I've seen a lot of entry level job requiring a minimum of 1 year work experience but this is a new one.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 11, 16 7:33 pm
Why would someone with a degree need to work for school credit? That's pretty low. nevermind, I'm applying...
Miles Jaffe
Feb 11, 16 7:54 pm
In a decorator's office?
Hahahahahahahaha <cough, cough, gag, choke>
gruen
Feb 11, 16 8:10 pm
Cripes. I'm looking for a couple of summer interns, and I'm cheap, but I'll still pay.
We should all send in our resumes.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 11, 16 8:17 pm
I applied. I asked what school I would get credit in. Fingers crossed!
ivorykeyboard
Feb 11, 16 8:55 pm
What a dickhead. There should be a wall of shame for people like this.
archanonymous
Feb 11, 16 9:42 pm
ivory, want to just call his office over and over tomorrow pretending to be asking about the job?
Alternately, make up some fake resumes with me and send em on over?
I am tempted to call this guy in my capacity as a not-unknown architectural journalist and do a nice little pr-piece about what a dick move this is.
TIQM
Feb 11, 16 9:53 pm
Could be a typo.
David Cole, AIA
Feb 11, 16 10:37 pm
This guy seems like the type who seriously thinks that he's doing people a huge favor just by allowing them to be in his presence. I briefly worked for a guy like that in NYC after grad school, and I couldn't run away from that office fast enough.
Josh Mings
Feb 11, 16 10:44 pm
I'm pretty sure he decorated Oprah's place, so maybe he'll throw in membership to her book club?
This isn't 2008, and not a slavery profession. Even interns should get paid a fair amount.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 11, 16 10:45 pm
Warning! Circular reference!
arch76
Feb 11, 16 11:07 pm
huh... nice website. wonder if this could be a telecommuting gig...
go do it
Feb 11, 16 11:57 pm
I made a bed up once.
archiwutm8
Feb 12, 16 3:22 am
I'm going to make a name and shame website for job postings like this in the design field, Vivienne Westwood did the same thing here in London and posted it to my design school board, since she taught here. It circulated to design media outlets and didn't end well.
geezertect
Feb 12, 16 9:05 am
Don't just condemn the firm. Any school that gives academic credit for such things should lose accreditation.
What a con: The student pays tuition money to a school so that the school will rubber stamp the work the student does for free for the "employer". Employer gets free labor and the school gets free money for not doing anything. Can anybody really be so stupid as to fall for this? What a sorry state this industry is in.
geezertect
Feb 12, 16 9:11 am
Googled ole Nate. Seems he's related to Barry Berkus, who was a prominent housing architect in the seventies and maybe even later. Also related to some venture capitalist type. Probably learned the long con at the feet of experts.
Non Sequitur
Feb 12, 16 9:16 am
"Can anybody really be so stupid as to fall for this? What a sorry state this industry is in."
Probably the same fools who take un-paid internships.
archanonymous
Feb 12, 16 9:35 am
Going to e-mail all these places +architecture media outlets with a screenshot of the job posting and an outraged message... it would be great if everyone would join me.
Hyperion Books published Berkus's book Home Rules: Transform the Place You Live into a Place You'll Love
Hyperion Books is pretty cagey with contact info, but their publicity site isn't!
In 2005 Berkus began selling his merchandise at Linens 'n Things stores throughout North America
Headquarters: 8400 Miramar Road Suite 290 San Diego, CA 92126 Tel: (619) 819-2507
Also in October 2012, Berkus collaborated with Target stores to launch his Target Home collection
You can call 1-612-304-6073 for the main Target headquarters. If you need to contact media relations call 1-612-696-3400. Investors can call 1-800-775-3110.
In January 2013, Berkus introduced his own fabric collection at Calico Corners
I'm onboard with the naming and shaming for this post, specifically due to the Catch 22 nature of this one. Maybe it was a mistake in their listing and they meant to say current student of a program not a grad.
geezertect I disagree with you about working in exchange for school credit IF and ONLY IF the credit is given through a structured and rigorous co-op program in the school. I'm a fan of co-op programs, though they absolutely have to be structured to be a serious learning opportunity for the student, not just fetching coffee and organizing the Formica samples board all day. The AIA and NCARB have done some study into how to certify some firms as "learning firms" so their internships will be truly meaningful. I'm not sure what the status of that effort is now.
Everyday Intern
Feb 12, 16 10:15 am
If employers aren't willing to overlook egregious 'typos' in our resumes and portfolios (or better yet our work for them) we shouldn't be willing to chalk this up to some sort of error when they posted the position.
Some schools offer "work fellowships" which I am in favor of. In a work fellowship the school pays at least half, if not all, of your salary to work in a firm (the firm makes up the remaining amount). Since the firm does not have to pay for your labor they are more likely to let you participate in and/or observe the design process rather than just running coffee and making copies. You are also more likely to get a spot in the firm of your choosing.
Working for school credit however is a blatant scam that takes advantage of students both from the position of the employer and the educator. A successful firm like this one can and should pay their employees living wages even if they are still in school. While I was in school at the Boston Architectural College I worked full time and got paid a full salary by my employer. People like this are only doing it because they know they can get away with it.
geezertect
Feb 12, 16 10:31 am
Donna: Maybe I'm just getting way too old and cynical, but I can't help but suspect that the kind of oversight you describe is not taking place in most cases. The employers aren't educators; they just want a little free grunt labor. And the schools are perfectly happy to get some tuition coin for not doing anything.
geezertect
Feb 12, 16 10:44 am
People like this are only doing it because they know they can get away with it.
If you throw a steak on the kitchen floor, don't get mad at the dog if he eats it.
EI: I love the "typo" alibi. Oops, did I say Harvard? I really meant Ed's School of Tattoo.
go do it
Feb 12, 16 10:59 am
Per Wikipedia . Berkus graduated from Lake Forest College near Chicago in 1994 with degrees in French and Sociology
He doesn't have a degree in his field so I wonder why he requires it of others?
Miles Jaffe
Feb 12, 16 11:20 am
French and sociology is perfect training for inferior decorators.
archiwutm8
Feb 12, 16 11:29 am
I also have a degree in bullshitting.
shellarchitect
Feb 12, 16 11:35 am
i suspect the application may require a head shot among other "qualifications"
Schoon
Feb 12, 16 11:48 am
The co-op program at my college is hit or miss, especially among arts / entertainment industry majors. One of my friends had a co-op with an "up-and-coming concert venue," at which she sat in a warehouse while construction crews built the venue, in between gas leaks and burglaries.
The engineering / finance co-ops are usually great, though. Paid well above minimum wage and most people I've talked to say they've actually learned something useful. That is, when your employer has work to give you.
A few of my architecture friends were able to find paid co-ops, but they are very scarce.
shellarchitect
Feb 12, 16 12:01 pm
a couple co-ops are or were a requirement at Detroit mercy, mine were pretty good and I was hired full time after graduation.
One of the requirements is that you had to be paid, not sure how much. I did hear stories of people getting stiffed though. When the economy was real bad they relaxed the req. somehow too.
awaiting_deletion
Feb 12, 16 1:06 pm
inferior decorator!!!!! yes yes yes.........archiwut is that website up yet?
Everyday Intern
Feb 12, 16 1:19 pm
About the time I graduated, my school was looking at making an internship as part of the required curriculum. The faculty debate was over whether or not the internships should be paid, or for credit only. The 'for credit only' side was adamant that if the school required employers to pay the interns/students, the requirement would fail because they would never be able to find enough firms willing to participate. They would never be able to find enough firms willing to pay interns for work!
Yet, they expected that only a year or two later, once the student was a graduate, that job prospects would be different and we would all be able to find work. Furthermore, finding work would be especially easy considering that we would have real-world, on-the-job experience due to the change in the school's curriculum.
The school never implemented the proposed change. Actually agreeing on the worth of the interns proved too divisive or cumbersome for the faculty.
go do it
Feb 12, 16 1:47 pm
I wonder if Nate would approve of my interior design taste?
SneakyPete
Feb 12, 16 8:32 pm
Folks, i don't think Nate has time to give a flying shit about your issues with his hiring practices. He's too busy arranging roses.
Feb 13, 16 12:43 am
He'll give a shit when he gets a notice of either the State Attorney General or U.S. Department of Justice suing his ass.
Feb 13, 16 12:44 am
gruen,
"Cripes. I'm looking for a couple of summer interns, and I'm cheap, but I'll still pay.
We should all send in our resumes."
I would work for you but not this asshole.
Feb 13, 16 12:49 am
archiwutm8,
"I'm going to make a name and shame website for job postings like this in the design field, Vivienne Westwood did the same thing here in London and posted it to my design school board, since she taught here. It circulated to design media outlets and didn't end well."
Agree. This shouldn't matter whether it is a licensed or unlicensed design business. Labor laws, internships, etc. matters in the design field and people should be paid fairly regardless of whether the work requires some license to practice or NOT.
go do it
Feb 13, 16 1:09 am
if someone asks you to work for free 'for the exposure',
tell them people die of exposure
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 13, 16 2:23 am
I am hiring for interns. I pay in feel-goods.
awaiting_deletion
Feb 13, 16 8:20 am
archiwut the website should be in multiple languages
i got a feel-good reduction in my second job, so they fired me!
awaiting_deletion
Feb 13, 16 8:26 am
every young designer should always approach "famous" people as follows -
famous person or pretending to be "I did a couch at Google, curtains at Apple, and Justin Bieber responded to a tweet I made in response to him on curtains at Apple! You look like smart kid, want to intern with me?"
fame is all relevant these days anyway. wealth as well. nothing more annoying than rich clients who haggle and act like dollar bills are their babies. Do I have to file with the building department, it cost a few thousand to pay fees, I could spend that on hiring an inferior decorator.
young possible intern "how well does knowing famous people pay? If above what a manager makes at McDonald's I would be interested in Interning for you!"
"Pay! Pay! i know famous people and am famous, I only got the work because I did it for free because they are famous, I can't pay you if I am not paid!" - famous person or pretending to be
Miles Jaffe
Feb 13, 16 9:15 am
Back in the day I was asked by a spec developer here to do a house design. After thinking about it, and his notoriously cheap reputation, I went back with a proposal for about 50% of the normal fee paid up front plus a small percentage of the gross sale.
The developer flipped and said "I've done a dozen spec houses and never made a penny on any of them!"
I told him that he was either an idiot or a liar and that in neither case would I have anything to do with him.
gruen
Feb 13, 16 9:35 am
I'm currently working to hire an intern. I'm finding out if he can get credit for the time. This is in addition to the pay-and has nothing to do with the amount of pay. I figure he should get as much as possible-pay and credit. The pay will be low. He will be doing coffee and office organizing-and other tasks that I would otherwise do myself. He will also be getting his feet wet on real technical and design tasks-to the best of his ability . We will see how useful it is for me and him.
geezertect
Feb 13, 16 1:08 pm
The developer flipped and said "I've done a dozen spec houses and never made a penny on any of them!"
What he meant to say was he never admitted making a penny to the IRS. Or maybe he meant to say, "I never paid a penny on any of them for architects' fees."
makingspace
Feb 13, 16 1:49 pm
Olaf,
I love getting that line when interviewing. I just think to myself, wow, you're so amazing and accomplished but you get mediocre projects and can't afford to pay me.
Also, the curtains for Google or whatever one time big project they did is always 15 years or older.
Not to mention, when you live in a major city there are thousands of people who have worked for starchitects.
File it under "sleeze bags of architecture"
Donna Sink
Feb 13, 16 1:56 pm
Nate Berkus responded to me on twitter by saying "That was a mistake and thank you for calling it to our attention." So, let's give them benefit of doubt and assume that they copy-pasted info from another job posting into this one. The posting here on Archinect was gone as of yesterday, is it back again, fixed?
I think we can call attention to this problem without being jerks. When the person making the mistake responds as a jerk themselves, *that* is when you can feel free to unleash. IMO.
Feb 13, 16 2:31 pm
Donna,
He has 5 job postings on his own website. I am not sure how this is an oops. Same problem 5 times over. I don't fall for the b.s. but okay. Oh well.
I think it's all saving face politician type b.s.
It was a mistake but one he probably had been routinely doing for awhile until someone caught it and made light (brought attention) to it.
archanonymous
Feb 13, 16 3:45 pm
Guys, I have a serious question about this. I am getting to the point that I need student help on some projects, and have been torn about how to pay when I'm not necessarily getting paid well.
I asked some students if they would be interested in working with me (not for me) on a project and offered them an equal share of credit, intellectual property/ stake in the project, plus offered them a lump-sum amount. What would it work out to hourly? Probably like $5/ hr.
This is less than I would like to pay them, but it is a purely academic project with no client or fee. I tried to be totally up-front with them and make it feel like a partnership, not an internship. Comments on if this is ethical?
Feb 13, 16 4:06 pm
archanonymous,
Here's my take, I am not against say an academic internship that is paid or unpaid for a student getting academic credit. It doesn't necessarily mean they have to be architecture school students but also students in other programs from community college, high school, vocational/technical school, etc.
In order to do such, it should be entirely a 1099-MISC 'independent contractor' relationship if you want to not be bound by minimum wage rules.
Alternatively, there is an option for doing say a project like a house plan for house plans sales, then you may form a joint venture, general partnership, llc, llp, or whatever with them. Then from the sales of the plans, they get part of the proceeds.
However, the latter may naturally expose additional liability but wouldn't all projects do. The more you do, the more liability exposure. So it is down to how you handle it. This can also be done in an independent contractor relationship forming into a quasi-joint venture collaborative. They (the student... if adults of course) would be business(-es) in their own names in that sense. When you do it that way, you can bypass being bound by minimum wage / conventional employment regulations.
As for ethical, that is a subject of opinion. When they are students doing this for which academic credit is gained and/or proceeds from sales of the plans like in house plans publications, then it is probably not a bad deal as they are gaining something for it both educationally, exposure into the professional field. This isn't something you would be commanding them to invest full-time work schedule or extensively long duration like year(s) long duration.
In that scenario, I don't think it is an issue.
This is just some thoughts and my opinion. Others may have their own take.
awaiting_deletion
Feb 13, 16 5:29 pm
archanoymous I have been essentially apprenticing for 10 years under an architect who learned from a guy who practiced as early as the 40's, the LA code book (first copy) is in the office......he pays so well I haven't fully broken out on my own..l and i have done some serious side projects, like a showroom for a knighted english architect as he AOR local guy.......admittly i learned a lot at a rate my fellow collegues would be jealous of......so i learned....i pay people the right way for this reason, students etc... do their best when motivated. i delay my mortgage payment to pay workers right. its important to set a standard in belief that your skills can earn you lots of money and it starts as an employer.
awaiting_deletion
Feb 13, 16 5:33 pm
makingspace - i hate young upstarts that name drop, but they have potential so i take the jobs on. educating someone that they are not geniuses and professionals know by experience is tough, so some fame hunters eventually do learn. fame is overated.
"Nate Berkus Associates is looking for a Design Intern to start ASAP in our Chicago office, 2-3 days per week, for school credit only."
"Qualifications: Bachelor’s or Master's degree in Interior Design, Architecture or related field."
Seen here: http://archinect.com/jobs/entry/147656638/design-intern
I've seen a lot of entry level job requiring a minimum of 1 year work experience but this is a new one.
Why would someone with a degree need to work for school credit? That's pretty low. nevermind, I'm applying...
In a decorator's office?
Hahahahahahahaha <cough, cough, gag, choke>
Cripes. I'm looking for a couple of summer interns, and I'm cheap, but I'll still pay.
We should all send in our resumes.
I applied. I asked what school I would get credit in. Fingers crossed!
What a dickhead. There should be a wall of shame for people like this.
ivory, want to just call his office over and over tomorrow pretending to be asking about the job?
Alternately, make up some fake resumes with me and send em on over?
I am tempted to call this guy in my capacity as a not-unknown architectural journalist and do a nice little pr-piece about what a dick move this is.
Could be a typo.
This guy seems like the type who seriously thinks that he's doing people a huge favor just by allowing them to be in his presence. I briefly worked for a guy like that in NYC after grad school, and I couldn't run away from that office fast enough.
I'm pretty sure he decorated Oprah's place, so maybe he'll throw in membership to her book club?
This isn't 2008, and not a slavery profession. Even interns should get paid a fair amount.
Warning! Circular reference!
huh... nice website. wonder if this could be a telecommuting gig...
I made a bed up once.
I'm going to make a name and shame website for job postings like this in the design field, Vivienne Westwood did the same thing here in London and posted it to my design school board, since she taught here. It circulated to design media outlets and didn't end well.
Don't just condemn the firm. Any school that gives academic credit for such things should lose accreditation.
What a con: The student pays tuition money to a school so that the school will rubber stamp the work the student does for free for the "employer". Employer gets free labor and the school gets free money for not doing anything. Can anybody really be so stupid as to fall for this? What a sorry state this industry is in.
Googled ole Nate. Seems he's related to Barry Berkus, who was a prominent housing architect in the seventies and maybe even later. Also related to some venture capitalist type. Probably learned the long con at the feet of experts.
"Can anybody really be so stupid as to fall for this? What a sorry state this industry is in."
Probably the same fools who take un-paid internships.
Going to e-mail all these places +architecture media outlets with a screenshot of the job posting and an outraged message... it would be great if everyone would join me.
Hyperion Books published Berkus's book Home Rules: Transform the Place You Live into a Place You'll Love
Hyperion Books is pretty cagey with contact info, but their publicity site isn't!
[email protected]
270-782-7834
In 2005 Berkus began selling his merchandise at Linens 'n Things stores throughout North America
Headquarters:
8400 Miramar Road
Suite 290
San Diego, CA 92126
Tel: (619) 819-2507
Also in October 2012, Berkus collaborated with Target stores to launch his Target Home collection
You can call 1-612-304-6073 for the main Target headquarters. If you need to contact media relations call 1-612-696-3400. Investors can call 1-800-775-3110.
In January 2013, Berkus introduced his own fabric collection at Calico Corners
[email protected]
1-800-213-6366
Don't forget him either!
[email protected]
[email protected]
I'm onboard with the naming and shaming for this post, specifically due to the Catch 22 nature of this one. Maybe it was a mistake in their listing and they meant to say current student of a program not a grad.
geezertect I disagree with you about working in exchange for school credit IF and ONLY IF the credit is given through a structured and rigorous co-op program in the school. I'm a fan of co-op programs, though they absolutely have to be structured to be a serious learning opportunity for the student, not just fetching coffee and organizing the Formica samples board all day. The AIA and NCARB have done some study into how to certify some firms as "learning firms" so their internships will be truly meaningful. I'm not sure what the status of that effort is now.
If employers aren't willing to overlook egregious 'typos' in our resumes and portfolios (or better yet our work for them) we shouldn't be willing to chalk this up to some sort of error when they posted the position.
Nothing new to require experience or credentials that don't fit the position description though ... http://archinect.com/arch-ellipsis/entry-level-with-experience
I tweeted at Nate Berkus that this is not cool.
Some schools offer "work fellowships" which I am in favor of. In a work fellowship the school pays at least half, if not all, of your salary to work in a firm (the firm makes up the remaining amount). Since the firm does not have to pay for your labor they are more likely to let you participate in and/or observe the design process rather than just running coffee and making copies. You are also more likely to get a spot in the firm of your choosing.
Working for school credit however is a blatant scam that takes advantage of students both from the position of the employer and the educator. A successful firm like this one can and should pay their employees living wages even if they are still in school. While I was in school at the Boston Architectural College I worked full time and got paid a full salary by my employer. People like this are only doing it because they know they can get away with it.
Donna: Maybe I'm just getting way too old and cynical, but I can't help but suspect that the kind of oversight you describe is not taking place in most cases. The employers aren't educators; they just want a little free grunt labor. And the schools are perfectly happy to get some tuition coin for not doing anything.
People like this are only doing it because they know they can get away with it.
If you throw a steak on the kitchen floor, don't get mad at the dog if he eats it.
EI: I love the "typo" alibi. Oops, did I say Harvard? I really meant Ed's School of Tattoo.
Per Wikipedia . Berkus graduated from Lake Forest College near Chicago in 1994 with degrees in French and Sociology
He doesn't have a degree in his field so I wonder why he requires it of others?
French and sociology is perfect training for inferior decorators.
I also have a degree in bullshitting.
i suspect the application may require a head shot among other "qualifications"
The co-op program at my college is hit or miss, especially among arts / entertainment industry majors. One of my friends had a co-op with an "up-and-coming concert venue," at which she sat in a warehouse while construction crews built the venue, in between gas leaks and burglaries.
The engineering / finance co-ops are usually great, though. Paid well above minimum wage and most people I've talked to say they've actually learned something useful. That is, when your employer has work to give you.
A few of my architecture friends were able to find paid co-ops, but they are very scarce.
a couple co-ops are or were a requirement at Detroit mercy, mine were pretty good and I was hired full time after graduation.
One of the requirements is that you had to be paid, not sure how much. I did hear stories of people getting stiffed though. When the economy was real bad they relaxed the req. somehow too.
inferior decorator!!!!! yes yes yes.........archiwut is that website up yet?
About the time I graduated, my school was looking at making an internship as part of the required curriculum. The faculty debate was over whether or not the internships should be paid, or for credit only. The 'for credit only' side was adamant that if the school required employers to pay the interns/students, the requirement would fail because they would never be able to find enough firms willing to participate. They would never be able to find enough firms willing to pay interns for work!
Yet, they expected that only a year or two later, once the student was a graduate, that job prospects would be different and we would all be able to find work. Furthermore, finding work would be especially easy considering that we would have real-world, on-the-job experience due to the change in the school's curriculum.
The school never implemented the proposed change. Actually agreeing on the worth of the interns proved too divisive or cumbersome for the faculty.
I wonder if Nate would approve of my interior design taste?
Folks, i don't think Nate has time to give a flying shit about your issues with his hiring practices. He's too busy arranging roses.
He'll give a shit when he gets a notice of either the State Attorney General or U.S. Department of Justice suing his ass.
gruen,
"Cripes. I'm looking for a couple of summer interns, and I'm cheap, but I'll still pay.
We should all send in our resumes."
I would work for you but not this asshole.
archiwutm8,
"I'm going to make a name and shame website for job postings like this in the design field, Vivienne Westwood did the same thing here in London and posted it to my design school board, since she taught here. It circulated to design media outlets and didn't end well."
Agree. This shouldn't matter whether it is a licensed or unlicensed design business. Labor laws, internships, etc. matters in the design field and people should be paid fairly regardless of whether the work requires some license to practice or NOT.
if someone asks you to work for free 'for the exposure',
tell them people die of exposure
I am hiring for interns. I pay in feel-goods.
archiwut the website should be in multiple languages
i got a feel-good reduction in my second job, so they fired me!
every young designer should always approach "famous" people as follows -
famous person or pretending to be "I did a couch at Google, curtains at Apple, and Justin Bieber responded to a tweet I made in response to him on curtains at Apple! You look like smart kid, want to intern with me?"
fame is all relevant these days anyway. wealth as well. nothing more annoying than rich clients who haggle and act like dollar bills are their babies. Do I have to file with the building department, it cost a few thousand to pay fees, I could spend that on hiring an inferior decorator.
young possible intern "how well does knowing famous people pay? If above what a manager makes at McDonald's I would be interested in Interning for you!"
"Pay! Pay! i know famous people and am famous, I only got the work because I did it for free because they are famous, I can't pay you if I am not paid!" - famous person or pretending to be
Back in the day I was asked by a spec developer here to do a house design. After thinking about it, and his notoriously cheap reputation, I went back with a proposal for about 50% of the normal fee paid up front plus a small percentage of the gross sale.
The developer flipped and said "I've done a dozen spec houses and never made a penny on any of them!"
I told him that he was either an idiot or a liar and that in neither case would I have anything to do with him.
I'm currently working to hire an intern. I'm finding out if he can get credit for the time. This is in addition to the pay-and has nothing to do with the amount of pay. I figure he should get as much as possible-pay and credit. The pay will be low. He will be doing coffee and office organizing-and other tasks that I would otherwise do myself. He will also be getting his feet wet on real technical and design tasks-to the best of his ability . We will see how useful it is for me and him.
The developer flipped and said "I've done a dozen spec houses and never made a penny on any of them!"
What he meant to say was he never admitted making a penny to the IRS. Or maybe he meant to say, "I never paid a penny on any of them for architects' fees."
Olaf,
I love getting that line when interviewing. I just think to myself, wow, you're so amazing and accomplished but you get mediocre projects and can't afford to pay me.
Also, the curtains for Google or whatever one time big project they did is always 15 years or older.
Not to mention, when you live in a major city there are thousands of people who have worked for starchitects.
File it under "sleeze bags of architecture"
Nate Berkus responded to me on twitter by saying "That was a mistake and thank you for calling it to our attention." So, let's give them benefit of doubt and assume that they copy-pasted info from another job posting into this one. The posting here on Archinect was gone as of yesterday, is it back again, fixed?
I think we can call attention to this problem without being jerks. When the person making the mistake responds as a jerk themselves, *that* is when you can feel free to unleash. IMO.
Donna,
He has 5 job postings on his own website. I am not sure how this is an oops. Same problem 5 times over. I don't fall for the b.s. but okay. Oh well.
I think it's all saving face politician type b.s.
It was a mistake but one he probably had been routinely doing for awhile until someone caught it and made light (brought attention) to it.
Guys, I have a serious question about this. I am getting to the point that I need student help on some projects, and have been torn about how to pay when I'm not necessarily getting paid well.
I asked some students if they would be interested in working with me (not for me) on a project and offered them an equal share of credit, intellectual property/ stake in the project, plus offered them a lump-sum amount. What would it work out to hourly? Probably like $5/ hr.
This is less than I would like to pay them, but it is a purely academic project with no client or fee. I tried to be totally up-front with them and make it feel like a partnership, not an internship. Comments on if this is ethical?
archanonymous,
Here's my take, I am not against say an academic internship that is paid or unpaid for a student getting academic credit. It doesn't necessarily mean they have to be architecture school students but also students in other programs from community college, high school, vocational/technical school, etc.
In order to do such, it should be entirely a 1099-MISC 'independent contractor' relationship if you want to not be bound by minimum wage rules.
Alternatively, there is an option for doing say a project like a house plan for house plans sales, then you may form a joint venture, general partnership, llc, llp, or whatever with them. Then from the sales of the plans, they get part of the proceeds.
However, the latter may naturally expose additional liability but wouldn't all projects do. The more you do, the more liability exposure. So it is down to how you handle it. This can also be done in an independent contractor relationship forming into a quasi-joint venture collaborative. They (the student... if adults of course) would be business(-es) in their own names in that sense. When you do it that way, you can bypass being bound by minimum wage / conventional employment regulations.
As for ethical, that is a subject of opinion. When they are students doing this for which academic credit is gained and/or proceeds from sales of the plans like in house plans publications, then it is probably not a bad deal as they are gaining something for it both educationally, exposure into the professional field. This isn't something you would be commanding them to invest full-time work schedule or extensively long duration like year(s) long duration.
In that scenario, I don't think it is an issue.
This is just some thoughts and my opinion. Others may have their own take.
archanoymous I have been essentially apprenticing for 10 years under an architect who learned from a guy who practiced as early as the 40's, the LA code book (first copy) is in the office......he pays so well I haven't fully broken out on my own..l and i have done some serious side projects, like a showroom for a knighted english architect as he AOR local guy.......admittly i learned a lot at a rate my fellow collegues would be jealous of......so i learned....i pay people the right way for this reason, students etc... do their best when motivated. i delay my mortgage payment to pay workers right. its important to set a standard in belief that your skills can earn you lots of money and it starts as an employer.
makingspace - i hate young upstarts that name drop, but they have potential so i take the jobs on. educating someone that they are not geniuses and professionals know by experience is tough, so some fame hunters eventually do learn. fame is overated.