I'm in my late 20s and about to graduate from a good school with an M.Arch. I will be moving to a small city to be with my husband, which lacks a competitive architecture market. I'm wondering if now is the time to have kids (maybe we can relocate to a bigger city in a year or two) or if I should wait until I get a few years of experience under my belt (even at a less exciting firm) to make re-entry into the field easier. This is a very big and personal question for this forum but any insight would be appreciated!
gwharton
Apr 20, 15 10:35 pm
My advice is: don't wait. The children will be a much bigger long term benefit to your life than a couple of years of interning, and it's better to have them when you're young.
JeromeS
Apr 20, 15 10:39 pm
My advice: there is never a good time to have kids, but having them earlier is always better..
DTL DWG
Apr 20, 15 10:56 pm
have them while you can....
when I started in NYC my dad called me up and said - "How old are you again?"
"23 years old" - me
"When I was 23 I already had 2 kids, what's the hold-up?" - dad
"5 Years of architecture school and this ain't the 70's man, I'm sub-leasing can't exactly get a family going yet."
have had 2 kids since 30 and work more than I did as a 20 year old, not sure what I even did back then....
management skills come fast with children ;)
chigurh
Apr 21, 15 8:56 am
have kids.
work will always be there.
be aware that if you want to get some time in a big city as you said, moving to an urban center with kids is shitty. I just posted some notes in the exburbs thread, but housing, daycare, schools, and just daily 'to and from' tasks become exponentially harder and more expensive with kids in a big city.
shellarchitect
Apr 21, 15 9:12 am
I completely agree with the above but would like to add that you should start on exams asap as well. Hopefully you are in a state that allows concurrent IDP and AREs.
boring firms tend to have great hours, pay/benefits, and stability. exciting firms tend towards the opposite (gross generalization)
Donna Sink
Apr 21, 15 9:25 am
As JeromeS says there is never an easy time to have kids. But there are benefits both ways: when you have them young you have lots of energy; when you have them later you have more patience.
I'm more intrigued by your comment about working at a "less exciting firm". How much work experience do you have already? If you've never worked in a firm than ANY experience, even in a shitty firm, will be an educational experience. If you have significant work experience already, can you spend time honing your focus by doing things like competitions or research while you're having kids? Have you started IDP? Is being registered important to you?
There are so many variables.
Sarah Hamilton
Apr 21, 15 10:49 am
Another thing to consider, is when you say "have kids" do you mean stay at home? Any time you take off from architecture makes it that much harder to get back in. If you're a recent grad, then you don't have a TON of experience, but have lots of software knowledge, and firms don't have to pay you too much. If you take a few years off for kids, then you still won't have any experience, but you won't have current software knowledge, either, and you're pay will NEED to be higher to offset daycare, ect.
I say all this from personal experience, and I may be the only commenter that says wait on kids, but I graduated in 2006, had a baby in 2008, and then got laid off that same year. I wasn't able to get back into another firm quickly (we all know that economic sob story). I have since changed careers, but it would be stupid for a firm to hire me. I don't have the building knowledge or experience, and I can't BIM, or do any of the things the fancy graphics lovers can do. Plus, I'd need to make at least $50,000. A firm would be better off hiring a grad from 2015, than they would me, no matter how much I love architecture.
I love my child, but there will always be a part of me that wonders.
And maybe you aren't in the south, and you won't have to play in a boys club filled with antiquated ideas of an aproned wife at home the children. I still think my firm let me go, instead of the male coworker that didn't work as hard, simple because I had a 7 month baby I should be home taking care of, and he had a family he needed to provide for.
On the fence
Apr 21, 15 11:01 am
Maybe talk with your husband.
x intern
Apr 21, 15 11:56 am
Its going to drastically affect your life no matter when you do it. The upside to waiting is you will probably be established in a firm and they will be willing to work with you. Down side is waiting means you get to be the old parents but that is seeming more common these days. I can tell you it costs A LOT to send kids to daycare in a big city, to the tune of around a grand a month each. We have twins, do the math on that on a architects salary. If you will be in an area where there is family it will make a huge difference in your options of handling conflicts with work though. If you don't have a support network where you live it can have a HUGE affect on work. Our experience is you are missing 3-4 days each time they are sick and the first couple of years they are sick a lot in a daycare.
BulgarBlogger
Apr 21, 15 12:51 pm
Get your license first, then get knocked up as much as you like...
( o Y o )
Apr 21, 15 12:52 pm
Maybe talk with your husband.
WTF does he know?
Donna Sink
Apr 21, 15 1:13 pm
For reference, I was registered and 36 years old when I had my first and only kid, and I worked in a firm that, as x intern says, was supportive and willing to work with me. Eventually it was all too hard, though, and I quit and moved to a new job where I was essentially self-employed and could set my own hours. But then I never had a second kid because starting up that business was so demanding - it's fine, I really always only ever wanted one, anyway.
The first few years with a kid or a couple young ones are HARD, no matter what. Will your husband's job allow him to take some of the new-parent load, or will it all fall to you? Will his job's health insurance cover your maternity costs (many insurance plans don't cover maternity, at all, which is shitty)?
BulgarBlogger
Apr 21, 15 1:29 pm
Donna- what I meant by getting your license first and then having kids is that at least you can use your license after the first couple of years... I can't tell you how many people have used their kids as the excuse for why they haven't gotten their boards yet. Even if you had no other reason to get licensed, it is my opinion that having the license, even with an employment gap due to raising children, will look much better on a resume than someone who doesn't have a license who has kids. It shows commitment to the profession at the least.
shellarchitect
Apr 21, 15 1:33 pm
wtf, everyone is basically helpful and no mean comments?
Donna Sink
Apr 21, 15 1:38 pm
I agree, Bulgar, I think the license is incredibly important and urge all to get it! Your comment just inspired me to mention my own situation, for reference. And I really did want to get licensed before getting pregnant, that was just a personal goal for me, but it varies for everyone.
I do think that having the license also gives you flexibility after a few years off to take on small jobs while still being a caregiver.
curtkram
Apr 21, 15 2:36 pm
creating a kid is ultimately creating a significant amount of suffering.
the carbon footprint of a person has to be much more than that of an SUV. apparently the average CO2 emissions per capita in the US was 5,903 metric tons in 2006. that's per year. if you create a person that lives to 70, that's 413,210 metric tons of CO2 emissions. it's kind of a catch-22. if you create a person, your kind of destroying the planet you want that person to live on.
Don't overthink it....Just have one and life will work out...
Mr_Wiggin
Apr 21, 15 5:17 pm
^^Don't forget CH4 emissions in addition to other hot gasses!
I'm in the same boat, weird time, and as luck would have it having a child would actually be a treatment/cure to my wife's health problems. As with most of life, there's never really a good or convenient time for anything, best of luck to you!
Miles Jaffe
Apr 21, 15 8:55 pm
Let's get to the important question: will the OP raise the kid to be an architect?
chigurh
Apr 21, 15 9:10 pm
i hope to god not...steer clear!!!
Miles Jaffe
Apr 21, 15 10:38 pm
Careful now, you might forever ruin the dreams of some young optimist.
Carrera
Apr 22, 15 1:21 am
Voice of experience from having 4 kids - get a dog, get your license, have 2 kids, freelance from home, in that order.
BulgarBlogger
Apr 22, 15 8:58 am
"Don't overthink it....Just have one and life will work out..."
... and this is why we have the ghettos...
chigurh
Apr 22, 15 10:01 am
bulgar, anybody that is posting here would hardly be the case for that dumb statement.
Miles Jaffe
Apr 22, 15 11:00 am
There is a whole raft of reasons why we have ghettos, and they do not include Bulgar's.
BulgarBlogger
Apr 22, 15 12:37 pm
guys- you clearly don't have any sense of humor... but let's face it- statistically speaking: the groups with the highest illegitimacy rates are the groups that are struggling economically, educationally, with crime, and so forth
had to google "illegitimacy rates" so your copy paste would make sense, it's illegitimate births rate, and baby making is a direct consequence of many parts of that struggle, like not having education, health care and food; not the cause.
BulgarBlogger
Apr 22, 15 12:47 pm
ok- sure; not the cause, but I contend it is a contributing factor. When you have to work as a single mother to support your kids and aren't there to give them guidance, then your absence is not helping to instill any values that may help your kid raise him/herself up by the bootstraps.
Popping out kids is easy; being there for them as a mentor is something else entirely.
JLC-1
Apr 22, 15 1:03 pm
Absolutely agree, but it's a societal support system that's failing the poor mostly; I see it here all the time, rich kids good for nothing get in trouble with drugs, alcohol, guns, etc. but the get bailed. Same story, absent parents (by choice) but in this case it gets "media attention" , like the hilton fuckface antics on a plane. their mentor is ol' good deep pockets.
chigurh
Apr 22, 15 1:08 pm
again, I repeat, you think the demographic that posts here is of that socioeconomic status?
actually, now that I think about it, architecture salaries are certainly dipping below poverty level compensation, good think most have rich parents to support them
Carrera
Apr 22, 15 1:17 pm
Won’t bore you with details, but I tried to mentor a guy in the hood….he told me exactly what’s going on and how they play the system, and kids are part of their economic equation. Not saying it’s their fault entirely.
BulgarBlogger
Apr 22, 15 1:28 pm
Ok- first off- no I don't think the majority of architects are of that demographic (although I haven't seen the statistics).
Second:
I was addressing the general comment: "Don't overthink it....Just have one and life will work out..." Generally speaking, this is bad advice by virtue of my previous reasonings. This type of mentality does not help poor people- it hurts them further. Its kind of like saying- "I'll just keep on putting my expenses on the credit card..." And lets not forget- hard working tax payers like you and me get to pay for that kid's food vouchers if the parents can't afford to provide. If the OP found herself in a situation where neither her husband nor her can't find a job, she'll have to apply for food stamps- paid by none other than.......... US- the the TAX payers. So it's good practice to strategically plan when/if you want to have kids. You can't just have them and hope for the best. Doing anything else would be totally irresponsible to both yourself and your fellow tax payers. I don't want to pay to raise someone else's kids.
Third:
I might have addressed this in a post a while ago, but there is a big difference between having CLASS and having money. The reason why this matters is because there are plenty of people in this industry who make decent money, but have no class. Our clients, like it or not, want architects who not only have the know-how, but who have CLASS. And those who are able to pick up such clients usually get paid the money required to raise kids comfortably and not rely on loans or credit cards to get by. Where do you think we pick up our clients- at some dive? (maybe) But The important ones come at some charity/art function or some dinner etcetera. I would be highly impressed if some BIM guy who graduated with a degree in Architectural Tech who speaks English with an accent will be able to pick up a client of that CALIBRE. Its the type of world we live in.
SO- before having kids, consider your financial situation...
Miles Jaffe
Apr 22, 15 4:48 pm
To the OP: Raising a child is the single most important job you will ever have. Get your priorities straight and don't screw it up.
Carrera
Apr 22, 15 5:02 pm
Funny how you have to go to school for 5 years to draw a building and you don't even have to go to a seminar to bring a life into this world, shouldn't there be a license for that?
Miles Jaffe
Apr 22, 15 5:04 pm
Exactly. You need a license to drive a car but any idiot can have a kid. And it seems that most do.
sameolddoctor
Apr 22, 15 6:02 pm
Someone up above said it right. If you think that a license is of any value at all (I am still undecided about that) - then study hard and get it done before you have a kid. Working with young kids around is still OK, but studying is hell
awaiting_deletion
Apr 22, 15 8:07 pm
hoping my kids will have learned CAD by ages 10 so I can get rid of my draftsmen.
I'm in my late 20s and about to graduate from a good school with an M.Arch. I will be moving to a small city to be with my husband, which lacks a competitive architecture market. I'm wondering if now is the time to have kids (maybe we can relocate to a bigger city in a year or two) or if I should wait until I get a few years of experience under my belt (even at a less exciting firm) to make re-entry into the field easier. This is a very big and personal question for this forum but any insight would be appreciated!
My advice is: don't wait. The children will be a much bigger long term benefit to your life than a couple of years of interning, and it's better to have them when you're young.
My advice: there is never a good time to have kids, but having them earlier is always better..
have them while you can....
when I started in NYC my dad called me up and said - "How old are you again?"
"23 years old" - me
"When I was 23 I already had 2 kids, what's the hold-up?" - dad
"5 Years of architecture school and this ain't the 70's man, I'm sub-leasing can't exactly get a family going yet."
have had 2 kids since 30 and work more than I did as a 20 year old, not sure what I even did back then....
management skills come fast with children ;)
have kids.
work will always be there.
be aware that if you want to get some time in a big city as you said, moving to an urban center with kids is shitty. I just posted some notes in the exburbs thread, but housing, daycare, schools, and just daily 'to and from' tasks become exponentially harder and more expensive with kids in a big city.
I completely agree with the above but would like to add that you should start on exams asap as well. Hopefully you are in a state that allows concurrent IDP and AREs.
boring firms tend to have great hours, pay/benefits, and stability. exciting firms tend towards the opposite (gross generalization)
As JeromeS says there is never an easy time to have kids. But there are benefits both ways: when you have them young you have lots of energy; when you have them later you have more patience.
I'm more intrigued by your comment about working at a "less exciting firm". How much work experience do you have already? If you've never worked in a firm than ANY experience, even in a shitty firm, will be an educational experience. If you have significant work experience already, can you spend time honing your focus by doing things like competitions or research while you're having kids? Have you started IDP? Is being registered important to you?
There are so many variables.
Another thing to consider, is when you say "have kids" do you mean stay at home? Any time you take off from architecture makes it that much harder to get back in. If you're a recent grad, then you don't have a TON of experience, but have lots of software knowledge, and firms don't have to pay you too much. If you take a few years off for kids, then you still won't have any experience, but you won't have current software knowledge, either, and you're pay will NEED to be higher to offset daycare, ect.
I say all this from personal experience, and I may be the only commenter that says wait on kids, but I graduated in 2006, had a baby in 2008, and then got laid off that same year. I wasn't able to get back into another firm quickly (we all know that economic sob story). I have since changed careers, but it would be stupid for a firm to hire me. I don't have the building knowledge or experience, and I can't BIM, or do any of the things the fancy graphics lovers can do. Plus, I'd need to make at least $50,000. A firm would be better off hiring a grad from 2015, than they would me, no matter how much I love architecture.
I love my child, but there will always be a part of me that wonders.
And maybe you aren't in the south, and you won't have to play in a boys club filled with antiquated ideas of an aproned wife at home the children. I still think my firm let me go, instead of the male coworker that didn't work as hard, simple because I had a 7 month baby I should be home taking care of, and he had a family he needed to provide for.
Maybe talk with your husband.
Its going to drastically affect your life no matter when you do it. The upside to waiting is you will probably be established in a firm and they will be willing to work with you. Down side is waiting means you get to be the old parents but that is seeming more common these days. I can tell you it costs A LOT to send kids to daycare in a big city, to the tune of around a grand a month each. We have twins, do the math on that on a architects salary. If you will be in an area where there is family it will make a huge difference in your options of handling conflicts with work though. If you don't have a support network where you live it can have a HUGE affect on work. Our experience is you are missing 3-4 days each time they are sick and the first couple of years they are sick a lot in a daycare.
Get your license first, then get knocked up as much as you like...
Maybe talk with your husband.
WTF does he know?
For reference, I was registered and 36 years old when I had my first and only kid, and I worked in a firm that, as x intern says, was supportive and willing to work with me. Eventually it was all too hard, though, and I quit and moved to a new job where I was essentially self-employed and could set my own hours. But then I never had a second kid because starting up that business was so demanding - it's fine, I really always only ever wanted one, anyway.
The first few years with a kid or a couple young ones are HARD, no matter what. Will your husband's job allow him to take some of the new-parent load, or will it all fall to you? Will his job's health insurance cover your maternity costs (many insurance plans don't cover maternity, at all, which is shitty)?
Donna- what I meant by getting your license first and then having kids is that at least you can use your license after the first couple of years... I can't tell you how many people have used their kids as the excuse for why they haven't gotten their boards yet. Even if you had no other reason to get licensed, it is my opinion that having the license, even with an employment gap due to raising children, will look much better on a resume than someone who doesn't have a license who has kids. It shows commitment to the profession at the least.
wtf, everyone is basically helpful and no mean comments?
I agree, Bulgar, I think the license is incredibly important and urge all to get it! Your comment just inspired me to mention my own situation, for reference. And I really did want to get licensed before getting pregnant, that was just a personal goal for me, but it varies for everyone.
I do think that having the license also gives you flexibility after a few years off to take on small jobs while still being a caregiver.
creating a kid is ultimately creating a significant amount of suffering.
the carbon footprint of a person has to be much more than that of an SUV. apparently the average CO2 emissions per capita in the US was 5,903 metric tons in 2006. that's per year. if you create a person that lives to 70, that's 413,210 metric tons of CO2 emissions. it's kind of a catch-22. if you create a person, your kind of destroying the planet you want that person to live on.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/think-before-you-breed/?_r=0
http://why-im-sold-on-antinatalism.blogspot.com/2012/01/benatarian-asymmetry.html
Don't overthink it....Just have one and life will work out...
^^Don't forget CH4 emissions in addition to other hot gasses!
I'm in the same boat, weird time, and as luck would have it having a child would actually be a treatment/cure to my wife's health problems. As with most of life, there's never really a good or convenient time for anything, best of luck to you!
Let's get to the important question: will the OP raise the kid to be an architect?
i hope to god not...steer clear!!!
Careful now, you might forever ruin the dreams of some young optimist.
Voice of experience from having 4 kids - get a dog, get your license, have 2 kids, freelance from home, in that order.
"Don't overthink it....Just have one and life will work out..."
... and this is why we have the ghettos...
bulgar, anybody that is posting here would hardly be the case for that dumb statement.
There is a whole raft of reasons why we have ghettos, and they do not include Bulgar's.
guys- you clearly don't have any sense of humor... but let's face it- statistically speaking: the groups with the highest illegitimacy rates are the groups that are struggling economically, educationally, with crime, and so forth
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf
had to google "illegitimacy rates" so your copy paste would make sense, it's illegitimate births rate, and baby making is a direct consequence of many parts of that struggle, like not having education, health care and food; not the cause.
ok- sure; not the cause, but I contend it is a contributing factor. When you have to work as a single mother to support your kids and aren't there to give them guidance, then your absence is not helping to instill any values that may help your kid raise him/herself up by the bootstraps.
Popping out kids is easy; being there for them as a mentor is something else entirely.
Absolutely agree, but it's a societal support system that's failing the poor mostly; I see it here all the time, rich kids good for nothing get in trouble with drugs, alcohol, guns, etc. but the get bailed. Same story, absent parents (by choice) but in this case it gets "media attention" , like the hilton fuckface antics on a plane. their mentor is ol' good deep pockets.
again, I repeat, you think the demographic that posts here is of that socioeconomic status?
actually, now that I think about it, architecture salaries are certainly dipping below poverty level compensation, good think most have rich parents to support them
Won’t bore you with details, but I tried to mentor a guy in the hood….he told me exactly what’s going on and how they play the system, and kids are part of their economic equation. Not saying it’s their fault entirely.
Ok- first off- no I don't think the majority of architects are of that demographic (although I haven't seen the statistics).
Second:
I was addressing the general comment: "Don't overthink it....Just have one and life will work out..." Generally speaking, this is bad advice by virtue of my previous reasonings. This type of mentality does not help poor people- it hurts them further. Its kind of like saying- "I'll just keep on putting my expenses on the credit card..." And lets not forget- hard working tax payers like you and me get to pay for that kid's food vouchers if the parents can't afford to provide. If the OP found herself in a situation where neither her husband nor her can't find a job, she'll have to apply for food stamps- paid by none other than.......... US- the the TAX payers. So it's good practice to strategically plan when/if you want to have kids. You can't just have them and hope for the best. Doing anything else would be totally irresponsible to both yourself and your fellow tax payers. I don't want to pay to raise someone else's kids.
Third:
I might have addressed this in a post a while ago, but there is a big difference between having CLASS and having money. The reason why this matters is because there are plenty of people in this industry who make decent money, but have no class. Our clients, like it or not, want architects who not only have the know-how, but who have CLASS. And those who are able to pick up such clients usually get paid the money required to raise kids comfortably and not rely on loans or credit cards to get by. Where do you think we pick up our clients- at some dive? (maybe) But The important ones come at some charity/art function or some dinner etcetera. I would be highly impressed if some BIM guy who graduated with a degree in Architectural Tech who speaks English with an accent will be able to pick up a client of that CALIBRE. Its the type of world we live in.
SO- before having kids, consider your financial situation...
To the OP: Raising a child is the single most important job you will ever have. Get your priorities straight and don't screw it up.
Funny how you have to go to school for 5 years to draw a building and you don't even have to go to a seminar to bring a life into this world, shouldn't there be a license for that?
Exactly. You need a license to drive a car but any idiot can have a kid. And it seems that most do.
Someone up above said it right. If you think that a license is of any value at all (I am still undecided about that) - then study hard and get it done before you have a kid. Working with young kids around is still OK, but studying is hell
hoping my kids will have learned CAD by ages 10 so I can get rid of my draftsmen.