Another detail section question. I'm not sure how to best waterproof the corner where the concrete topping/q-deck meets the building. Here's the section sketch... Does anyone have a suggestion for this?
awaiting_deletion
Jun 22, 16 9:11 pm
lots of sulicone.
archanonymous
Jun 22, 16 9:52 pm
Watchu got goin there looks pretty good to me.
I assume there is going to be some kind of finish floor on the Q-Deck? If so, you should wrap a roofing membrane or bitumen sheet down the wall from beneath the turn-bar and flashing all the way to the edge of the deck where I assume there will be a gutter or some sort of drip edge to a landscaped area. Then build your finish floor system over it, whether wood decking or whatever - think of it like a horizontal rain screen you can walk on.
Jun 22, 16 10:05 pm
silicone
curtkram
Jun 22, 16 10:06 pm
pitch pan
chigurh
Jun 23, 16 9:16 am
archanonoymous has it right - concrete is not waterproof nor q deck - usually has holes in the base of the flutes. That whole assembly needs to have a membrane to the outer wall. PB80 if you really have a project as you have stated previously, you should seriously consider getting some professional help - at minimum solicit a peer review. Your questions are totally uninformed, consider the liability of a project where you don't know what you are doing...This is one of the reasons the general public thinks architects are useless fools.
Wood Guy
Jun 23, 16 10:45 am
Silicone? Seriously? Olaf is probably joking (at least I hope so). Balkins doesn't know better, from what I've seen on this forum. You need a continuous waterproof membrane at some location in the assembly, that drains to the exterior and wraps up the wall. Concrete can be made waterproof with enough Portland cement or with coatings, but those are nowhere near foolproof. The membrane can be rubber, plastic or metal, but liquid-applied is probably the easiest and most common.
archanonymous
Jun 23, 16 11:05 am
Is there nobody working with you that you can ask these questions to?
Or are you just trying to go to your boss with solutions already drawn so you seem more experienced?
mightyaa
Jun 23, 16 12:06 pm
It needs a waterproof membrane; lots of options depending on what is going over that concrete. Concrete is not waterproof, will have joints and cracks, etc.
Also nitpicking, but you need a crush plate between the beam and your wood.
proto
Jun 23, 16 2:35 pm
as mentioned above, you need a complete covering
Janosh
Jun 23, 16 2:51 pm
Is this intended to be a walkable/occupiable surface (with edge protection) or is it just a roof? Two totally different sets of details there.
gruen
Jun 23, 16 6:52 pm
It's a roof, build it like a roof. Don't cheap out here.
PB80
Jun 23, 16 8:50 pm
Thank you all for your mostly kind feedback. ;) My client (a designer/builder) is quite busy and expects me to return with a good stab at the drawings, which is why when I'm stuck, I come here to get some feedback. To be clear, I completely intend on running these details by not only my client (an experienced builder of 25 years), but also by an engineer and suppliers. I just wanted to show him something intelligently fleshed out. I hope you understand.
@Janosh Yes. this is a walkway over the garage next to the building.
Thank you archanonymous, proto, and others again. I've update accordingly with waterproofing, flashing, and pavers. I decided instead of sloping the concrete, I would use sloped rigid insulation (serves as thermal break as added benefit) with waterproofing over top, and then add pedastals with pavers as a walkway. Check it out here. I think I solved most of the problems, but I have two questions:
Should the waterproofing membrane go over top or under the sloped rigid insulation? I've seen examples of both, but typically it seems the WP goes under the insulation. And do I need something like a miradrain board over top of the WP or not really given the slope away from the building would prevent standing water issues?
The edge of the walkway ends at the foundation wall, and the ground starts a few feet below that, so I don't think a gutter is necessary, just flashing. However, the edge detail bothers me... I wouldnt want to show the flashing exposed like that. Is there an elegant way to finish the side edge? I tried a couple examples (a and b as shown in my sketch), and I prefer a as it would allow a smaller flashing/WP exposure.
Thank you guys.
Everyday Intern
Jun 23, 16 8:56 pm
What, no insulation!? Roof that no one walks on, or plaza deck that people walk on; those should be your only two options. Traffic coating is also a possibility.
Everyone helping out does realize this poster is an independent contractor who is probably being told to detail these conditions, and then comes here for advice so we'll do it for them, right? Just making sure we're all on the same page.
PB80
Jun 23, 16 9:06 pm
Thanks Everyday Intern. Yes, it's a plaza deck that people walk on.
Yes, Im an independant contractor who studied architecture years ago. I'm not exaclty sure what your point is about telling "everyone" that my intention is to get help with these details. I get the feeling that asking for help on details is some taboo issue with some members on this forum. I don't get why asking for help is wrong? Can someone explain it to me? Maybe Im not seeing your point.
Everyday Intern
Jun 23, 16 9:08 pm
Never mind, looks like you beat me to the punch. I'd edit my last post, but posting from the app, so no can do.
Janosh
Jun 23, 16 9:36 pm
You should look at the Grace and Sarnafil plaza deck waterproofing systems. There's lots of options, but unless you are going super cheap the wp membrane should be under the paving/walking surface with outlets at scuppers or concealeled area drains.
archanonymous
Jun 23, 16 11:18 pm
PB80 - i don't think EI is trying to be a dick, just pointing out that your cheap ass client should be paying more in order to hire someone who knows what they are doing. Or paying you enough that you can hire someone who knows what they are doing.
We are all pretty nice people here, but you shouldn't be making professional design decisions based on internet advice. I mean, this could be an alternate account for one of our resident trolls and you wouldn't even know.
Everyday Intern
Jun 24, 16 12:31 am
PB80, it can be a bit taboo asking for help on these forums ... but I think it depends a lot on the context. I wasn't trying to imply that in your case it is a bad thing. I can see how my earlier post came off that way. I think some frustration was coming through from my end that shouldn't be directed at you.
The frustration that was coming through is from what I am seeing as a general lack of mentorship of aspiring architects in the profession. I don't think we can blame the unknowledgeable for not being taught properly. You obviously are seeking knowledge and I think that should be commended. Those who should be teaching you are much more at fault here.
It seems like your situation is one that should never exist. Ideally (I use that word cautiously), you wouldn't be an independent contractor. Instead you would be gainfully employed by someone willing to take the time to train you correctly and you wouldn't need to resort to the forums for these types of questions. I think that by being an independent contractor you should be independent; it is obvious that you are not.
I mentioned that I used the word 'ideally' cautiously because I don't know what your situation is for sure. I don't know, so I use the word cautiously because who am I to say what your ideal situation is at this moment? My ideal may not be your ideal.
In any case, it seems there is some misunderstanding between your client and yourself as to your abilities and/or their expectations. Primarily, I don't think they should expect you to come back to them with a good intelligent stab at the drawings if you are unknowledgeable about the things you are detailing. Perhaps your client misunderstands your knowledge, or perhaps you misunderstand your clients expectations. Maybe you misrepresented your abilities to your client and don't want to disappoint them for fear of getting fired or not getting the next job. Maybe your client is taking advantage of your naivety to have you detail projects because they don't want to pay you or your benefits like they would an employee, or take the time to train you like they would an employee.
Or perhaps I'm completely out in left field and you and your client are perfectly happy with your arrangement. However, I still don't think that an internet forum should be the place you would go to first to get help with the type of questions you've been asking here. I would hope that you have a knowledgeable supervisor or mentor that would be able to guide, direct, and teach you first.
Everyday Intern
Jun 24, 16 12:35 am
Or to put it another way, building off of archanonymous' post ...
Your client is getting more value for their money because they are basically getting many knowledgeable archinectors to detail what they are paying you for. My assumption is that our billing rate is much more than yours is.
archanonymous
Jun 24, 16 10:16 am
PB80, it also has nothing to do with asking for help - i think most here are happy to do so.
This is similar to working in any office, but I don't want to help someone when all they have is an undeveloped sketch of a condition. Think about it a bit, draw 3 things you think might work, then ask for help. Would be happy to debate the pros and cons of liquid applied vs. membrane waterproofing, pan flashing, sloped insulation vs sloped deck and more, but I (and most good supervisors and mentors) will have wanted you to take a crack at it on your own.
Check GA Document and Details for detailed conditions, Arch Daily sometimes shows details too.
Really this plays into the whole "your client is a piece of shit" argument, because part of paying more to get an experienced architect is that they pay for these kinds of things, because guess what - GA Doc is $500 a year.
proto
Jun 24, 16 11:19 am
i was going to bring up a traffic coating too but you didn't really say what was going on below
if there's no need to insulate or create a nice finish for the walk or protect tempered/finished space below, don't spend a shit ton of money making that happen. plaza deck waterproofing systems are not cheap and are probably overkill if what is below is not precious.
gruen
Jun 24, 16 1:03 pm
You keep posting very technical question-the type that architects deal with every day. You are not an architect but are working on a multi family residence-which requires an architect to design and stamp it. Are you trying to get sued?
chigurh
Jun 24, 16 1:13 pm
amateur hour
PB80
Jun 26, 16 10:34 pm
Thank you all for your input. I do give it my best shot ("3 things") before asking--hence the links to my sketches. Like I said before, I've been working in architecture as an arch tech for years (Im not an architect but I work with them and I try to be useful... they have the final word of course and they have to approve/modify any final details of course... I'm not green....do I really have to keep articulating the same thing over again???), but I've been out of it for a while and need some help getting re-acquainted with the technicalities of certain details. The fact that I want to ask for help is for my benefit in my career, my portfolio, my knowledge-base--all of which will help me down the road with my clients. It's about professional development, and not about the client indirectly screwing me because I'm not his employee. We all use forums to ask questions and help each other out, that's what a forum is for!!!! If anyone wants to continue discussing this topic of whether or not we should help each other on this forum, please start a new post. Thank you.
Thank you for the references to arch daily, and specifically, thank you Janosh for the reference to Grace and Sarnafil plaza deck waterproofing systems. That is indeed very helpful. Those are the details that help me. :)
@proto: the deck below is a parking garage. The insulation would serve to slope the deck for rain run off. But if I'm going to do it that way, I'm guessing that the WP must go overtop of the slopped insul, otherwise it defeats the whole purpose.
proto
Jun 27, 16 2:20 pm
@pb80, with a garage below, presumably it has floor drains too?
you could slope the slab and use a mtl slip sheet over the joints & a traffic coating on top
but, you are closer to it than me...the plaza deck systems are bomber and look good when done properly. if the budget supports it, sounds like a solid plan
Another detail section question. I'm not sure how to best waterproof the corner where the concrete topping/q-deck meets the building. Here's the section sketch... Does anyone have a suggestion for this?
lots of sulicone.
Watchu got goin there looks pretty good to me.
I assume there is going to be some kind of finish floor on the Q-Deck? If so, you should wrap a roofing membrane or bitumen sheet down the wall from beneath the turn-bar and flashing all the way to the edge of the deck where I assume there will be a gutter or some sort of drip edge to a landscaped area. Then build your finish floor system over it, whether wood decking or whatever - think of it like a horizontal rain screen you can walk on.
silicone
pitch pan
archanonoymous has it right - concrete is not waterproof nor q deck - usually has holes in the base of the flutes. That whole assembly needs to have a membrane to the outer wall. PB80 if you really have a project as you have stated previously, you should seriously consider getting some professional help - at minimum solicit a peer review. Your questions are totally uninformed, consider the liability of a project where you don't know what you are doing...This is one of the reasons the general public thinks architects are useless fools.
Silicone? Seriously? Olaf is probably joking (at least I hope so). Balkins doesn't know better, from what I've seen on this forum. You need a continuous waterproof membrane at some location in the assembly, that drains to the exterior and wraps up the wall. Concrete can be made waterproof with enough Portland cement or with coatings, but those are nowhere near foolproof. The membrane can be rubber, plastic or metal, but liquid-applied is probably the easiest and most common.
Is there nobody working with you that you can ask these questions to?
Or are you just trying to go to your boss with solutions already drawn so you seem more experienced?
It needs a waterproof membrane; lots of options depending on what is going over that concrete. Concrete is not waterproof, will have joints and cracks, etc.
Also nitpicking, but you need a crush plate between the beam and your wood.
as mentioned above, you need a complete covering
Is this intended to be a walkable/occupiable surface (with edge protection) or is it just a roof? Two totally different sets of details there.
It's a roof, build it like a roof. Don't cheap out here.
Thank you all for your mostly kind feedback. ;) My client (a designer/builder) is quite busy and expects me to return with a good stab at the drawings, which is why when I'm stuck, I come here to get some feedback. To be clear, I completely intend on running these details by not only my client (an experienced builder of 25 years), but also by an engineer and suppliers. I just wanted to show him something intelligently fleshed out. I hope you understand.
@Janosh Yes. this is a walkway over the garage next to the building.
Thank you archanonymous, proto, and others again. I've update accordingly with waterproofing, flashing, and pavers. I decided instead of sloping the concrete, I would use sloped rigid insulation (serves as thermal break as added benefit) with waterproofing over top, and then add pedastals with pavers as a walkway. Check it out here. I think I solved most of the problems, but I have two questions:
Thank you guys.
What, no insulation!? Roof that no one walks on, or plaza deck that people walk on; those should be your only two options. Traffic coating is also a possibility.
Everyone helping out does realize this poster is an independent contractor who is probably being told to detail these conditions, and then comes here for advice so we'll do it for them, right? Just making sure we're all on the same page.
Thanks Everyday Intern. Yes, it's a plaza deck that people walk on.
Yes, Im an independant contractor who studied architecture years ago. I'm not exaclty sure what your point is about telling "everyone" that my intention is to get help with these details. I get the feeling that asking for help on details is some taboo issue with some members on this forum. I don't get why asking for help is wrong? Can someone explain it to me? Maybe Im not seeing your point.
Never mind, looks like you beat me to the punch. I'd edit my last post, but posting from the app, so no can do.
You should look at the Grace and Sarnafil plaza deck waterproofing systems. There's lots of options, but unless you are going super cheap the wp membrane should be under the paving/walking surface with outlets at scuppers or concealeled area drains.
PB80 - i don't think EI is trying to be a dick, just pointing out that your cheap ass client should be paying more in order to hire someone who knows what they are doing. Or paying you enough that you can hire someone who knows what they are doing.
We are all pretty nice people here, but you shouldn't be making professional design decisions based on internet advice. I mean, this could be an alternate account for one of our resident trolls and you wouldn't even know.
PB80, it can be a bit taboo asking for help on these forums ... but I think it depends a lot on the context. I wasn't trying to imply that in your case it is a bad thing. I can see how my earlier post came off that way. I think some frustration was coming through from my end that shouldn't be directed at you.
The frustration that was coming through is from what I am seeing as a general lack of mentorship of aspiring architects in the profession. I don't think we can blame the unknowledgeable for not being taught properly. You obviously are seeking knowledge and I think that should be commended. Those who should be teaching you are much more at fault here.
It seems like your situation is one that should never exist. Ideally (I use that word cautiously), you wouldn't be an independent contractor. Instead you would be gainfully employed by someone willing to take the time to train you correctly and you wouldn't need to resort to the forums for these types of questions. I think that by being an independent contractor you should be independent; it is obvious that you are not.
I mentioned that I used the word 'ideally' cautiously because I don't know what your situation is for sure. I don't know, so I use the word cautiously because who am I to say what your ideal situation is at this moment? My ideal may not be your ideal.
In any case, it seems there is some misunderstanding between your client and yourself as to your abilities and/or their expectations. Primarily, I don't think they should expect you to come back to them with a good intelligent stab at the drawings if you are unknowledgeable about the things you are detailing. Perhaps your client misunderstands your knowledge, or perhaps you misunderstand your clients expectations. Maybe you misrepresented your abilities to your client and don't want to disappoint them for fear of getting fired or not getting the next job. Maybe your client is taking advantage of your naivety to have you detail projects because they don't want to pay you or your benefits like they would an employee, or take the time to train you like they would an employee.
Or perhaps I'm completely out in left field and you and your client are perfectly happy with your arrangement. However, I still don't think that an internet forum should be the place you would go to first to get help with the type of questions you've been asking here. I would hope that you have a knowledgeable supervisor or mentor that would be able to guide, direct, and teach you first.
Or to put it another way, building off of archanonymous' post ...
Your client is getting more value for their money because they are basically getting many knowledgeable archinectors to detail what they are paying you for. My assumption is that our billing rate is much more than yours is.
PB80, it also has nothing to do with asking for help - i think most here are happy to do so.
This is similar to working in any office, but I don't want to help someone when all they have is an undeveloped sketch of a condition. Think about it a bit, draw 3 things you think might work, then ask for help. Would be happy to debate the pros and cons of liquid applied vs. membrane waterproofing, pan flashing, sloped insulation vs sloped deck and more, but I (and most good supervisors and mentors) will have wanted you to take a crack at it on your own.
Check GA Document and Details for detailed conditions, Arch Daily sometimes shows details too.
Really this plays into the whole "your client is a piece of shit" argument, because part of paying more to get an experienced architect is that they pay for these kinds of things, because guess what - GA Doc is $500 a year.
i was going to bring up a traffic coating too but you didn't really say what was going on below
if there's no need to insulate or create a nice finish for the walk or protect tempered/finished space below, don't spend a shit ton of money making that happen. plaza deck waterproofing systems are not cheap and are probably overkill if what is below is not precious.
You keep posting very technical question-the type that architects deal with every day. You are not an architect but are working on a multi family residence-which requires an architect to design and stamp it. Are you trying to get sued?
amateur hour
Thank you all for your input. I do give it my best shot ("3 things") before asking--hence the links to my sketches. Like I said before, I've been working in architecture as an arch tech for years (Im not an architect but I work with them and I try to be useful... they have the final word of course and they have to approve/modify any final details of course... I'm not green....do I really have to keep articulating the same thing over again???), but I've been out of it for a while and need some help getting re-acquainted with the technicalities of certain details. The fact that I want to ask for help is for my benefit in my career, my portfolio, my knowledge-base--all of which will help me down the road with my clients. It's about professional development, and not about the client indirectly screwing me because I'm not his employee. We all use forums to ask questions and help each other out, that's what a forum is for!!!! If anyone wants to continue discussing this topic of whether or not we should help each other on this forum, please start a new post. Thank you.
Thank you for the references to arch daily, and specifically, thank you Janosh for the reference to Grace and Sarnafil plaza deck waterproofing systems. That is indeed very helpful. Those are the details that help me. :)
@proto: the deck below is a parking garage. The insulation would serve to slope the deck for rain run off. But if I'm going to do it that way, I'm guessing that the WP must go overtop of the slopped insul, otherwise it defeats the whole purpose.
@pb80, with a garage below, presumably it has floor drains too?
you could slope the slab and use a mtl slip sheet over the joints & a traffic coating on top
but, you are closer to it than me...the plaza deck systems are bomber and look good when done properly. if the budget supports it, sounds like a solid plan