I'm Aymen , a 3rd year architecture student , and i'm working currently on a project , it's a pavilion for Aeronautics , well i had the idea to make the floors rotating but as soon as i started working on the structure i found a lot of troubles , i think i should go for steel construction but is it possible to do with this kind of structure ? i mean the 1st floor rotate with 8 degrees and the 2nd floor also rotate with 8 degrees ( which mean 16 degrees to the ground floor ) , so the whole traditional concept of steel or concrete structure is lost , it's really hard and i need your help , this is my designing concept till now of course i would love to hear your ideas :D
awaiting_deletion
Apr 18, 15 9:04 pm
it's actually a very simple structure, if you had one, and I don't understand why the columns have to have anything to do with the slightly skewed floor plates.
awaiting_deletion
Apr 18, 15 9:26 pm
.... you're modeling presumably is in Revit and then rendering in 3dsMax in Mental Ray with the typical Physical Sky background......come on let's put some effort into this, I could do that in 2 hours....
The floors have only slab thickness as you've modeled it. You are going to need transfer beams if the column grids orientate themselves to the floor plate orientation....which is not efficient.
so if you can do a very simple internal grid for all things within the box of the envelope, i am sure from the birds eye view you can get a few orthogonal orientated columsn.
then do cantileveers and transfer beams as required for various lengths beyond the column grid.
for small variation off the orthogonal grid, you can simply extend the steel reinforced concrete.
Boukhouidem
Apr 19, 15 7:17 am
Thanks for your reply ,
i did this rendering just to explain my idea , of course i'll do more efforts in it :D
Now as for the structure , it will be a mixed construction , ill do the main part ( with the rotating floors ) in steel , and the other parts of the building with simple concrete structure.
So your idea consist on decomposing the load on multiple grids , and those grids will eventually hold the extended parts of the rotating floors. now i have two questions , 1* the columns you posted in the first pic seem to be in full concrete , don't you think that making IPN600 columns ( steel ) will be more helpful ?
2* the columns in the ground floor will appear in some unfavorable places in the 2nd floor since it rotate and the same in 3rd floor , so my question , how can i resolve this problem ? can i change the position of steel column from floor to floor since the whole structure is connected with the beams grids ?
Thanks :)
gruen
Apr 19, 15 10:12 am
Ok. There are some real rotating buildings in the real world. So I will suspend disbelief for a minute. The main structural issue is that you have a large floor plate that you want to rotate - which means very long cantilevers off a central axis - which means a very deep structure. I think you need to look at how rotating bridges are built-a very deep truss- and compare what they look like vs your structure.
gruen
Apr 19, 15 10:15 am
Or do mean- rotated - but not able to rotate?
If it's a static building then what Olaf said.
Non Sequitur
Apr 19, 15 10:29 am
8-degree rotation is so last year. 11-degree is where it's at now.
Boukhouidem
Apr 19, 15 10:35 am
Thanks a lot Gruen ,
i'll research more on how these bridges are built. the floors are rotated with 8 degrees each time , but the structure isn't dynamic , it's static .. maybe i'll go for a dynamic architecture ! David fisher's skyscraper in Dubai is one of the finest examples to get inspiration of , but still i need to deal with this structure before going to the next step. the main trouble is how to deal with all the columns that appears in the rotated floors in some random places , because in the ground floor the column follow the grid but this grid is kind of lost in the second floor because the whole floor is rotated with 8 degrees , and in the 3rd floor it shall be 16 degrees so how to deal with this problem ?
Boukhouidem
Apr 19, 15 10:37 am
Thanks Non Sequitur ,
So do you mean i should rotate the floor with 11 degree ? can you tell me why please :D
Sarah Hamilton
Apr 19, 15 10:58 am
Because eleven gives you that extra push to take it over the cliff!
bouk my main point is "transfer" beams....steel or concrete whatever......put the columns on each floor in the favorable positions. see if any line up or small adjustments make lining up possible. then with simple math figure disproportions of assumed loads. by the time you get to the first floor you may have beams that are deeper tham 6 feet (2m) or something and columns to match.
archanonymous
Apr 19, 15 12:27 pm
Use a consistent column grid that falls inside a common footprint along all floorplates. And you'll probably want to add either much deeper structure, or a full-floor-height truss along the edge of the building, which is always a nice expression.
Boukhouidem
Apr 19, 15 1:04 pm
ThanksOlaf Design Ninja , i'll try to make the structure using Robot or Advance steel.
Boukhouidem
Apr 19, 15 1:05 pm
Thank you archanonymous , can you provide me with an example of a full floor height truss please ?
Miles Jaffe
Apr 19, 15 1:12 pm
gruen, for a large dynamic rotation you could model the system on a series of stacked lazy Susans.
x-jla
Apr 19, 15 1:19 pm
+++non sequitur
x-jla
Apr 19, 15 1:19 pm
12 degree and above is considered "avant garde"
awaiting_deletion
Apr 19, 15 1:40 pm
i wouldn't get into full structural modeling yet, but you may learn what i am proposing this way.......model it as per design and then visually find a situation that appears to have the max loads....for instance one column may go 2-3 floors and land halfway between two columns at ground floor. i would figure the loads on this column and get a feel foe the size of this beam before i did everything.....you may switch back to 8 degrees instead of 11 after doing this..
miles speaking of bearing plates and bearing balls etc.......home depot carry that? or should i go car parts store....trying to think of names for parts like that or from what in home depot i could rip the part out of.....
If you use columns, your trusses should run in both directions, as in the last example. If you can use two parallel full-height shear walls at the far ends of the buil, it is reasonable to show the trusses only running on two faces of the building.
awaiting_deletion
Apr 19, 15 2:50 pm
bouk when you are done we'd love to see the development.
Olaf, try Mcmaster-carr. HD usually has the shittiest stuff... worth the premium mcmaster charges to get good parts.
Miles Jaffe
Apr 19, 15 3:57 pm
Another vote for McMaster-Carr. Overnight delivery from an incredibly deep catalog, mostly US made.
Apr 19, 15 4:23 pm
Miles, is right on to something. Of course these individual plates need to be engineered in large scale. However, you'll need a core to rotate the structure on. If I had a choice, I would also have a curved 'track' wall that supports the structure. Whether you have 360 degree rotation or say an arc. Realistically, you probably may consider rotation track where you can track solar arc during a chosen peak period.
It is very expensive and hard to maintain not to mention the motors required to drive the movement. I would use steel and wood for the floor 'plates' and reinforced concrete mass piers.
awaiting_deletion
Apr 19, 15 4:49 pm
thanks...arch, totally forgot about that catalog...maybe Grainger as well...
awaiting_deletion
Apr 19, 15 4:55 pm
the to truss per floor proposal...i actually like that one more. maybe you could do suspended truss floors like Foster's Hong Kong Bank? eliminate all columns and beams and basically via megastructures and space frame diaphragms....you are in school.
Boukhouidem
Apr 19, 15 5:10 pm
Thanks Miles Jaffe for the clarification , i found these giant roller bearings manufacturer by liebherr :
Okay Olaf , i'll do this as soon as i can and i'll re-post here , btw i can also use transfer beams to perfectly adjust my grids on my needs. i found a similar project to mine it's : Kieran Timberlake's UNCC Center City Building and i also have a revit file of it , but unfortunately i can't say i get what type of structure is used. maybe you can take a look :
Olaf how can i use airplane cables in the structure ?
awaiting_deletion
Apr 19, 15 5:32 pm
see my comment about Foster's Hong Kong Bank. If I remember correctly up to 12 floors at a time are suspended from mega trusses. so lets say the walls are mega trusses and they are all suspended from steel in tension (aircraft cables, i think i am saying that right). this means though you may end up with what look like towers sticking up thru building...think bridges, which was brought up earlier
Hello everyone ,
I'm Aymen , a 3rd year architecture student , and i'm working currently on a project , it's a pavilion for Aeronautics , well i had the idea to make the floors rotating but as soon as i started working on the structure i found a lot of troubles , i think i should go for steel construction but is it possible to do with this kind of structure ? i mean the 1st floor rotate with 8 degrees and the 2nd floor also rotate with 8 degrees ( which mean 16 degrees to the ground floor ) , so the whole traditional concept of steel or concrete structure is lost , it's really hard and i need your help , this is my designing concept till now of course i would love to hear your ideas :D
it's actually a very simple structure, if you had one, and I don't understand why the columns have to have anything to do with the slightly skewed floor plates.
.... you're modeling presumably is in Revit and then rendering in 3dsMax in Mental Ray with the typical Physical Sky background......come on let's put some effort into this, I could do that in 2 hours....
The floors have only slab thickness as you've modeled it. You are going to need transfer beams if the column grids orientate themselves to the floor plate orientation....which is not efficient.
so if you can do a very simple internal grid for all things within the box of the envelope, i am sure from the birds eye view you can get a few orthogonal orientated columsn.
then do cantileveers and transfer beams as required for various lengths beyond the column grid.
for small variation off the orthogonal grid, you can simply extend the steel reinforced concrete.
Thanks for your reply ,
i did this rendering just to explain my idea , of course i'll do more efforts in it :D
Now as for the structure , it will be a mixed construction , ill do the main part ( with the rotating floors ) in steel , and the other parts of the building with simple concrete structure.
So your idea consist on decomposing the load on multiple grids , and those grids will eventually hold the extended parts of the rotating floors. now i have two questions , 1* the columns you posted in the first pic seem to be in full concrete , don't you think that making IPN600 columns ( steel ) will be more helpful ?
2* the columns in the ground floor will appear in some unfavorable places in the 2nd floor since it rotate and the same in 3rd floor , so my question , how can i resolve this problem ? can i change the position of steel column from floor to floor since the whole structure is connected with the beams grids ?
Thanks :)
Ok. There are some real rotating buildings in the real world. So I will suspend disbelief for a minute. The main structural issue is that you have a large floor plate that you want to rotate - which means very long cantilevers off a central axis - which means a very deep structure. I think you need to look at how rotating bridges are built-a very deep truss- and compare what they look like vs your structure.
Or do mean- rotated - but not able to rotate?
If it's a static building then what Olaf said.
8-degree rotation is so last year. 11-degree is where it's at now.
Thanks a lot Gruen ,
i'll research more on how these bridges are built. the floors are rotated with 8 degrees each time , but the structure isn't dynamic , it's static .. maybe i'll go for a dynamic architecture ! David fisher's skyscraper in Dubai is one of the finest examples to get inspiration of , but still i need to deal with this structure before going to the next step. the main trouble is how to deal with all the columns that appears in the rotated floors in some random places , because in the ground floor the column follow the grid but this grid is kind of lost in the second floor because the whole floor is rotated with 8 degrees , and in the 3rd floor it shall be 16 degrees so how to deal with this problem ?
Thanks Non Sequitur ,
So do you mean i should rotate the floor with 11 degree ? can you tell me why please :D
Because eleven gives you that extra push to take it over the cliff!
http://youtu.be/KOO5S4vxi0o
And Eleven it shall be ^_^
bouk my main point is "transfer" beams....steel or concrete whatever......put the columns on each floor in the favorable positions. see if any line up or small adjustments make lining up possible. then with simple math figure disproportions of assumed loads. by the time you get to the first floor you may have beams that are deeper tham 6 feet (2m) or something and columns to match.
Use a consistent column grid that falls inside a common footprint along all floorplates. And you'll probably want to add either much deeper structure, or a full-floor-height truss along the edge of the building, which is always a nice expression.
Thanks Olaf Design Ninja , i'll try to make the structure using Robot or Advance steel.
Thank you archanonymous , can you provide me with an example of a full floor height truss please ?
gruen, for a large dynamic rotation you could model the system on a series of stacked lazy Susans.
+++non sequitur
12 degree and above is considered "avant garde"
i wouldn't get into full structural modeling yet, but you may learn what i am proposing this way.......model it as per design and then visually find a situation that appears to have the max loads....for instance one column may go 2-3 floors and land halfway between two columns at ground floor. i would figure the loads on this column and get a feel foe the size of this beam before i did everything.....you may switch back to 8 degrees instead of 11 after doing this..
Hey Miles Jaffe , what do you mean by Susans ?
Rotating plates, like a giant flat ball bearing.
miles speaking of bearing plates and bearing balls etc.......home depot carry that? or should i go car parts store....trying to think of names for parts like that or from what in home depot i could rip the part out of.....
One
Two
Three
Four
Five
If you use columns, your trusses should run in both directions, as in the last example. If you can use two parallel full-height shear walls at the far ends of the buil, it is reasonable to show the trusses only running on two faces of the building.
bouk when you are done we'd love to see the development.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_bridge
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/20/rotating-solar-house-generates-five-times-the-energy-it-consumes/
Olaf, try Mcmaster-carr. HD usually has the shittiest stuff... worth the premium mcmaster charges to get good parts.
Another vote for McMaster-Carr. Overnight delivery from an incredibly deep catalog, mostly US made.
Miles, is right on to something. Of course these individual plates need to be engineered in large scale. However, you'll need a core to rotate the structure on. If I had a choice, I would also have a curved 'track' wall that supports the structure. Whether you have 360 degree rotation or say an arc. Realistically, you probably may consider rotation track where you can track solar arc during a chosen peak period.
It is very expensive and hard to maintain not to mention the motors required to drive the movement. I would use steel and wood for the floor 'plates' and reinforced concrete mass piers.
thanks...arch, totally forgot about that catalog...maybe Grainger as well...
the to truss per floor proposal...i actually like that one more. maybe you could do suspended truss floors like Foster's Hong Kong Bank? eliminate all columns and beams and basically via megastructures and space frame diaphragms....you are in school.
Thanks Miles Jaffe for the clarification , i found these giant roller bearings manufacturer by liebherr :
http://www.liebherr.com/CP/en-GB/products_cp.wfw/id-2084-0
Okay Olaf , i'll do this as soon as i can and i'll re-post here , btw i can also use transfer beams to perfectly adjust my grids on my needs.
i found a similar project to mine it's : Kieran Timberlake's UNCC Center City Building and i also have a revit file of it , but unfortunately i can't say i get what type of structure is used. maybe you can take a look :
http:// https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GthV9nk5S8MjNxWk9rTEdHOEU/view?usp=sharing
gruen , what if i do something like this REX project where each rotated volume is framed independently. ?
archanonymous i must say i didn't get it very well :( , '' your trusses should run in both directions'' how's that ?
since it is an aeronautics building "airplane cables" for tension would be in theme here as well.
Richard Balkins, Assoc. AIA so in order to achieve a dynamic building i need to core to rotate the building on ( even if the floors are static i might need a core like '' The Shift '' Dubai ). and rolling bears ( already found them http://www.liebherr.com/CP/en-GB/products_cp.wfw/id-2084-0 ) . what else ? :D
Olaf how can i use airplane cables in the structure ?
see my comment about Foster's Hong Kong Bank. If I remember correctly up to 12 floors at a time are suspended from mega trusses. so lets say the walls are mega trusses and they are all suspended from steel in tension (aircraft cables, i think i am saying that right). this means though you may end up with what look like towers sticking up thru building...think bridges, which was brought up earlier
Just stack up a couple of these.
No need to shout.
why is there so much BOLD? jinx @Miles