable salaries. These and many institutions tend to alike in this respect. So in such regards, you need to connect with the company or institution. Small firms and start-ups will have difficulty there and usually are limited to residential and smaller commercial projects and smaller institutional projects so the money is more limited, usually. The workload would be about maybe 1-2 projects at a time per person. Maybe 3-7 projects a year depending on the project's scope of work, pace, etc. per person in the new start-up.
You need enough project to pay yourself, your business partners if any, and any employees you earn and generate profit revenues that are reserved for downturns in the economy. It can be rough.
As a building designer, there is a lot of similarities on this front as small architectural firms and solo practices. Often a lot of the same kinds of projects so competition can be rough. I agree with smaarch. For a number of reasons, going out on your own is daunting.
Chad, I understand you are not planning to do so. For the most part, 'you' is being used rhetorically as the sentence flow a little more natural.
Richard Balkins
Apr 24, 24 11:38 pm
Exceeding working on 1-2 projects at a time, I mean like during any given week, can dillute the amount of time devoted to each project to make meaningful progress on each project. This doesn't mean you aren't weaving more than 1-2 projects during a given month or a given quarter. It is about managing the project workload and progress in a meaningful manner. You want to make at least 15 hours of week of progress per project. Sometimes more and you have to adjust schedule. Really, unless you have employees doing the heavy lifting, you are likely to spend 60+ hours a week that may be spread 6 and sometimes 7 days a week to keep on meeting deadlines. Although office phone hours may be 5 days a week. Weekends may be needed to meet deadlines.
It is to give some real world expectations and what it can be when you have projects. When you don't have projects, you are spending time working to procure projects which you would be doing to some degree even when you have projects. Sometimes, it is like having two jobs. 1 full time job and a part time job at least to two full-time jobs when you are an owner.
If you are fortunate that you can be more selective on the projects you take and it is just you, it might not be quite like 1.5 FT equivalent in work load. It's up to how much money you need a year and how much you want to put into reserves for slow times to pay the bills and taxes and all.
smaarch
Apr 25, 24 12:33 am
It's late and I will re-read this in the morning but it mostly makes no sense to me. Practice, by it's very definition, is on your own terms. And I choose to practice on my own terms.
Richard Balkins
Apr 25, 24 1:08 am
I'm speaking generally not just a single case example. At your stage, you are probably able to command a higher fee than say when you are in your 30s or so. You are likely to face time you spend on the phone or email with clients, procuring the next project so you have money. If you are at an age where you collect retirement benefits and such, that may be one thing but that's not something you can collect on, usually, when you are in your 30s, 40s, or even in your 50s. You have to work for another 15 to 40 years before retiring. A practice is a business especially when you aren't a retiree with pension & retirement benefits and still practicing. You still have to earn an income from the practice to buy food, pay rent or taxes, and upkeep your license and lifestyle costs to be living.
It is something called life. You may still be raising a family. So the reality check is that a person may have to work and procure enough projects to sustain yourself and any firm partners you partner with in starting your own firm, (it isn't always solo) and any employees hired. I am talking about practices from solo practitioners to small firms of up to say 10-15.
Richard Balkins
Apr 25, 24 1:20 am
Whenever you provide a service customarily for remuneration, you are actually engaged in a business. All practices involves the business of architecture (or whatever your service are be it engineering, landscape design, interior design, building design, etc.). It is still a business. Just calling it a practice does not make it not a business. It is just 'business' using another word for it. Only time it is not a business is if you don't charge any money for your work than you are truly just practicing architecture when it is just a hobby.
smaarch
Apr 25, 24 2:20 am
Maybe I didn't make myself clear? I practice on my own terms.
Richard Balkins
Apr 25, 24 4:21 am
That's entirely fine. You are only one person out of how many. I am talking of general norms in a context more relevant to a majority that would be seeking going out on their own. Meaning, they are most likely not in the luxury to "practice on ones own terms". It isn't the real world reality for most.
The real world reality for most is you can't be too picky about who your clients are. You need money and your practice is your income because you have no other income source to support you. It is a living paycheck to paycheck from the clients you obtain who contacts you for services. For the most part, your pool of prospective clients to choose from are those that contact you unless you pickup on an RFP for some public project and submit a proposal in hopes to obtain the project. Private clients in general come by them contacting you. It isn't like they post in the newspaper, "Seeking an Architect" notice. It don't happen like that in most cases.
Your what, in your 60s. By this time, you're likely a well known reputable architect that you can pick and choose the projects and maybe have a pension or something that supports you so you don't actually NEED projects to live, eat, pay the bills, pay taxes, have a roof over your head, etc. You have that luxury. Most will not and the reality is they have to work hard to get projects, secure a contract, and so forth.
Richard Balkins
Apr 26, 24 9:18 am
To make my overall points clearer:
1) In general as a solo practicitioner are starting up a small firm with maybe 1 or 2 other 'partners', the work can be a lot more work. In these start-up phase, you will likely not have employees especially as a solo-practice. Often, you will likely not have some other income to really support you so you need to heavy a relatively steady stream of projects and thus paying clients paying. You will also need to be able to function even when there is a shit client that doesn't pay or lagging on payments.
2) Don't assume the work is going to be equal to or less than working for someone else. It is likely to be equal to or more work than working for someone else when you have a steady stream. Especially when you can't offload some of that work to employees because you don't have employees.
3) Relating to point 2, it is like having two jobs. You have the job as the "owner". All practices, even solo-practitioner practices are businesses. You have to administer the business and do stuff like "running the business" such as all the office stuff. You're the principal of the practice. You have to work to procure procure the next projects or batch of projects before the current projects are done so there is as little to no downtime. It is a pipeline you need to keep busy because that's how you get a steady income flow. You need to invoice and collect on payments due. You need to take care of tax matters, bills, rent, etc. Then you need to put time on actually performing projects and the time associated with actually doing the projects, etc. So it can be 60-90 hours a week. Sometimes, a little more than 90 hours a week. Running a part-time business in architecture & related fields is often a full-time job. Running a full-time business in architecture & related fields can and usually be an overtime job. Especially when you are a solo practice or small firm with less than 5 - 7 people. 2-3 partners and the rest being employees is about where you need to alleviate the work load, offloading the "practice of architecture" to employees and the partners who are not the "managing principal" of the small firm. A solo practice with employees might be a little smaller with 2-3 employees under you to distribute the workload. This way you can somewhat balance work & life. Otherwise it is your life or it basically consumes you.
4) It can be daunting and can be slow at first in getting actual projects.. The lack of financial security of working for a successful and well established firm can be very concerning and be a reason to NOT go out on your own. So you need to be brave and hopefully have some money saved up to ride the first 1-3 years. Taking incremental steps to get to hiring and expanding staff or adding business partners (especially if you start solo) to offload work.
Richard Balkins
Apr 26, 24 9:37 am
What made you decide to step out on your own?
Why did I decide to start my own business in building design? In that respect, being in a rural environment, there's not much in the world of architectural firms. Most were basically solo-practices and often didn't hire. I wasn't interested in living my life in the big cities. People tend to just treat you like a number not a person. It's kind of the cultural environment of the crowded cities where people are competing for everything from jobs to apartments to food at the grocery store. People tend to not like other people is a tone you may see, somewhat in big cities. You have the street gangs and drive by shootings, and riots, and all that shit. I been and lived in the big city like the Los Angeles metropolitan area where people kill people just because of skin color and shit. I don't want to be in that environment. I also have been more into running my own stuff than being someone else's "bitch" to do all the shit work they didn't want to do. Not exactly my personal desire to spend my life doing. Well, building design does as a consultant does mean you do projects for clients and you need to appease the client but you have opportunity to be creative in the work if you do so in a classy way. I didn't want to spend 20-30 years of my life doing window schedules and door schedule and drab stuff they didn't want to do. There's both practical and personal factors and some not mentioned.
Any advice for those thinking about doing the same?
The previous comment by me covers more to this question.
Wood Guy
Apr 25, 24 10:38 am
I've always aspired to be a business owner, and have had a small business of some sort since I was 15. (I'm 50 now.) But over time I realized that my skills and temperament weren't ideal and that I was better off working in a firm where I could focus on the things I'm good at, which doesn't include managing others.
I was poised to take over a residential design/build firm, along with a colleague, but I got really into "green" building and design and couldn't convince them to join me. At the same time, my mom and in-laws were aging (my dad had already died) and we wanted to be closer to them. A friend happened to be starting a super cool business not far from our parents, the first company in North America dedicated to panelized Passive House construction, and I came on as operations manager. They already had some of the details worked out but there was a lot to do and over the course of my 15 months there we invented many details and turned it into a successful business.
The plan was that once the shop was up and running, I would take over that shop and the founder would set up other shops around the US. But after three months there, it was clear to me that it wasn't a place I would be happy, for many different reasons, and I gave my notice. The founder said that for health reasons, if I left, he would close the business. So I stayed and he worked when he could. We did a lot of cool stuff and I trained my replacement.
Because we live in a rural area, there are few jobs available and those that exist are low-paying. My options as I saw them were to start a construction business or a design business. I'm arguably better at construction but the kinds of jobs I'm good at would require driving an hour or more each way every day. I decided to go with the other career I knew, designing homes and renovations, which meant doing projects 1-2 hours from home but I wouldn't have to go there as often. So that's what I did.
Since going out on my own about 10 years ago, twice I have tried starting a construction division, but I had to give both up; the distance to projects and the lack of qualified labor resulted in me working non-stop for less pay than my carpenters.
So I'm back to full-time design, wishing I had more training in a real architecture office, or that I had made different choices along the way so I would be an architect and not a designer, but I make decent money and like a lot of what I do. I need a change of some sort though; I can't work alone in my small home office for the next 20 years. I'm just not sure what that change will look like yet.
Advice: if you think you want to be an architect, follow a prescribed path. Don't live in a rural area where there is little work available. Have wealthy parents who don't need their kids to help them as they age.
Richard Balkins
Apr 25, 24 11:34 am
The last sentence isn't helpful. You don't get to choose your parents. It's not a choice you get to make who you are born to.
Wood Guy
Apr 25, 24 11:39 am
It's a joke, Rick.
Richard Balkins
Apr 25, 24 11:40 am
Okay.
sameolddoctor
Apr 25, 24 3:03 pm
Your advise is very sound, Wood Guy. I have followed a very non-traditional path and am getting close to 50 in couple years. Although I have enjoyed working with many different kinds of professionals, I wish I had taken the straight road, worked with more "traditional" firms, gotten a license in time etc etc. Things get harder once you have kids.
As for the "parents" comment, I advise anyone with a middle-class upbringing to NOT go the architecture route. If you want to make a living, you have to compromise the quality of work and your lifestyle. (Unless you are extremely talented, which I am not)
Richard Balkins
Apr 26, 24 12:24 am
That's perpetuating a caste system.
Richard Balkins
Apr 26, 24 12:31 am
Simple solution: subsidize undergraduate level degrees as in subsidizing tuition (whether on-campus, online, or hybrid) and the student housing. As undergraduate level education is practically mandatory for any career above minimum wage jobs that doesn't even pay enough to cover rent, food and basic utilities. Other option, experience-only based path to licensure in every state with employers actually hiring people without degrees.
smaarch
Apr 26, 24 1:27 am
Wood Guy - the first "office" I leased was a 4,000 sq ft factory space in an old 1800's Carpet mill. Fully 2/3's of it were a full blown wood and metal shop. The remainder was my studio. The thought at the time was everything I was designing seemed to come down to one or two key elements and I kept getting calls from bidding contractors about where to buy it. Well you don't - you get it fabricated. So I thought maybe I should just do this myself. Some interesting things resulted. A very special fireplace, a retractable steel glazed skylight in a valley roof on an old Tudor home, etc. Had a lot of fun but I also realized life is limited by how many "heartbeats" you have. There was not enough time in a day to run two somewhat distinct businesses at the same time. At the time I thought they were one and the same - and to some extent I still do. I think Architects need to come back to the problem of making, not designing.....I hate that word
Wood Guy
Apr 26, 24 10:19 am
Anyone who thinks we don't live in a caste system is not paying attention. While it's possible to jump castes, it's not easy.
Wood Guy
Apr 26, 24 10:26 am
Smaarch, very interesting. I have a large barn that I had hoped to turn into an amazing workshop, and still do to some degree. I started out, after engineering school, building furniture and cabinetry and that's still something I think I would enjoy doing but it's not an easy way to make a living, especially where I live--the higher-end markets are 1-2 hours away. I do keep my hand in construction, recently finishing an addition for my mother in law and currently redoing our bathroom, so I get some of the hands-on reward. And the aches and pains that go with it ;-)
Josh Mings
Apr 25, 24 11:09 am
I'm assuming nothing said by Richard makes sense, nor is it helpful.
I went out on my own a year ago. Someone recently reminded me that it had been a goal for ten years. Still, after two stops at firms where it was all weeks overtime with no overtime pay and another where the firm owner started treating me horribly after making recommendations to make the firm better (that he freaking hired me to do), I said enough. I left that position and started the work to do my own thing.
As mentioned, I want to practice my own way with processes, design, and other aspects that I feel are the best way to approach architecture. It's also a challenge for me. I want to see if I can make it—so far, so good, with a successful first year and things poised for some growth in year two. I currently have a part-time person who could turn into full-time towards year-end, and things are stable financially.
My advice: Talk to many people who have made the leap. Learn about pitfalls and successes, set up processes and procedures before you need them, and get an executive coach to help you focus. Also, focus on building relationships before you go out on your own—things would have been vastly different had I not built relationships over the years with clients I worked with at other firms, became friends with, and now we're partnering on projects. This goes for consultants, GCs, etc., too.
If anyone wants to chat more, feel free to reach out.
x-jla
Apr 25, 24 3:19 pm
The idea of building a business has always been something that appealed to me. I always knew that I wanted to own a business- even before I knew what I wanted to do. Growing up working class, it always made me uneasy thinking about having to punch a clock. I also loved the idea of being able to create a business. You can say that I was driven towards entrepreneurship by negative and positive feelings. Overall, I went out on my own right after graduating. It was the middle of the 08 economic collapse and no one was hiring. It seemed like the best time to get started since I was unemployed anyways. I switched over the landscape design because I was always more interested in landscape than architecture, and also because the market had some life left in it at the time. Most landscape projects are paid in savings-wealthy and middle class. Lenders weren’t lending, so... It was slow, but there was a pulse. It took about 3-5 years before I was “busy”. I eventually transitioned to design + build and then I got really really busy. It’s a lot of stress and work, but overall I have flexibility in my daily life that is very important to me. I also get to be outdoors about 1/2 of the time.
Richard Balkins
Apr 25, 24 3:22 pm
x-jla, (thumbs up) Good personal take as to why you got into running your own business.
whistler
Apr 25, 24 7:21 pm
I figured out that I had the means, the skills and the experience to do as well or better than what I was doing for someone else. It wasn't an arrogant decision really quite logical and saw that I had maybe 6 months worth of work which meant I had an income and then would have to hustle to get work after that. It was a pretty loose plan but worked out.
I'm curious what anyone's take is on starting out as a sole-proprietorship versus a business entity (like a LLC), on day one.
If anyone has thoughts or stories to share happy to hear.
Richard Balkins
Apr 28, 24 7:41 pm
In general, the cost to form an LLC isn't that much. Operating as a sole-proprietorship means you possess unlimited liability for everything. Use an LLC or some business entity that provides you some form of limited liability provision which limits your personal liability for a number of things.
An LLC won't necessarily protect you from professional liability but it limits personal liability for things like contractual disputes and other liability issues.
smaarch
Apr 29, 24 12:07 am
Maybe others have a different view - I don't know. Been a sole practitioner for 40 years - it never mattered to me. My view has always been - just do the right thing. It has served me well.
Richard Balkins
Apr 29, 24 8:39 am
You can be effectively a sole-practictioner and be an LLC. The key is the technicality of the business legal structure. It provides some benefits in protection in lawsuits because those suing isn't always rational or in it to do the right thing. I am referring to the business entity structure of "sole-proprietorship" in my reply just above yours, not whether you are practicing in a group or by yourself. It is to limit legal exposures in some capacity. Business entity types won't do much for tort, negligence, and malpractice. It would do something for contracts. Contracts in the name of the business (LLC, Inc. , LLP, etc.) versus in your same or mere ABN (aka dba). Certain business entities will shield you personally for contractual stuff in many cases. Although not bulletproof.
Josh Mings
Apr 29, 24 9:53 am
LLC - protect your ass(ets)
Wood Guy
Apr 29, 24 9:58 am
I have had many different sole proprietorships and LLCs, but my current business is an LLC filing as an S-Corp. The advantages of that are that I get a W2, which lenders like, and that my FICA taxes are based only on my salary, not my full income; I only have to pay income tax on my net profit. That saves me a few thousand dollars a year.
Josh Mings
Apr 29, 24 10:09 am
This is how I have mine set up as well, but PLLC (required in IL and I think some other states to have the Professional in front)
Wood Guy
Apr 29, 24 10:29 am
Not if you're not a professional! (I'm a designer.) ;-)
Josh Mings
Apr 29, 24 12:18 pm
Honestly with the quality of work you do and your knowledge, I consistently forget that you're not licensed.
Wood Guy
Apr 29, 24 2:03 pm
Thanks Josh, I appreciate that! And I don't mean to harp on it here.
bowling_ball
Apr 28, 24 11:18 pm
What made you decide to step out on your own?
Not so much go out on my own, but buy out the firm with two co-workers. Preparation met opportunity; the three of us has been doing most of the tasks required to be owners, from getting work, managing projects, clients, and staff, organizing teams and proposals, basically everything except the financial books. When the previous owners expressed an interest in retiring, we knew we'd not have the same opportunity again, and took our chances.
Any advice for those thinking about doing the same?
Getting the job really is priority numbers one through three. Every day is completely different than the one before, which is both exciting and exhausting. I really don't have any advice except that if your heart's not in it, I'd imagine it would be a big struggle. I was starting to burn out as an employee, but becoming my own boss made the work meaningful again in a way that goes beyond financial. When your actual name is tied to a physical structure, you tend to have higher expectations of yourself. At least it does for me.
smaarch
Apr 29, 24 12:11 am
Well no - you are buying the financial books and will own everything about them. One of the things about taking over a firm is the relationships with existing clients. Your post indicates you are are looking at this is as purely a money transaction. I have never seen that happen. Maybe that's just me but I doubt it.
bowling_ball
Apr 29, 24 11:02 am
So you didn't read my full post? Got it.
bennyc
Apr 30, 24 10:48 am
The reason I went out on my own was to be able to learn more on the field and just be a better overall architect. I also didn't like the office environment, didn't like that I was surround by "architects" who were cluless on how things get built. I also dont like collaboration or like working with people who are not on same page as you or smarter then you, so for that reason I was out and on my own. My biggest reason however was the low pay epidemic and how most architecture firms treat their employees, on pay, long hours etc.
My advice to young folks, try to get at least 5 to 10 years experience working for someone, and move around as much as you can to gain different exposures, then bounce otherwise this field and the people in it will drag you down.
Bench
Apr 30, 24 10:53 am
bennyc, can i ask if you are still in the industry as sole-prop or similar? or moved out of it?
bennyc
Apr 30, 24 12:22 pm
I am still in Industry, I am a licensed Architect in 4 states (certified NCARB), and also licensed GC in 3 States. I am a sole proprietor with part time drafting help on the architecture side, and I also run my own design build firm as a general contractor. I prefer the master builder approach to architecture, where I am the architect and builder and most of my projects are this way.
I am an Architect true and through, I did not move out or moving out of industry, I am however taking a bigger bite of projects and taking control of entire process.
Chad Miller
Apr 30, 24 1:15 pm
bennyc wrote:
"I also don't like collaboration or like working with people who are not on same page as you or smarter then you, "
That last part is very concerning.
Richard Balkins
Apr 30, 24 2:32 pm
Was it a misspell due to some "autowrong" thing? I would have an issue if they were obviously dumber. If they were smarter or more knowledgeable in something, sure. However, the only time I might have an issue is mainly those with a condescending asshole attitude. There's a time a place for that. Of course, tone matters when working together so yeah, workability and personality compatibility (note: I am not saying the same personality... it doesn't have to be). However, teamwork means setting aside that ego but also note: there is no "I" in team, but there is an "I" in dickhead. (Incorporating a couple lines in: Bad Boys for Life)
For those of you who started your own firm:
What made you decide to step out on your own?
Any advice for those thinking about doing the same?
Just to be clear - I am NOT thinking about doing this. I'm just curious to hear the stories and experience of others.
'Asking for a friend.' ??
I went out on my own shortly after getting licensed in 2010. It was equal parts liberating and terrifying. To know you really only need a couple of decent size projects to keep you afloat each year was nice. Like many, I was too focused on finding the work and completing it versus fully understanding the legal and financial underpinnings of owning your own practice.
Like briefly working for a developer or a [construction] contractor (which I also did in a past life), it's worth doing at least once to advance your understanding of how an architect can add value. Ultimately, I did end up back in commercial practice working for a mid-size firm. There are simply too many great opportunities that you'll miss out on being a small shop.
I don't regret it and do still find myself dreaming of days when I could be in full control of my paycheck and my client base.
Thanks for sharing! I'm not 'asking for a friend' . I know it may seem that way but truly I'm not. My wife and I were talking about a few architects I know who started their owner firms and that brought up a bunch of questions.
i used to really envy the courage of my past colleagues who started their own firms in the great recession. now 15 years later i feel more comfortable with not having done so myself yet. it takes a broad vision and very long commitment to do it well.
Chad, is your wife also an architect? Interestingly everyone I know who went out on their own was married to an architect or related professional. (as am i).
Nope. My wife is not an architect. I don't really socialize with other architects. I've tried in the past but all that happens is a everyone talks shop and enthusiastically laments something about the profession. I already do that for 40 hours a week, no need to do it outside of the office.
Why? Because I can’t work full time and nobody hires part time and I needed money.
Advice? Pay your taxes on time.
https://archinect.com/forum/th...
Well dang. I forgot this site has a search function. ::blush:: Thanks for the link!
No shade from my end on this. I just remembered asking the question years ago and thought it would help you with yours by giving additional context/responses. Funny that we both felt the need to stipulate we are absolutely not looking to go out on our own ... I still don't have the desire to do it.
I'm not sure I'd advise it unless you're slightly crazy.
Thanks! Like you I have no desire to do it either.
I've been on my own from early in my career (Licensed 1989) and also collaborated with a number on people / firms on and off over the years. Twice I was offered a partnership and both times it was a moving target that couldn't be pinned down. One day I got an out of the blue from a large concern asking to meet with me. They retained me to redesign their offices - conference rooms, board rooms, elevator, etc. I did this on my own while stuck at the second go no where partnership. The director of this concern then invited me for a conversation to submit a proposal for a rolling 5 year contract, I dropped this contract on my supposed partners conference table only to find a hundred excuses why I shouldn't do this work. Yea right. I handed in my resignation effective immediately. I grew quickly and was then award a 2nd 5 year contract all while picking up other clients. Weathered the 2008 financial debacle and it lasted until 2017 when it all came apart. Three big projects within a month got shelved and others never pulled the trigger. I was offered a position with a large firm for decent money and accepted it. This lasted until 2022 when they merged with a large firm and I was let go at the conclusion of $80million project I was responsible for. Bitter Sweet.
I'm back on my own and have been taking my time and being selective about projects. The calls also happen less now and further between. Have a small apartment building on the boards and just started a gut reno / redesign of an 1880's urban house for a young couple. Both heading in great directions design-wise.
Advice....and some observations.
Pay attention to "generational" shifts in clients. Probably my biggest mistake was not developing relationships with a younger generation who had the interest and where-with-all to produce design. In the meantime long standing clients retired, some died, others moved on to other things in life.
It's not a good feeling when projects get shelved and you look up from your desk and see the faces that are working for you and need a pay check. Many times they were paid while I wasn't....just the way it goes I guess.
The professional "landscape" changed a lot over the years. Fees are not what they once were. The competition now is fierce in my area. Architects are pricing projects for fees I won't even get out of bed for.
And yes pay your taxes on time
It solo now and I'm having fun again. At this point I guess I'm semi-retired and don't need, or want, a lot of work.
The bottom line is I'm not a corporate kind of guy - and while it served it's purpose, I found it completely soul sucking. I'll likely never go back to a firm.
Pretty much, most real clients are going to be those in this age range 35 to 60. Not hard lines but general zone of age. Those over 60 are going to likely be small projects because they are usually retired and income is more limited. They tend to also be at a stage in life likely to downsize to smaller not bigger as their household shrinks as their children become adults, go to college, and start their life. Your low 30s and those in their 20s, just don't tend to have the money and history to obtain construction loans to do projects that warrants hiring an architect.
Some projects are too small to be worth an architect's time and usually won't need one. People need to be old enough to have a active career, usually with some income level substantially above starting wages/salaries, and saved up cash, developed a good or otherwise decent credit score, and yet are working in their career and be in a need. This is mostly true for residential.
For commercial projects, it can be true for smaller commercial projects but in larger commercial projects, you're dealing with companies and while a majority of staff would likely be pre-retirement age and the CEO would likely be someone in their upper 50s to 60s in most cases because of experience which would lead to sizable salaries. These and many institutions tend to alike in this respect. So in such regards, you need to connect with the company or institution. Small firms and start-ups will have difficulty there and usually are limited to residential and smaller commercial projects and smaller institutional projects so the money is more limited, usually. The workload would be about maybe 1-2 projects at a time per person. Maybe 3-7 projects a year depending on the project's scope of work, pace, etc. per person in the new start-up.
You need enough project to pay yourself, your business partners if any, and any employees you earn and generate profit revenues that are reserved for downturns in the economy. It can be rough.
As a building designer, there is a lot of similarities on this front as small architectural firms and solo practices. Often a lot of the same kinds of projects so competition can be rough. I agree with smaarch. For a number of reasons, going out on your own is daunting.
Chad, I understand you are not planning to do so. For the most part, 'you' is being used rhetorically as the sentence flow a little more natural.
Exceeding working on 1-2 projects at a time, I mean like during any given week, can dillute the amount of time devoted to each project to make meaningful progress on each project. This doesn't mean you aren't weaving more than 1-2 projects during a given month or a given quarter. It is about managing the project workload and progress in a meaningful manner. You want to make at least 15 hours of week of progress per project. Sometimes more and you have to adjust schedule. Really, unless you have employees doing the heavy lifting, you are likely to spend 60+ hours a week that may be spread 6 and sometimes 7 days a week to keep on meeting deadlines. Although office phone hours may be 5 days a week. Weekends may be needed to meet deadlines.
It is to give some real world expectations and what it can be when you have projects. When you don't have projects, you are spending time working to procure projects which you would be doing to some degree even when you have projects. Sometimes, it is like having two jobs. 1 full time job and a part time job at least to two full-time jobs when you are an owner.
If you are fortunate that you can be more selective on the projects you take and it is just you, it might not be quite like 1.5 FT equivalent in work load. It's up to how much money you need a year and how much you want to put into reserves for slow times to pay the bills and taxes and all.
It's late and I will re-read this in the morning but it mostly makes no sense to me. Practice, by it's very definition, is on your own terms. And I choose to practice on my own terms.
I'm speaking generally not just a single case example. At your stage, you are probably able to command a higher fee than say when you are in your 30s or so. You are likely to face time you spend on the phone or email with clients, procuring the next project so you have money. If you are at an age where you collect retirement benefits and such, that may be one thing but that's not something you can collect on, usually, when you are in your 30s, 40s, or even in your 50s. You have to work for another 15 to 40 years before retiring. A practice is a business especially when you aren't a retiree with pension & retirement benefits and still practicing. You still have to earn an income from the practice to buy food, pay rent or taxes, and upkeep your license and lifestyle costs to be living.
It is something called life. You may still be raising a family. So the reality check is that a person may have to work and procure enough projects to sustain yourself and any firm partners you partner with in starting your own firm, (it isn't always solo) and any employees hired. I am talking about practices from solo practitioners to small firms of up to say 10-15.
Whenever you provide a service customarily for remuneration, you are actually engaged in a business. All practices involves the business of architecture (or whatever your service are be it engineering, landscape design, interior design, building design, etc.). It is still a business. Just calling it a practice does not make it not a business. It is just 'business' using another word for it. Only time it is not a business is if you don't charge any money for your work than you are truly just practicing architecture when it is just a hobby.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear?
I practice on my own terms.
That's entirely fine. You are only one person out of how many. I am talking of general norms in a context more relevant to a majority that would be seeking going out on their own. Meaning, they are most likely not in the luxury to "practice on ones own terms". It isn't the real world reality for most.
The real world reality for most is you can't be too picky about who your clients are. You need money and your practice is your income because you have no other income source to support you. It is a living paycheck to paycheck from the clients you obtain who contacts you for services. For the most part, your pool of prospective clients to choose from are those that contact you unless you pickup on an RFP for some public project and submit a proposal in hopes to obtain the project. Private clients in general come by them contacting you. It isn't like they post in the newspaper, "Seeking an Architect" notice. It don't happen like that in most cases.
Your what, in your 60s. By this time, you're likely a well known reputable architect that you can pick and choose the projects and maybe have a pension or something that supports you so you don't actually NEED projects to live, eat, pay the bills, pay taxes, have a roof over your head, etc. You have that luxury. Most will not and the reality is they have to work hard to get projects, secure a contract, and so forth.
To make my overall points clearer:
1) In general as a solo practicitioner are starting up a small firm with maybe 1 or 2 other 'partners', the work can be a lot more work. In these start-up phase, you will likely not have employees especially as a solo-practice. Often, you will likely not have some other income to really support you so you need to heavy a relatively steady stream of projects and thus paying clients paying. You will also need to be able to function even when there is a shit client that doesn't pay or lagging on payments.
2) Don't assume the work is going to be equal to or less than working for someone else. It is likely to be equal to or more work than working for someone else when you have a steady stream. Especially when you can't offload some of that work to employees because you don't have employees.
3) Relating to point 2, it is like having two jobs. You have the job as the "owner". All practices, even solo-practitioner practices are businesses. You have to administer the business and do stuff like "running the business" such as all the office stuff. You're the principal of the practice. You have to work to procure procure the next projects or batch of projects before the current projects are done so there is as little to no downtime. It is a pipeline you need to keep busy because that's how you get a steady income flow. You need to invoice and collect on payments due. You need to take care of tax matters, bills, rent, etc. Then you need to put time on actually performing projects and the time associated with actually doing the projects, etc. So it can be 60-90 hours a week. Sometimes, a little more than 90 hours a week. Running a part-time business in architecture & related fields is often a full-time job. Running a full-time business in architecture & related fields can and usually be an overtime job. Especially when you are a solo practice or small firm with less than 5 - 7 people. 2-3 partners and the rest being employees is about where you need to alleviate the work load, offloading the "practice of architecture" to employees and the partners who are not the "managing principal" of the small firm. A solo practice with employees might be a little smaller with 2-3 employees under you to distribute the workload. This way you can somewhat balance work & life. Otherwise it is your life or it basically consumes you.
4) It can be daunting and can be slow at first in getting actual projects.. The lack of financial security of working for a successful and well established firm can be very concerning and be a reason to NOT go out on your own. So you need to be brave and hopefully have some money saved up to ride the first 1-3 years. Taking incremental steps to get to hiring and expanding staff or adding business partners (especially if you start solo) to offload work.
What made you decide to step out on your own?
Why did I decide to start my own business in building design? In that respect, being in a rural environment, there's not much in the world of architectural firms. Most were basically solo-practices and often didn't hire. I wasn't interested in living my life in the big cities. People tend to just treat you like a number not a person. It's kind of the cultural environment of the crowded cities where people are competing for everything from jobs to apartments to food at the grocery store. People tend to not like other people is a tone you may see, somewhat in big cities. You have the street gangs and drive by shootings, and riots, and all that shit. I been and lived in the big city like the Los Angeles metropolitan area where people kill people just because of skin color and shit. I don't want to be in that environment. I also have been more into running my own stuff than being someone else's "bitch" to do all the shit work they didn't want to do. Not exactly my personal desire to spend my life doing. Well, building design does as a consultant does mean you do projects for clients and you need to appease the client but you have opportunity to be creative in the work if you do so in a classy way. I didn't want to spend 20-30 years of my life doing window schedules and door schedule and drab stuff they didn't want to do. There's both practical and personal factors and some not mentioned.
Any advice for those thinking about doing the same?
The previous comment by me covers more to this question.
I've always aspired to be a business owner, and have had a small business of some sort since I was 15. (I'm 50 now.) But over time I realized that my skills and temperament weren't ideal and that I was better off working in a firm where I could focus on the things I'm good at, which doesn't include managing others.
I was poised to take over a residential design/build firm, along with a colleague, but I got really into "green" building and design and couldn't convince them to join me. At the same time, my mom and in-laws were aging (my dad had already died) and we wanted to be closer to them. A friend happened to be starting a super cool business not far from our parents, the first company in North America dedicated to panelized Passive House construction, and I came on as operations manager. They already had some of the details worked out but there was a lot to do and over the course of my 15 months there we invented many details and turned it into a successful business.
The plan was that once the shop was up and running, I would take over that shop and the founder would set up other shops around the US. But after three months there, it was clear to me that it wasn't a place I would be happy, for many different reasons, and I gave my notice. The founder said that for health reasons, if I left, he would close the business. So I stayed and he worked when he could. We did a lot of cool stuff and I trained my replacement.
Because we live in a rural area, there are few jobs available and those that exist are low-paying. My options as I saw them were to start a construction business or a design business. I'm arguably better at construction but the kinds of jobs I'm good at would require driving an hour or more each way every day. I decided to go with the other career I knew, designing homes and renovations, which meant doing projects 1-2 hours from home but I wouldn't have to go there as often. So that's what I did.
Since going out on my own about 10 years ago, twice I have tried starting a construction division, but I had to give both up; the distance to projects and the lack of qualified labor resulted in me working non-stop for less pay than my carpenters.
So I'm back to full-time design, wishing I had more training in a real architecture office, or that I had made different choices along the way so I would be an architect and not a designer, but I make decent money and like a lot of what I do. I need a change of some sort though; I can't work alone in my small home office for the next 20 years. I'm just not sure what that change will look like yet.
Advice: if you think you want to be an architect, follow a prescribed path. Don't live in a rural area where there is little work available. Have wealthy parents who don't need their kids to help them as they age.
The last sentence isn't helpful. You don't get to choose your parents. It's not a choice you get to make who you are born to.
It's a joke, Rick.
Okay.
Your advise is very sound, Wood Guy. I have followed a very non-traditional path and am getting close to 50 in couple years. Although I have enjoyed working with many different kinds of professionals, I wish I had taken the straight road, worked with more "traditional" firms, gotten a license in time etc etc. Things get harder once you have kids.
As for the "parents" comment, I advise anyone with a middle-class upbringing to NOT go the architecture route. If you want to make a living, you have to compromise the quality of work and your lifestyle. (Unless you are extremely talented, which I am not)
That's perpetuating a caste system.
Simple solution: subsidize undergraduate level degrees as in subsidizing tuition (whether on-campus, online, or hybrid) and the student housing. As undergraduate level education is practically mandatory for any career above minimum wage jobs that doesn't even pay enough to cover rent, food and basic utilities. Other option, experience-only based path to licensure in every state with employers actually hiring people without degrees.
Wood Guy - the first "office" I leased was a 4,000 sq ft factory space in an old 1800's Carpet mill. Fully 2/3's of it were a full blown wood and metal shop. The remainder was my studio. The thought at the time was everything I was designing seemed to come down to one or two key elements and I kept getting calls from bidding contractors about where to buy it. Well you don't - you get it fabricated. So I thought maybe I should just do this myself. Some interesting things resulted. A very special fireplace, a retractable steel glazed skylight in a valley roof on an old Tudor home, etc. Had a lot of fun but I also realized life is limited by how many "heartbeats" you have. There was not enough time in a day to run two somewhat distinct businesses at the same time. At the time I thought they were one and the same - and to some extent I still do. I think Architects need to come back to the problem of making, not designing.....I hate that word
Anyone who thinks we don't live in a caste system is not paying attention. While it's possible to jump castes, it's not easy.
Smaarch, very interesting. I have a large barn that I had hoped to turn into an amazing workshop, and still do to some degree. I started out, after engineering school, building furniture and cabinetry and that's still something I think I would enjoy doing but it's not an easy way to make a living, especially where I live--the higher-end markets are 1-2 hours away. I do keep my hand in construction, recently finishing an addition for my mother in law and currently redoing our bathroom, so I get some of the hands-on reward. And the aches and pains that go with it ;-)
I'm assuming nothing said by Richard makes sense, nor is it helpful.
I went out on my own a year ago. Someone recently reminded me that it had been a goal for ten years. Still, after two stops at firms where it was all weeks overtime with no overtime pay and another where the firm owner started treating me horribly after making recommendations to make the firm better (that he freaking hired me to do), I said enough. I left that position and started the work to do my own thing.
As mentioned, I want to practice my own way with processes, design, and other aspects that I feel are the best way to approach architecture. It's also a challenge for me. I want to see if I can make it—so far, so good, with a successful first year and things poised for some growth in year two. I currently have a part-time person who could turn into full-time towards year-end, and things are stable financially.
My advice: Talk to many people who have made the leap. Learn about pitfalls and successes, set up processes and procedures before you need them, and get an executive coach to help you focus. Also, focus on building relationships before you go out on your own—things would have been vastly different had I not built relationships over the years with clients I worked with at other firms, became friends with, and now we're partnering on projects. This goes for consultants, GCs, etc., too.
If anyone wants to chat more, feel free to reach out.
The idea of building a business has always been something that appealed to me. I always knew that I wanted to own a business- even before I knew what I wanted to do. Growing up working class, it always made me uneasy thinking about having to punch a clock. I also loved the idea of being able to create a business. You can say that I was driven towards entrepreneurship by negative and positive feelings. Overall, I went out on my own right after graduating. It was the middle of the 08 economic collapse and no one was hiring. It seemed like the best time to get started since I was unemployed anyways. I switched over the landscape design because I was always more interested in landscape than architecture, and also because the market had some life left in it at the time. Most landscape projects are paid in savings-wealthy and middle class. Lenders weren’t lending, so... It was slow, but there was a pulse. It took about 3-5 years before I was “busy”. I eventually transitioned to design + build and then I got really really busy. It’s a lot of stress and work, but overall I have flexibility in my daily life that is very important to me. I also get to be outdoors about 1/2 of the time.
x-jla, (thumbs up) Good personal take as to why you got into running your own business.
I figured out that I had the means, the skills and the experience to do as well or better than what I was doing for someone else. It wasn't an arrogant decision really quite logical and saw that I had maybe 6 months worth of work which meant I had an income and then would have to hustle to get work after that. It was a pretty loose plan but worked out.
some interviews I did nearly a decade ago:
ARCHITECTURAL STARTUP: PAUL LEWIS
ARCHITECTURAL STARTUP: BRAD CLOEPFIL
ARCHITECTURAL STARTUP: DAN WOOD
I'm curious what anyone's take is on starting out as a sole-proprietorship versus a business entity (like a LLC), on day one.
If anyone has thoughts or stories to share happy to hear.
In general, the cost to form an LLC isn't that much. Operating as a sole-proprietorship means you possess unlimited liability for everything. Use an LLC or some business entity that provides you some form of limited liability provision which limits your personal liability for a number of things.
An LLC won't necessarily protect you from professional liability but it limits personal liability for things like contractual disputes and other liability issues.
Maybe others have a different view - I don't know. Been a sole practitioner for 40 years - it never mattered to me. My view has always been - just do the right thing. It has served me well.
You can be effectively a sole-practictioner and be an LLC. The key is the technicality of the business legal structure. It provides some benefits in protection in lawsuits because those suing isn't always rational or in it to do the right thing. I am referring to the business entity structure of "sole-proprietorship" in my reply just above yours, not whether you are practicing in a group or by yourself. It is to limit legal exposures in some capacity. Business entity types won't do much for tort, negligence, and malpractice. It would do something for contracts. Contracts in the name of the business (LLC, Inc. , LLP, etc.) versus in your same or mere ABN (aka dba). Certain business entities will shield you personally for contractual stuff in many cases. Although not bulletproof.
LLC - protect your ass(ets)
I have had many different sole proprietorships and LLCs, but my current business is an LLC filing as an S-Corp. The advantages of that are that I get a W2, which lenders like, and that my FICA taxes are based only on my salary, not my full income; I only have to pay income tax on my net profit. That saves me a few thousand dollars a year.
This is how I have mine set up as well, but PLLC (required in IL and I think some other states to have the Professional in front)
Not if you're not a professional! (I'm a designer.) ;-)
Honestly with the quality of work you do and your knowledge, I consistently forget that you're not licensed.
Thanks Josh, I appreciate that! And I don't mean to harp on it here.
What made you decide to step out on your own?
Not so much go out on my own, but buy out the firm with two co-workers. Preparation met opportunity; the three of us has been doing most of the tasks required to be owners, from getting work, managing projects, clients, and staff, organizing teams and proposals, basically everything except the financial books. When the previous owners expressed an interest in retiring, we knew we'd not have the same opportunity again, and took our chances.
Any advice for those thinking about doing the same?
Getting the job really is priority numbers one through three. Every day is completely different than the one before, which is both exciting and exhausting. I really don't have any advice except that if your heart's not in it, I'd imagine it would be a big struggle. I was starting to burn out as an employee, but becoming my own boss made the work meaningful again in a way that goes beyond financial. When your actual name is tied to a physical structure, you tend to have higher expectations of yourself. At least it does for me.
Well no - you are buying the financial books and will own everything about them.
One of the things about taking over a firm is the relationships with existing clients. Your post indicates you are are looking at this is as purely a money transaction. I have never seen that happen.
Maybe that's just me but I doubt it.
So you didn't read my full post? Got it.
The reason I went out on my own was to be able to learn more on the field and just be a better overall architect. I also didn't like the office environment, didn't like that I was surround by "architects" who were cluless on how things get built. I also dont like collaboration or like working with people who are not on same page as you or smarter then you, so for that reason I was out and on my own. My biggest reason however was the low pay epidemic and how most architecture firms treat their employees, on pay, long hours etc.
My advice to young folks, try to get at least 5 to 10 years experience working for someone, and move around as much as you can to gain different exposures, then bounce otherwise this field and the people in it will drag you down.
bennyc, can i ask if you are still in the industry as sole-prop or similar? or moved out of it?
I am still in Industry, I am a licensed Architect in 4 states (certified NCARB), and also licensed GC in 3 States. I am a sole proprietor with part time drafting help on the architecture side, and I also run my own design build firm as a general contractor. I prefer the master builder approach to architecture, where I am the architect and builder and most of my projects are this way.
I am an Architect true and through, I did not move out or moving out of industry, I am however taking a bigger bite of projects and taking control of entire process.
bennyc wrote:
"I also don't like collaboration or like working with people who are not on same page as you or smarter then you, "
That last part is very concerning.
Was it a misspell due to some "autowrong" thing? I would have an issue if they were obviously dumber. If they were smarter or more knowledgeable in something, sure. However, the only time I might have an issue is mainly those with a condescending asshole attitude. There's a time a place for that. Of course, tone matters when working together so yeah, workability and personality compatibility (note: I am not saying the same personality... it doesn't have to be). However, teamwork means setting aside that ego but also note: there is no "I" in team, but there is an "I" in dickhead. (Incorporating a couple lines in: Bad Boys for Life)