As an architect i am working on a project of a bridge which will really be materialize.I would like you to give me some good ideas.
To start my bridge must be built as an ecological road,its materials must be ecological materials.
shellarchitect
Jul 14, 15 2:27 pm
what will you give in return?
Non Sequitur
Jul 14, 15 2:27 pm
build it out of solar panels.
Both functional and green!
x-jla
Jul 14, 15 2:38 pm
+++Non Sequitur
chigurh
Jul 14, 15 2:53 pm
i has cheeseburger.
x-jla
Jul 14, 15 3:03 pm
chigurh, I just spat coffee on my fuckin desk...thanks buddy!
Zbig
Jul 14, 15 3:25 pm
Make it out of playing cards and put card tables on the bridge.
People will be able to play bridge on the bridge card bridge. They will call it the bridge bridge, and you will become famous.
Miles Jaffe
Jul 14, 15 3:52 pm
Make it out of soylent green.
Volunteer
Jul 14, 15 4:05 pm
Build the hummer out of stone. There is a stone bridge in Rome that has been in use for over 2,000 years. That "ecological" enough?
Jul 14, 15 4:54 pm
Okay.... ecological materials... Ok. Where is this bridge? Explain the project a bit. What materials precisely are no no and okay. Ecological materials can have various meaning between different people. Is wood ecological or isn't ecological? I like to know that.
Codes and engineering standards will require some use of reinforced concrete due to seismic zone requirements unless you are anchoring into a pretty consolidated bolder of very hard rock like granite or basalt that is as big as a car or something when the footing only needs to be small.
What kind of bridge? Pedestrian or Vehicular?
I could do some of this if it were appurtenant to an exempt building. I don't know if you are permitted to practice architecture and designing bridges unless it is appurtenant to a building such as a bridge that is structurally connected to the building.
JeromeS
Jul 14, 15 5:12 pm
Is a bridge an "exempt" structure in Oregon?
Jul 14, 15 5:23 pm
In a very limited fashion... it can be... If it were say on one end attached and part of a house for example. Another example is a house that is a bridge at the same time. It can be if you are creative enough.
As a stand alone... maybe not. We don't see alot of cases like that for a case analysis. In other places, the wording of exemptions varies and I know a few places where it could potentially be exempt.
Normally, this would be something you would have an engineer. There is a point where it would just simply prudent to have an engineer.
It is one thing if it is a pedestrian walk bridge over a very very small stream. It is another thing when you are spanning considerable distance with considerable load.
There are exemptions in the architect and engineers laws so if you are crafty with a smidged of creativity... you can pull it into the exemption but you better know what you are doing and use good sense of judgement on whether you should get an engineer or not.
It is something that if you don't know what you are doing (whether a building designer or architect), the B.O. may require an engineer to prepare some of the drawings and specifications.
Jul 14, 15 5:57 pm
ORS 671.030
Subsection (2)(b)
(B) Is a structure used in connection with or auxiliary toa single family residential dwelling or farm building, including but not limited to a three-car garage, barn or shed or a shelter used for the housing of domestic animals or livestock.
Hint: a bridge that is part of a long drive way crossing over a stream.
but to a more limited fashion if it can be deemed an appurtenance.
(c) A person from making drawings or specifications for, or observing the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance to a building, if the building has a ground area of 4,000 square feet or less and is not more than 20 feet in height from the top surface of lowest flooring to the highest interior overhead finish of the structure.
(10)A person making plans or specifications for, or supervising the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance thereto, if the building is to be used for a single family residential dwelling or farm building or is a structure used in connection with or auxiliary to a single family residential dwelling or farm building, including but not limited to a three-car garage, barn or shed or a shelter used for the housing of domestic animals or livestock. The exemption in this subsection does not apply to a registered professional engineer.
So in theory, if it falls into that... then potentially yes. Even then, you may want an engineer depending on the nature and complexity of such a 'bridge'.
If the building is commercial then a bridge used as a structure in connection with or auxilliary to a commercial building should be designed by an engineer. The language isn't as clear for commercial buildings but the word appurtenance is used and so if it indeed is considered as such then yes.
Now... I don't want the discussion to be derailed on this tangent but just to put some degree of closure to the tangent which arose out of a minor point in my sentence. When the OP further clarifies his point or question(s), then lets focus on that. Alright ?
x-jla
Jul 14, 15 6:47 pm
Are cheeseburgers exempt in Oregon?
x-jla
Jul 14, 15 6:49 pm
Just added 'getting stoned with Richard Balkins' to my bucket list...
chigurh
Jul 14, 15 6:57 pm
Richard Balkins went up Niagara Falls in a barrel.
Jul 14, 15 7:12 pm
LOL...
Is a cheeseburger license required?
Doing something like this:
This is probably not even an issue for most places.
or even this:
(aside from issues of guard rail openings and things like that.)
but if you try to do something more sophisticated and vehicular capacity load by nature, you probably will need an engineer even if technically exempt.
This would likely require an engineer not only because of span (especially multispan bridges) but also the fact it is carrying significant load and also height of bridge to the bottom of the valley or creek/stream/river bottom.
Jul 14, 15 7:42 pm
What happens when you f--- up and your bridge fails.
My project is in a rural area surrounding by trees and water,in brief nature.Not any building is built close to it.
Recyclable materials are an ecological way of solving the problem but,with the context it is not suitable.In facts people need a path to get on the other side of the river.People who live by agriculture could sell their goods on the other side easily and other cities.Cars can't cross the road however the two sides are economically very active.
People in that part of the country no more need houses, they have theirs.
The bridge must take into consideration the different ways to move regarding its economical impact.I might be a bridge for walkers, cars, shoots shoots.A tourism space to cross the river onto a canoe,as it is done.
By night for sure solar lighting due to its cost.The so needed bridge.It won't fall i work with engineers.
el jeffe
Jul 16, 15 1:59 pm
funny how difficult it can be to discern a bot from a student.
Non Sequitur
Jul 16, 15 2:48 pm
Green Man, have you considered re-routing the river? Seems like the greenest no-brainier solution: No river to cross therefore no environmentally damaging construction is necessary.
3tk
Jul 16, 15 5:45 pm
Engineers design to failure - it's their job to know how/when/where a structure will fail and to ensure it's not under use (everything has a life span, and there are catastrophic events).
Jul 17, 15 3:24 am
I thought the job is design to be certain it doesn't fail and there is a common practice of engineering to maximize efficiency under so called 'value engineering' which means to design with minimum redundancy level. It is always possible to design something as cheap as possible but it leaves you in a position where you have no room for overload factoring which is something we need to think ahead.
When I perform the calculations for sizing footings, structural members and so forth, I plan for sufficient I look for more than the minimum conditions. I know will have to rework foundation plan for a deck design which is fine with me but nonetheless is still going to have a degree of factor of safety so footings would not be too weak and also provide a degree of long term reliability. Not exactly bridge related but still that is how I am about structural matters.
Brud-G
Jul 17, 15 9:43 am
"When I perform the calculations for sizing footings, structural members and so forth"
WikB (Wikipedia Balkens),
What project were these calcs for?
kjdt
Jul 17, 15 9:54 am
Richard your building designer business has never had any reportable income. Aren't there forums somewhere for garbage collectors and custodial staff, where you could pontificate on your real-life occupations instead of struggling to keep up your pretend ones?
Schoon
Jul 17, 15 10:20 am
Richard, I don't know a single engineer that doesn't use factors of safety in his or her calculations. Your post seems to imply that there is a problem in the engineering profession because of value engineering, but all value engineering exists within factors of safety.
Also, you can't be certain that a structure won't fail. Everything fails eventually, given enough time and use. Like 3tk said, the job is to design with a lifespan in mind that reflects the cost or importance of a structure.
Jul 17, 15 6:48 pm
I can assure it won't fail under practical loads but over time, nails will need replacing as well as deck screws need replacing but I can assure you that you won't break the 4x8 beams spaced 5 feet apart and you have 2x8 joists @ 12" o.c. in between it and with 3 footings under the 4 x 8 beams over a 6' span. So with a 10" diameter footing inset by 1-ft. and 2-ft. on-center between the 3 footings. The joists and beams, all connected together with heavy duty Strong Tie connectors. You have to weigh an awful lot to beak through the beam.
I can guarantee that even with jam packed full of 300-500# human beings. However, I can assure it won't buckle or break anytime soon under average load condition.
Sure, if you give enough time for wood rot to eventually happen with absolutely no maintenance, anything will eventually fail. Well, even with maintenance, materials do eventually fail.
The question is to what extent is the factor of safety. Absolute minimum? Which may or may not be that much and then that is good for brand new but code required minimum should be factor of safety should still be met by end of service life that is being considered with a certain level of maintenance. This means if that service life is 20 years, it should still meet the building code requirements including the maximum peak factor of safety.
Jul 17, 15 7:24 pm
kjdt,
The last time I checked, tax returns are private information that is not available to public records request. Remember, I'm a sole-proprietorship so my income is recorded under personal income which you can not request unless duly authorized by me and they would have to context me to verify you are authorized. It doesn't matter if it is IRS or Oregon Department of Revenue.
NOTE: I am neither confirming or denying your claim.
kjdt
Jul 17, 15 8:08 pm
There are other sources for employment and earnings history.
You don't need to confirm or deny anything, what I stated are facts. Think: how else would I know your garbage man history?
Gloominati
Jul 17, 15 8:44 pm
Are you allowed to call yourself a Sanitation Engineer in Oregon? Or is that going to get you fined by the board of engineers?
Schoon
Jul 17, 15 9:01 pm
I'm curious, Richard, you don't have a PE license, but you do your own structural calculations? Who stamps the structural drawings for your projects?
JeromeS
Jul 17, 15 9:26 pm
Richard works on exempt buildings. No calculations required. The code prescriptively determines the engineering via joist span tables, minimum footing dimensions, nailing patterns, etc. any calculations Richard does primarily makes him feel important and costs his "clients" extra money
x-jla
Jul 17, 15 10:29 pm
who needs a bridge...just invent floating shoes
Jul 17, 15 11:02 pm
I wasn't a garbage man. I did janitorial/custodial as a part time job because architecture and building design in Astoria and vicinity is more a seasonal job kind of thing. Design is usually during the late fall to mid-spring time frame. That's when the clients tend to contract for services.
As for my earning history, the only accurate source is what is what I report to IRS and Oregon Department of Revenues and for any Washington project... Department of Revenue.
Therefore what are you basing as my earned income. The only source is through those sources and if you have that, then someone broke the law and if you initiated it or become a party of it then you are all part of an unlawful act.
Jul 17, 15 11:07 pm
JeromeS:
Actually, even in Oregon, I can perform structural calculations and apply the knowledge of mathematical, physical and engineering sciences as they are incidental to building design such as beam sizing, footing sizing and so forth. I just can not offer the services as "Engineering services". Similar to an Architect overlap of practice. I just can not offer services under the professional engineer title or bill the services as "engineering services".
I can perform structural calculations within the context of building design of exempt buildings and structures as they pertain the the making of plans and specifications. Structural design and calculation is incidental to making plans and specifications.
Jul 17, 15 11:12 pm
Mr. Balkins:
The Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying (OSBEELS) received your inquiry and offer the following.
Single family residences (SFR) are exempt from the engineering laws according to Oregon Revised Statute (ORS) 672.060(10). This would also include structural calculations for a SFR. Specifically, "(10) A person making plans or specifications for, or supervising the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance thereto, if the building is to be used for a single family residential dwelling or farm building or is a structure used in connection with or auxiliary to a single family residential dwelling or farm building, including but not limited to a three-car garage, barn or shed or a shelter used for the housing of domestic animals or livestock. ORS 672.002 to 672.325 do not prevent a person from making plans or specifications for, or supervising the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance thereto, if the building has a ground area of 4,000 square feet or less and is not more than 20 feet in height from the top surface of lowest flooring to the highest interior overhead finish of the structure."
Regarding the use of the engineer title, ORS 672.002(2) states, "(2) "Engineer," "licensed engineer," "professional engineer," "registered engineer" or "registered professional engineer" means a person who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 to 672.325." If you are aware of a person using the title of engineer without registration, please file a complaint. The OSBEELS complaint form and instructions can be found by the Regulation link at http://www.oregon.gov/OSBEELS/.
If you should have any further question, please contact the Board office.
-----Original Message----- From: rick balkins [mailto:rickbalkins@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:09 PM To: WilkensonJ@osbeels.org Cc: JR Wilkinson Subject: Is license registration required to perform structural calculations on exempt buildings such as Single Family Residences
Is a license / registration required to perform structural calculations on exempt buildings such as Single Family Residences
For example:
Truss design calculations in accordance wit ANSI/TPI 1-2007 in direct connection with S.F.R.s Structural Beam calculations, foundation system calculations and other calculations in accordance to "engineering standards" such as ASCE standards like ASCE 7, and other standards like ACI 318, ect.
Under my understanding, doing such practice on exempt buildings and structures would be exempt from the registration/license requirements.
I do recognize advertising services using the words engineering (in most cases except that use of the words under fair use laws that does not create the effect of referring to oneself as an engineer) OR use of the title "engineer" would be a violation in most cases. Just for further clarification.
Would I be correct in my understanding?
kjdt
Jul 17, 15 11:33 pm
It doesn't matter what the laws say when the projects are imaginary.
Jul 17, 15 11:54 pm
Sure. To a point, that is true but to a point. There is a point that the law matters still.
kjdt
Jul 18, 15 12:03 am
Afraid OSBEELS has a complaint about the bridge in your head?
Jul 18, 15 12:32 am
kjdt,
What is your point?
If you are simply trying to harass or bully me to get me to leave as it appears, I am not going to do that so you might as well give up. I do not and will not bend to the will of a harasser or bully.
Jul 18, 15 12:43 am
BTW: My response with the quote from an email to OSBEELS some years back was to JeromeS and Schoon.
I inquired with the licensing boards to be clear in written form by these licensing boards so I can be certain I am not running afoul of the exemption.
Even with decks, I do calculate and size/specify structural systems. There is no reason why I shouldn't be able to calculate structural systems of buildings and structures exempt under the exemption unless the systems are beyond my knowledge and skills.
There is also practical times when engineers should be involved. I am not elaborating on that at this time with this message.
shellarchitect
Jul 18, 15 7:07 am
I come here to learn and be entertained, not for whatever this has become
Non Sequitur
Jul 18, 15 7:53 am
Basic structural calculations are simple enough that they teach them in 1st-year. It's slightly more complex than high-school physics. Not sure why the OP's African bridge became Balkins' therapy couch.
empea
Jul 18, 15 1:19 pm
There is nothing "basic" about a bridge of any size beyond the log across your backyard pond. I can't believe this thread derailed into code talk like this. Bridge engineer in is called that for a reason. Architects might know some calcs from school but I highly doubt more than a few if any would know how to actually engineer a bridge (Lateral forces, anyone? Eccentric live loads? Modal frequencies for crying out loud!)
Jul 18, 15 2:05 pm
empea,
Exactly. I agree. Some bridges and technically they are are very short spans that the structural systems are modest. I can do the design, calculation and specification for one but there does come a point where the systems become incredibly complex and it would be prudent to have a bridge engineer.
My point isn't bridges are basic. BTW: What 'code talk'. There isn't much talk about code except a comment from someone about prescriptive path and load/span tables. Bridges are not exactly prescriptive. In case of residential bridges like walk bridges over a creek then it will be like a deck in terms of load requirements which is that of the house and that of other accessory structures as being minimum uniform live load. This would be more a performance based design. Load/Span tables are good for quick sizing of modest structural members of wood with tributary areas that can be ascertained.
Vehicular load is another thing which brings a whole different load dynamics.
This OP's bridge is a large scale walk bridge but more than just big beams and a concrete or wood plank deck, etc. It is an ecological bridge which would remind me of:
I am not saying this bridge spans over a road as the example at the link.
There isn't much I can elaborate on the OP as he is very spartan about details.
Jul 18, 15 2:06 pm
Non Sequitur,
They don't always teach them in 1st year. It depends on the curriculum.
Non Sequitur
Jul 18, 15 5:08 pm
Richard, even the free-for-all community tech diplomas teach it where I am.
Alright, vacation time!
Jul 18, 15 5:46 pm
Sure, so does ABET accredited engineering associates degree program but they go much more deeper than your 4 credit course or two of engineering in a typical architecture program.
To entirely miss my point. I simply responding to you factually. At UO, it isn't even taught until Fall of the 3rd year of a curriculum on the standard curriculum path.
I'm not saying you can't enroll earlier than that. I am not saying that basic structural calculation is very hard either. My knowledge of the engineering sciences is a bit more than that of the one, two or so course(s) taught in a typical architecture program.
I know it varies. When it comes to bridges, it depends on how sophisticated the bridge is.
I estimate the bridge the OP is working on the design side would be quite a bit complex. The required engineering and complex systems involved. It isn't just concrete supporting human beings or cars. It is supporting weight of animals (some of which weighs more than a human and even that of cars). You have the earth and plants, water, and impacts of plant growth on these structures. Kind of like a green roof but on a bridge. At least that is the imagery I am getting when I think of ECOLOGICAL BRIDGE.
If the OP elaborates more, it would be great. Visual examples would be good.
If you really get right down to it, you can learn structural design by downloading and studying PDFs and websites on the topic and apply it to practice.
So, what are you getting at?
What's the criticism?
Actually lets try to get back to topic point.
Jul 18, 15 5:49 pm
Green Man wrote:
My project is in a rural area surrounding by trees and water,in brief nature.Not any building is built close to it.
Recyclable materials are an ecological way of solving the problem but,with the context it is not suitable.In facts people need a path to get on the other side of the river.People who live by agriculture could sell their goods on the other side easily and other cities.Cars can't cross the road however the two sides are economically very active.
People in that part of the country no more need houses, they have theirs.
The bridge must take into consideration the different ways to move regarding its economical impact.I might be a bridge for walkers, cars, shoots shoots.A tourism space to cross the river onto a canoe,as it is done.
By night for sure solar lighting due to its cost.The so needed bridge.It won't fall i work with engineers.
I often perform calculations it changes nothing,better it gives me quickly a deeper knowledge of my building.The river won't change it will not be realist for this case.
I reassure you that this bridge will be built.You have removed it from my head an ecological bridge.I will use it for an another project.
Albeit it is not so realist to built a bridge 700 meters long evenly for walker (safety,and so on),but what if people need it. If geographically the river is so long it is not their fault.The worries become the wind, the rain, the structure, steel or concrete,....Have you ever tried to walk 700 meters in a rural area?One question is if it rains.
As an architect i am working on a project of a bridge which will really be materialize.I would like you to give me some good ideas.
To start my bridge must be built as an ecological road,its materials must be ecological materials.
what will you give in return?
build it out of solar panels.
Both functional and green!
+++Non Sequitur
i has cheeseburger.
chigurh, I just spat coffee on my fuckin desk...thanks buddy!
Make it out of playing cards and put card tables on the bridge.
People will be able to play bridge on the bridge card bridge. They will call it the bridge bridge, and you will become famous.
Make it out of soylent green.
Build the hummer out of stone. There is a stone bridge in Rome that has been in use for over 2,000 years. That "ecological" enough?
Okay.... ecological materials... Ok. Where is this bridge? Explain the project a bit. What materials precisely are no no and okay. Ecological materials can have various meaning between different people. Is wood ecological or isn't ecological? I like to know that.
Codes and engineering standards will require some use of reinforced concrete due to seismic zone requirements unless you are anchoring into a pretty consolidated bolder of very hard rock like granite or basalt that is as big as a car or something when the footing only needs to be small.
What kind of bridge? Pedestrian or Vehicular?
I could do some of this if it were appurtenant to an exempt building. I don't know if you are permitted to practice architecture and designing bridges unless it is appurtenant to a building such as a bridge that is structurally connected to the building.
Is a bridge an "exempt" structure in Oregon?
In a very limited fashion... it can be... If it were say on one end attached and part of a house for example. Another example is a house that is a bridge at the same time. It can be if you are creative enough.
As a stand alone... maybe not. We don't see alot of cases like that for a case analysis. In other places, the wording of exemptions varies and I know a few places where it could potentially be exempt.
Normally, this would be something you would have an engineer. There is a point where it would just simply prudent to have an engineer.
It is one thing if it is a pedestrian walk bridge over a very very small stream. It is another thing when you are spanning considerable distance with considerable load.
There are exemptions in the architect and engineers laws so if you are crafty with a smidged of creativity... you can pull it into the exemption but you better know what you are doing and use good sense of judgement on whether you should get an engineer or not.
It is something that if you don't know what you are doing (whether a building designer or architect), the B.O. may require an engineer to prepare some of the drawings and specifications.
ORS 671.030
Subsection (2)(b)
(B) Is a structure used in connection with or auxiliary to a single family residential dwelling or farm building, including but not limited to a three-car garage, barn or shed or a shelter used for the housing of domestic animals or livestock.
Hint: a bridge that is part of a long drive way crossing over a stream.
but to a more limited fashion if it can be deemed an appurtenance.
(c) A person from making drawings or specifications for, or observing the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance to a building, if the building has a ground area of 4,000 square feet or less and is not more than 20 feet in height from the top surface of lowest flooring to the highest interior overhead finish of the structure.
now look at ORS 672.060
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.060
ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325(Civil penalties) do not apply to the following:
(10)A person making plans or specifications for, or supervising the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance thereto, if the building is to be used for a single family residential dwelling or farm building or is a structure used in connection with or auxiliary to a single family residential dwelling or farm building, including but not limited to a three-car garage, barn or shed or a shelter used for the housing of domestic animals or livestock. The exemption in this subsection does not apply to a registered professional engineer.
So in theory, if it falls into that... then potentially yes. Even then, you may want an engineer depending on the nature and complexity of such a 'bridge'.
If the building is commercial then a bridge used as a structure in connection with or auxilliary to a commercial building should be designed by an engineer. The language isn't as clear for commercial buildings but the word appurtenance is used and so if it indeed is considered as such then yes.
Now... I don't want the discussion to be derailed on this tangent but just to put some degree of closure to the tangent which arose out of a minor point in my sentence. When the OP further clarifies his point or question(s), then lets focus on that. Alright ?
Are cheeseburgers exempt in Oregon?
Just added 'getting stoned with Richard Balkins' to my bucket list...
Richard Balkins went up Niagara Falls in a barrel.
LOL...
Is a cheeseburger license required?
Doing something like this:
This is probably not even an issue for most places.
or even this:
(aside from issues of guard rail openings and things like that.)
but if you try to do something more sophisticated and vehicular capacity load by nature, you probably will need an engineer even if technically exempt.
This would likely require an engineer not only because of span (especially multispan bridges) but also the fact it is carrying significant load and also height of bridge to the bottom of the valley or creek/stream/river bottom.
What happens when you f--- up and your bridge fails.
https://youtu.be/j-zczJXSxnw
Slow clap, JeromeS, slow clap. Well-played.
My project is in a rural area surrounding by trees and water,in brief nature.Not any building is built close to it.
Recyclable materials are an ecological way of solving the problem but,with the context it is not suitable.In facts people need a path to get on the other side of the river.People who live by agriculture could sell their goods on the other side easily and other cities.Cars can't cross the road however the two sides are economically very active.
People in that part of the country no more need houses, they have theirs.
The bridge must take into consideration the different ways to move regarding its economical impact.I might be a bridge for walkers, cars, shoots shoots.A tourism space to cross the river onto a canoe,as it is done.
By night for sure solar lighting due to its cost.The so needed bridge.It won't fall i work with engineers.
funny how difficult it can be to discern a bot from a student.
Green Man, have you considered re-routing the river? Seems like the greenest no-brainier solution: No river to cross therefore no environmentally damaging construction is necessary.
Engineers design to failure - it's their job to know how/when/where a structure will fail and to ensure it's not under use (everything has a life span, and there are catastrophic events).
I thought the job is design to be certain it doesn't fail and there is a common practice of engineering to maximize efficiency under so called 'value engineering' which means to design with minimum redundancy level. It is always possible to design something as cheap as possible but it leaves you in a position where you have no room for overload factoring which is something we need to think ahead.
When I perform the calculations for sizing footings, structural members and so forth, I plan for sufficient I look for more than the minimum conditions. I know will have to rework foundation plan for a deck design which is fine with me but nonetheless is still going to have a degree of factor of safety so footings would not be too weak and also provide a degree of long term reliability. Not exactly bridge related but still that is how I am about structural matters.
"When I perform the calculations for sizing footings, structural members and so forth"
WikB (Wikipedia Balkens),
What project were these calcs for?
Richard your building designer business has never had any reportable income. Aren't there forums somewhere for garbage collectors and custodial staff, where you could pontificate on your real-life occupations instead of struggling to keep up your pretend ones?
Richard, I don't know a single engineer that doesn't use factors of safety in his or her calculations. Your post seems to imply that there is a problem in the engineering profession because of value engineering, but all value engineering exists within factors of safety. Also, you can't be certain that a structure won't fail. Everything fails eventually, given enough time and use. Like 3tk said, the job is to design with a lifespan in mind that reflects the cost or importance of a structure.
I can assure it won't fail under practical loads but over time, nails will need replacing as well as deck screws need replacing but I can assure you that you won't break the 4x8 beams spaced 5 feet apart and you have 2x8 joists @ 12" o.c. in between it and with 3 footings under the 4 x 8 beams over a 6' span. So with a 10" diameter footing inset by 1-ft. and 2-ft. on-center between the 3 footings. The joists and beams, all connected together with heavy duty Strong Tie connectors. You have to weigh an awful lot to beak through the beam.
I can guarantee that even with jam packed full of 300-500# human beings. However, I can assure it won't buckle or break anytime soon under average load condition.
Sure, if you give enough time for wood rot to eventually happen with absolutely no maintenance, anything will eventually fail. Well, even with maintenance, materials do eventually fail.
The question is to what extent is the factor of safety. Absolute minimum? Which may or may not be that much and then that is good for brand new but code required minimum should be factor of safety should still be met by end of service life that is being considered with a certain level of maintenance. This means if that service life is 20 years, it should still meet the building code requirements including the maximum peak factor of safety.
kjdt,
The last time I checked, tax returns are private information that is not available to public records request. Remember, I'm a sole-proprietorship so my income is recorded under personal income which you can not request unless duly authorized by me and they would have to context me to verify you are authorized. It doesn't matter if it is IRS or Oregon Department of Revenue.
NOTE: I am neither confirming or denying your claim.
There are other sources for employment and earnings history.
You don't need to confirm or deny anything, what I stated are facts. Think: how else would I know your garbage man history?
Are you allowed to call yourself a Sanitation Engineer in Oregon? Or is that going to get you fined by the board of engineers?
I'm curious, Richard, you don't have a PE license, but you do your own structural calculations? Who stamps the structural drawings for your projects?
Richard works on exempt buildings. No calculations required. The code prescriptively determines the engineering via joist span tables, minimum footing dimensions, nailing patterns, etc. any calculations Richard does primarily makes him feel important and costs his "clients" extra money
who needs a bridge...just invent floating shoes
I wasn't a garbage man. I did janitorial/custodial as a part time job because architecture and building design in Astoria and vicinity is more a seasonal job kind of thing. Design is usually during the late fall to mid-spring time frame. That's when the clients tend to contract for services.
As for my earning history, the only accurate source is what is what I report to IRS and Oregon Department of Revenues and for any Washington project... Department of Revenue.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1.pdf
http://www.oregon.gov/dor/pertax/pages/800-406.aspx
This stuff is CONFIDENTIAL information.
Therefore what are you basing as my earned income. The only source is through those sources and if you have that, then someone broke the law and if you initiated it or become a party of it then you are all part of an unlawful act.
JeromeS:
Actually, even in Oregon, I can perform structural calculations and apply the knowledge of mathematical, physical and engineering sciences as they are incidental to building design such as beam sizing, footing sizing and so forth. I just can not offer the services as "Engineering services". Similar to an Architect overlap of practice. I just can not offer services under the professional engineer title or bill the services as "engineering services".
I can perform structural calculations within the context of building design of exempt buildings and structures as they pertain the the making of plans and specifications. Structural design and calculation is incidental to making plans and specifications.
Mr. Balkins:
The Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying
(OSBEELS) received your inquiry and offer the following.
Single family residences (SFR) are exempt from the engineering laws
according to Oregon Revised Statute (ORS) 672.060(10). This would also
include structural calculations for a SFR. Specifically, "(10) A person
making plans or specifications for, or supervising the erection,
enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance thereto, if
the building is to be used for a single family residential dwelling or
farm building or is a structure used in connection with or auxiliary to
a single family residential dwelling or farm building, including but not
limited to a three-car garage, barn or shed or a shelter used for the
housing of domestic animals or livestock. ORS 672.002 to 672.325 do not
prevent a person from making plans or specifications for, or supervising
the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an
appurtenance thereto, if the building has a ground area of 4,000 square
feet or less and is not more than 20 feet in height from the top surface
of lowest flooring to the highest interior overhead finish of the
structure."
Regarding the use of the engineer title, ORS 672.002(2) states, "(2)
"Engineer," "licensed engineer," "professional engineer," "registered
engineer" or "registered professional engineer" means a person who is
registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice
engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 to 672.325." If
you are aware of a person using the title of engineer without
registration, please file a complaint. The OSBEELS complaint form and
instructions can be found by the Regulation link at
http://www.oregon.gov/OSBEELS/.
If you should have any further question, please contact the Board
office.
jrw
James R. (JR) Wilkinson, Investigator
670 Hawthorne Ave. SE
Suite 220
Salem, OR 97301
503.362.2666 ex. 24
wilkinsonjr@osbeels.org
-----Original Message-----
From: rick balkins [mailto:rickbalkins@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:09 PM
To: WilkensonJ@osbeels.org
Cc: JR Wilkinson
Subject: Is license registration required to perform structural
calculations on exempt buildings such as Single Family Residences
Is a license / registration required to perform structural calculations
on exempt buildings such as Single Family Residences
For example:
Truss design calculations in accordance wit ANSI/TPI 1-2007 in direct
connection with S.F.R.s Structural Beam calculations, foundation system
calculations and other calculations in accordance to "engineering
standards" such as ASCE standards like ASCE 7, and other standards like
ACI 318, ect.
Under my understanding, doing such practice on exempt buildings and
structures would be exempt from the registration/license requirements.
I do recognize advertising services using the words engineering (in most
cases except that use of the words under fair use laws that does not
create the effect of referring to oneself as an engineer) OR use of the
title "engineer" would be a violation in most cases. Just for further
clarification.
Would I be correct in my understanding?
It doesn't matter what the laws say when the projects are imaginary.
Sure. To a point, that is true but to a point. There is a point that the law matters still.
Afraid OSBEELS has a complaint about the bridge in your head?
kjdt,
What is your point?
If you are simply trying to harass or bully me to get me to leave as it appears, I am not going to do that so you might as well give up. I do not and will not bend to the will of a harasser or bully.
BTW: My response with the quote from an email to OSBEELS some years back was to JeromeS and Schoon.
I inquired with the licensing boards to be clear in written form by these licensing boards so I can be certain I am not running afoul of the exemption.
Even with decks, I do calculate and size/specify structural systems. There is no reason why I shouldn't be able to calculate structural systems of buildings and structures exempt under the exemption unless the systems are beyond my knowledge and skills.
There is also practical times when engineers should be involved. I am not elaborating on that at this time with this message.
I come here to learn and be entertained, not for whatever this has become
Basic structural calculations are simple enough that they teach them in 1st-year. It's slightly more complex than high-school physics. Not sure why the OP's African bridge became Balkins' therapy couch.
There is nothing "basic" about a bridge of any size beyond the log across your backyard pond. I can't believe this thread derailed into code talk like this. Bridge engineer in is called that for a reason. Architects might know some calcs from school but I highly doubt more than a few if any would know how to actually engineer a bridge (Lateral forces, anyone? Eccentric live loads? Modal frequencies for crying out loud!)
empea,
Exactly. I agree. Some bridges and technically they are are very short spans that the structural systems are modest. I can do the design, calculation and specification for one but there does come a point where the systems become incredibly complex and it would be prudent to have a bridge engineer.
My point isn't bridges are basic. BTW: What 'code talk'. There isn't much talk about code except a comment from someone about prescriptive path and load/span tables. Bridges are not exactly prescriptive. In case of residential bridges like walk bridges over a creek then it will be like a deck in terms of load requirements which is that of the house and that of other accessory structures as being minimum uniform live load. This would be more a performance based design. Load/Span tables are good for quick sizing of modest structural members of wood with tributary areas that can be ascertained.
Vehicular load is another thing which brings a whole different load dynamics.
This OP's bridge is a large scale walk bridge but more than just big beams and a concrete or wood plank deck, etc. It is an ecological bridge which would remind me of:
I am not saying this bridge spans over a road as the example at the link.
There isn't much I can elaborate on the OP as he is very spartan about details.
Non Sequitur,
They don't always teach them in 1st year. It depends on the curriculum.
Richard, even the free-for-all community tech diplomas teach it where I am.
Alright, vacation time!
Sure, so does ABET accredited engineering associates degree program but they go much more deeper than your 4 credit course or two of engineering in a typical architecture program.
To entirely miss my point. I simply responding to you factually. At UO, it isn't even taught until Fall of the 3rd year of a curriculum on the standard curriculum path.
http://architecture.uoregon.edu/sites/architecture2.uoregon.edu/files/downloads/pdf/programs/BArch-insert-UPDATED.pdf
I'm not saying you can't enroll earlier than that. I am not saying that basic structural calculation is very hard either. My knowledge of the engineering sciences is a bit more than that of the one, two or so course(s) taught in a typical architecture program.
I know it varies. When it comes to bridges, it depends on how sophisticated the bridge is.
I estimate the bridge the OP is working on the design side would be quite a bit complex. The required engineering and complex systems involved. It isn't just concrete supporting human beings or cars. It is supporting weight of animals (some of which weighs more than a human and even that of cars). You have the earth and plants, water, and impacts of plant growth on these structures. Kind of like a green roof but on a bridge. At least that is the imagery I am getting when I think of ECOLOGICAL BRIDGE.
If the OP elaborates more, it would be great. Visual examples would be good.
If you really get right down to it, you can learn structural design by downloading and studying PDFs and websites on the topic and apply it to practice.
So, what are you getting at?
What's the criticism?
Actually lets try to get back to topic point.
Green Man wrote:
My project is in a rural area surrounding by trees and water,in brief nature.Not any building is built close to it.
Recyclable materials are an ecological way of solving the problem but,with the context it is not suitable.In facts people need a path to get on the other side of the river.People who live by agriculture could sell their goods on the other side easily and other cities.Cars can't cross the road however the two sides are economically very active.
People in that part of the country no more need houses, they have theirs.
The bridge must take into consideration the different ways to move regarding its economical impact.I might be a bridge for walkers, cars, shoots shoots.A tourism space to cross the river onto a canoe,as it is done.
By night for sure solar lighting due to its cost.The so needed bridge.It won't fall i work with engineers.
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I often perform calculations it changes nothing,better it gives me quickly a deeper knowledge of my building.The river won't change it will not be realist for this case.
I reassure you that this bridge will be built.You have removed it from my head an ecological bridge.I will use it for an another project.
Albeit it is not so realist to built a bridge 700 meters long evenly for walker (safety,and so on),but what if people need it. If geographically the river is so long it is not their fault.The worries become the wind, the rain, the structure, steel or concrete,....Have you ever tried to walk 700 meters in a rural area?One question is if it rains.