Wondering what the community's thoughts were about doing pro-bono work but NOT stamping. I know this topic's been discussed before and the consensus was mixed: sketches was the line for some while drawings w/o stamp for the line for others. Technically, every document we produce is our instrument of service and the liability is solely on the professional so what would liability mean w/ or w/o stamp in this case? I know none of us are lawyers but maybe there are some helpful anecdotes here.
Chad Miller
Apr 22, 24 12:29 pm
Don't do it unless you have a letter on indemnification from the client.
Non Sequitur
Apr 22, 24 12:33 pm
letters of indemnifications don't mean shit in my area... There is no get out of jail free cards.
Chad Miller
Apr 22, 24 12:41 pm
Is G4tor in Canada? Or a limitation of liability clause in the contract.
reallynotmyname
Apr 22, 24 1:00 pm
It can vary from state to state. Another thing one should really ask a lawyer to look at, although a good liability insurance agent could probably tell you. I know in our home office US state, we have to document that the limitation of liability was mutually agreed upon and the specific dollar amount was arrived at via negotiation. A limitation of liability buried in a contract and not expressly pointed out to the other party is frowned upon in the states where most of our work is.
G4tor
Apr 22, 24 4:37 pm
Not in Canada, US (California specifically
)
Richard Balkins
Apr 26, 24 6:55 pm
Check with your PLI insurance or a lawyer to check with California. Certain clauses may not be accepted by some judges in jurisdictions. So it's can be an "if". Sometimes a contract clause is deemed unenforceable but the rest of the contract is. So check that out.
Non Sequitur
Apr 22, 24 12:34 pm
Why are you working for free?
you should at least charge to cover your insurance premiums
Chad Miller
Apr 22, 24 12:42 pm
Volunteer work? I'll do pro-bono stuff sometimes if the cause is something I support. That or if I help out family. Regardless, I have a indemnification letter or a contract with a limitation of liability.
G4tor
Apr 22, 24 2:23 pm
Yes, it's volunteer work. Specifically, it's for an organization that I've been part of for many years. It's only recently that they acquired a new building that they want me to help with.
reallynotmyname
Apr 22, 24 12:34 pm
Work with the client on a limitation of liability clause in their contract with you. Since you are working for free, come to a mutual agreement with the client to limit your liability to a small amount like a few thousand dollars.
proto
Apr 22, 24 3:04 pm
Is this an exempt structure? [re: stamping]
Nothing wrong with pro bono. But be a pro about it.
You should have a contract as if you were paid. Indicate the tasks you are doing for the scope & indicate those that you may be purposely not doing ("hvac equip sizing/design by others" or whatever). It's not a carte blanche to suck all your free time on any task the owner may come up with. I'm sure the entity will be quite pleased that you are doing this at all. Note if you delegate structural design to another professional. Notate "Not for permit/construction" on drawings if needed. The fact that you are not getting paid shouldn't obviate your responsibility to do the best you are able or assume the liability you normally might in asserting a design for a client. Otherwise, why is this effort of any value to the client? I would hope that you are doing work of value to the client & that it is professional in its delivery. If that's the case, why would you not assume the liability as a professional? And your risk on SD level stuff is pretty low...doing permit docs is where your risk starts to move beyond the extent of fee you charge.
Actual exposure to legitimate risk can be itemized in your contract, but my guess is that you wouldn't usually take responsibility for things like existing conditions or shoring or contractor execution, etc, anyway.
just my $0.02
luvu
Apr 23, 24 11:44 pm
Just because it’s a free or massively reduced fee service, make sure you have a contract with the scope of service , termination clause , reimbursement all that jazz etc ..as you would normally have in a fee-service.
Also, never take on any consultants !! this should be provided by a client. Our company has a policy of not doing CA phase on pro-bono … not going to bore any one here with the details.
Wondering what the community's thoughts were about doing pro-bono work but NOT stamping. I know this topic's been discussed before and the consensus was mixed: sketches was the line for some while drawings w/o stamp for the line for others. Technically, every document we produce is our instrument of service and the liability is solely on the professional so what would liability mean w/ or w/o stamp in this case? I know none of us are lawyers but maybe there are some helpful anecdotes here.
Don't do it unless you have a letter on indemnification from the client.
letters of indemnifications don't mean shit in my area... There is no get out of jail free cards.
Is G4tor in Canada? Or a limitation of liability clause in the contract.
It can vary from state to state. Another thing one should really ask a lawyer to look at, although a good liability insurance agent could probably tell you. I know in our home office US state, we have to document that the limitation of liability was mutually agreed upon and the specific dollar amount was arrived at via negotiation. A limitation of liability buried in a contract and not expressly pointed out to the other party is frowned upon in the states where most of our work is.
Not in Canada, US (California specifically )
Check with your PLI insurance or a lawyer to check with California. Certain clauses may not be accepted by some judges in jurisdictions. So it's can be an "if". Sometimes a contract clause is deemed unenforceable but the rest of the contract is. So check that out.
Why are you working for free?
you should at least charge to cover your insurance premiums
Volunteer work? I'll do pro-bono stuff sometimes if the cause is something I support. That or if I help out family. Regardless, I have a indemnification letter or a contract with a limitation of liability.
Yes, it's volunteer work. Specifically, it's for an organization that I've been part of for many years. It's only recently that they acquired a new building that they want me to help with.
Work with the client on a limitation of liability clause in their contract with you. Since you are working for free, come to a mutual agreement with the client to limit your liability to a small amount like a few thousand dollars.
Is this an exempt structure? [re: stamping]
Nothing wrong with pro bono. But be a pro about it.
You should have a contract as if you were paid. Indicate the tasks you are doing for the scope & indicate those that you may be purposely not doing ("hvac equip sizing/design by others" or whatever). It's not a carte blanche to suck all your free time on any task the owner may come up with. I'm sure the entity will be quite pleased that you are doing this at all. Note if you delegate structural design to another professional. Notate "Not for permit/construction" on drawings if needed. The fact that you are not getting paid shouldn't obviate your responsibility to do the best you are able or assume the liability you normally might in asserting a design for a client. Otherwise, why is this effort of any value to the client? I would hope that you are doing work of value to the client & that it is professional in its delivery. If that's the case, why would you not assume the liability as a professional? And your risk on SD level stuff is pretty low...doing permit docs is where your risk starts to move beyond the extent of fee you charge.
Actual exposure to legitimate risk can be itemized in your contract, but my guess is that you wouldn't usually take responsibility for things like existing conditions or shoring or contractor execution, etc, anyway.
just my $0.02
Just because it’s a free or massively reduced fee service, make sure you have a contract with the scope of service , termination clause , reimbursement all that jazz etc ..as you would normally have in a fee-service.
Also, never take on any consultants !! this should be provided by a client. Our company has a policy of not doing CA phase on pro-bono … not going to bore any one here with the details.