I was just wondering since I haven't had any work experience yet, does anyone know what some general expectations are for a new grad?
For example, what would they be asked to during a day? What are their expected capabilities? Knowledge they should know?
I mainly want to know just where I stand and things I could improve/work towards.
zonker
Jan 22, 15 5:44 pm
Be able to remember what you are told, thoroughness, speed and accuracy
failure to perform will result in you getting fired
null pointer
Jan 22, 15 5:49 pm
Remember, extrapolate, draw right (ie, you use the "near" snaps and I will have your head).
DTL DWG
Jan 22, 15 6:21 pm
Stay late to catch-up and show up early to be prepared
Volunteer
Jan 22, 15 7:03 pm
If they wanted a yes man they could have gotten a cardboard cutout. You should give your honest opinion on an issue when asked. Either say something positive about your coworkers or say nothing. The value of keeping your mouth closed in the early days cannot be overestimated. However, you do owe the company your honest opinion when asked.
chigurh
Jan 22, 15 7:03 pm
Xenakis is a dick, don't listen to that guy, he is just the product of getting fucked by the recession, it permeates his whole persona...
I agree with chi-gmp, just come in with a good attitude, do what you are told, try to learn as much as possible and ask questions...tons of questions till you understand what it is that you are doing.
zonker
Jan 22, 15 7:26 pm
3 more years to the next recession chigurh - are you prepared? better start saving
Carrera
Jan 22, 15 7:58 pm
Its okay to come in and suck in all you can, of course, but stand to be ready to do anything you are asked... even if you initially don't know exactly what to do, grab all opportunities and figure it out.... if you want to get somewhere grab things and hit "go". Xenakis is a seasoned resource, listen to him.... reality is reality.
chigurh
Jan 22, 15 9:30 pm
xenakis, the universe has a strange way of returning the energy you put out into the world. If you are the naysaying freak always worried about getting laid off, when the next recession hits, chances are, you will be first on the chopping block. Funny how things just work out that way. I feel sorry for your coworkers, I can only imagine what a pleasant addition you are to the workplace.
Carrera
Jan 22, 15 9:54 pm
Chigurh....think Xenakis speaks to the common man.... the average "Joe" in most offices... his call to watch out for oneself is well served..... had a lot of average "Joe's" work for me over the years and the recessions always got them.
zonker
Jan 22, 15 10:15 pm
sad but true - it's best to move beyond being the average Joe -
xenakis, the universe has a strange way of returning the energy you put out into the world. If you are the naysaying freak always worried about getting laid off, when the next recession hits, chances are, you will be first on the chopping block. Funny how things just work out that way. I feel sorry for your coworkers, I can only imagine what a pleasant addition you are to the workplace.
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Miles Jaffe
Jan 22, 15 10:16 pm
3 more years to the next recession
That's highly optimistic, in more ways than one.
chigurh
Jan 22, 15 10:21 pm
xenakis is the average joe with a bad attitude to boot.
look at that bullshit above.
zonker
Jan 22, 15 10:25 pm
chigurh - go get a box - you're fired
zonker
Jan 22, 15 11:08 pm
sooner or later, you will be working for a chigurh like I am now. Seems like everything I do is wrong. Maybe in my next life I will be an architect - I sure missed the boat this time.
curtkram
Jan 22, 15 11:13 pm
i wonder if he worked free overtime to type all that out and show how hard of a worker he is, or just copy/paste?
the boss would probably like him better if he typed it all out.
Carrera
Jan 22, 15 11:46 pm
Feel bad for "the average Joe".... just hanging it out there waiting for the axe to fall.... feared the axe when young and saw only one way out... if you own the firm, regardless how small, you'll be the last guy out the door when the axe falls. Not everybody can own but "X" has pointed out many ways to survive.... people with practical experience about anything should be listened to.
bowling_ball
Jan 23, 15 12:22 am
Don't listen to Xenakis, he's just bitter at being a 60 year old who has to do what his 30 year old bosses tell him to do. If you want to follow those footsteps, nobody's stopping you.
Better advice: Be respectful and ambitious. Listen. Try to figure things out on your own, but ask questions when get stumped. Never pass up the chance to have a drink with your boss. Don't work too much overtime. Don't get too good at any one thing, or that's all you'll ever do. Architects are generalists, remember.... Good luck. There will be ups and downs but not everybody hates their job.
zonker
Jan 23, 15 12:22 am
You really need to listen and get what the architects are telling you the first time - if they have to tell a second time - then you are headed down the path to unemployment when things get slow. Average Joe's can "survive" I was laid off 4 times in 2014 - and this is in boom times here in SF. Knowing Revit and knowing it well is great - but you also need to have right image and personality - sadly I have neither.
BulgarBlogger
Jan 23, 15 12:23 am
3 more years to the next recession
That's highly optimistic, in more ways than one.
You know it does make sense that things slow down for architects every few years.... economically-speaking developers need time to get back what they invested in... banks need time to re-charge their vaults after lending massively to people during the good times. Cycles of positive and negative cashflow are a natural product of basic economics under capitalism.
It's unfortunate that architects are at the forefront of this. Financiers would tell their clients to diversify their portfolios so that if something bad goes down with one stock, hopefully the dividents from the others would recoup the losses. The architectural profession is not set up in a way that allows for diversification. Sure- an architect can go down other paths, but it is at the expense of getting back into the field at a later point in time that is a problem. Seeing a gap of 3-4 years on an architectural resume looks pretty shitty... you almost have to get re-trained from scratch.
zonker
Jan 23, 15 12:48 am
also avoid jaded people like bowling_ball - they will just discourage you
I actually like working for 30 year olds, they are encouraging and not jaded like bowling_ball
zonker
Jan 23, 15 12:53 am
also if you do screw up - it will color others perceptions of you no matter how good you may do afterwards. "perception is 90% reality" manage others perceptions of you by doing what it takes.
bowling_ball
Jan 23, 15 7:21 am
Me, jaded? What gives you that impression? I love my job. I look forward to going to work. I'm learning every day, and I work with people I really like. My salary has gone up 50% in the last 18 months. The last line of my first post says "not everybody hates their job."
Giving advice like 'don't screw up' isn't helpful. A new grad woildn't know if they were screwing up anyway. And nobody tries to make mistakes - and they happen - but what's more telling is how you deal with those mistakes.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 23, 15 7:41 am
Xenakis you either really suck at what you do or smoke too much pot, I can't figure it out. Is the paranoia real or do you deserve it?...................the Architects who realize mistakes happen and have little to no consequence to daily activity of practice are the successful ones. So if your find yourself working for a neurotic perfectionist who doesn't know that in a matter of 2 sentences on the phone or in person the mistake can be fixed and become a thing of the past socially - run.
null pointer
Jan 23, 15 8:36 am
Olaf, right on on point about the mistakes thing. As usual.
I do understand what Xenakis is getting at. You do have to take him at arm's length. From what I've read of him throughout the years, he basically got burned by pigeonholing himself and still hasn't been able to escape that. He was actually a pretty good cautionary tale, and I may have made a few "even worse" mistakes had I not listened to him i the past.
I am actually in a similar situation (being an extreme specialist in things related to particular part of the field), but I spend every waking moment reaching out elsewhere. I earned my stripes - there are probably 5 people in the city with my qualifications and I'm definitely the youngest - so now I voice my opinions about everything in our office. It makes me seem like a dick sometimes, but keeping your opinions coherent and being into architecture for something more than yourself (while also being aware of the money side of things) is what makes architecture so.. well.. fucking amazing.
So my entry-level tips:
Aim to remember. You've got an edge over everyone past their 30's. Make connections, or make sure people explain them to you. Keep an excel spreadsheet with all the code esoterica (dead end distances, FAR, occupancy classifications, etc.) so that you can confirm things before you bark them out over the phone.
Ask questions, but don't make your questions so broad that they challenge people's points of view. A lot of people aren't equipped with capacity to alter long-held opinions - and they will react violently if you lead them to without their consent.
Bite off as much as you can chew and a little more.
If you have a question: Google it before you ask. Get amazing at Google. If a term is thrown out and you don't know the meaning, Google it. If a client's name is mentioned: Google him. Can't do something in CAD? Google it.
Surround yourself in books. Screw most of theory - If you're going to a planning office: Read Jacobs, read Glaeser, read Katz. If you're going to be doing details: Devour graphics standards, and make yourself friends with Ching. Small practice? Get the professional practice manual and read an article a week. Computation? - Carpo, and Terzidis.
Finally, be nice and be personable. I fucked up on this one in my current job. I wasn't as nice as I should have been, and even though I've tried to fix this, it's hard once you've been there for a while.
Carrera
Jan 23, 15 10:38 am
Definitely on the "nice & personable".... can be the smartest guy in the room but if you are a prick.... had a guy like that, never laid him off but fired him my head almost every day.
SneakyPete
Jan 23, 15 11:30 am
Oops. Wrong reply.
toasteroven
Jan 23, 15 11:50 am
The people I dislike the most are the backstabbing assholes who have spent years insulating themselves so it gets more and more difficult to fire them. They like to find weak bosses and prey on their good will - they will turn on you if money starts getting tight, even if you initially got in good with them. They're usually low level project managers or job captains (since no owner in their right mind would ever let them get too high up) - so the quicker you can advance past them, the better. that or get the hell out of that poisonous environment (especially if they're in charge of IT).
key is to find people who are willing to help you out and you help them out in return. These relationships are going to be very important the further along you get in your career - because it'll get much harder switching jobs (or starting your own firm) without a strong network of people who have worked with you and have liked working with you.
Carrera
Jan 23, 15 12:03 pm
Toast….I came up with a name for those kind of guys – “Exempt Employees”….had two who latched on to my two partners and no matter how disruptive or at times unproductive I could never get rid of them….was very corrosive to the business….blamed the partners for that.
curtkram
Jan 23, 15 12:32 pm
how about a little love for the IT guy?
as the sort of person that helps with that kind of thing, the way i see it is that i worked hard to learn a skillset that's valuable to you, and that helps you be productive.
sure, i could have spent my time fucking around watching daytime TV, but instead i have a natural curiosity and drive to do better, so i found a place where i could work hard and do better and make your office a little more efficient.
if i were one of your 'exempt employees,' in return you would pretend to fire me while your screwing around not learning this stuff? in return for me helping you be successful, productive, and profitable, you're going to see to it that i can't be successful? i need help too. i need help to get exposure and experience that helps be learn how to be a better architect.
it's your office. if it's toxic, it's probably because you're a shitty leader, because you're pretending to fire the people you depend on and building resentment by doing so. you created it. if you tried supporting your staff instead of demeaning them, i really don't think it would be toxic.
having said that, i really don't think i've ever stabbed anyone in the back. i also don't think i've tried to tear anyone down to get ahead of them, which it kind of sounds like what toaster might be implying. i value hard work and integrity in myself (which is of course different than expecting everyone else to have integrity while you make false promises), which are both pretty rare. i'm probably not always a nice person, but then i'm probably in the sort of environment you create carrera, where it really doesn't matter how hard i work or how good of a job i do, because you just want to fire me anyway.
seriously. with people like you in charge, it should be obvious why places like toaster is talking about turn toxic.
Carrera
Jan 23, 15 1:08 pm
I think the biggest mistake in some offices is people thinking they are working for “somebody”. It’s better that everyone believes that they are all working for the “company” in unison…working for an entity or an idea. When a partner latches on to an individual for pet projects that may be a big growth opportunity to the employee but they end up being “exempt” and is unfair to others and to the whole. I agree that its mostly leaders making the workplace toxic….my two partners created the problem in my case, I don’t think my attempt to identify the problem and untangle the mess makes me guilty.
toasteroven
Jan 23, 15 1:09 pm
IT guys are fine as long as they aren't also arch staff. IMO - it's really dangerous to put someone in charge of monitoring coworkers computer activities / software needs if they are competing with them for career advancement. You need an impartial 3rd party. That's not to say that some arch staff can't be in charge of tech advancement, but stuff like e-mail, internet use, and especially anything to do with money, you want someone who isn't arch staff.
SneakyPete
Jan 23, 15 1:47 pm
Petty backstabbers are individual people, not a type of staff role. There are no more petty backstabbers in IT than in design, and they're equally toxic.
I was just wondering since I haven't had any work experience yet, does anyone know what some general expectations are for a new grad?
For example, what would they be asked to during a day? What are their expected capabilities? Knowledge they should know?
I mainly want to know just where I stand and things I could improve/work towards.
Be able to remember what you are told, thoroughness, speed and accuracy
failure to perform will result in you getting fired
Remember, extrapolate, draw right (ie, you use the "near" snaps and I will have your head).
Stay late to catch-up and show up early to be prepared
If they wanted a yes man they could have gotten a cardboard cutout. You should give your honest opinion on an issue when asked. Either say something positive about your coworkers or say nothing. The value of keeping your mouth closed in the early days cannot be overestimated. However, you do owe the company your honest opinion when asked.
Xenakis is a dick, don't listen to that guy, he is just the product of getting fucked by the recession, it permeates his whole persona...
I agree with chi-gmp, just come in with a good attitude, do what you are told, try to learn as much as possible and ask questions...tons of questions till you understand what it is that you are doing.
3 more years to the next recession chigurh - are you prepared? better start saving
Its okay to come in and suck in all you can, of course, but stand to be ready to do anything you are asked... even if you initially don't know exactly what to do, grab all opportunities and figure it out.... if you want to get somewhere grab things and hit "go". Xenakis is a seasoned resource, listen to him.... reality is reality.
xenakis, the universe has a strange way of returning the energy you put out into the world. If you are the naysaying freak always worried about getting laid off, when the next recession hits, chances are, you will be first on the chopping block. Funny how things just work out that way. I feel sorry for your coworkers, I can only imagine what a pleasant addition you are to the workplace.
Chigurh....think Xenakis speaks to the common man.... the average "Joe" in most offices... his call to watch out for oneself is well served..... had a lot of average "Joe's" work for me over the years and the recessions always got them.
sad but true - it's best to move beyond being the average Joe -
xenakis, the universe has a strange way of returning the energy you put out into the world. If you are the naysaying freak always worried about getting laid off, when the next recession hits, chances are, you will be first on the chopping block. Funny how things just work out that way. I feel sorry for your coworkers, I can only imagine what a pleasant addition you are to the workplace.
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3 more years to the next recession
That's highly optimistic, in more ways than one.
xenakis is the average joe with a bad attitude to boot.
look at that bullshit above.
chigurh - go get a box - you're fired
sooner or later, you will be working for a chigurh like I am now. Seems like everything I do is wrong. Maybe in my next life I will be an architect - I sure missed the boat this time.
i wonder if he worked free overtime to type all that out and show how hard of a worker he is, or just copy/paste?
the boss would probably like him better if he typed it all out.
Feel bad for "the average Joe".... just hanging it out there waiting for the axe to fall.... feared the axe when young and saw only one way out... if you own the firm, regardless how small, you'll be the last guy out the door when the axe falls. Not everybody can own but "X" has pointed out many ways to survive.... people with practical experience about anything should be listened to.
Don't listen to Xenakis, he's just bitter at being a 60 year old who has to do what his 30 year old bosses tell him to do. If you want to follow those footsteps, nobody's stopping you.
Better advice: Be respectful and ambitious. Listen. Try to figure things out on your own, but ask questions when get stumped. Never pass up the chance to have a drink with your boss. Don't work too much overtime. Don't get too good at any one thing, or that's all you'll ever do. Architects are generalists, remember.... Good luck. There will be ups and downs but not everybody hates their job.
You really need to listen and get what the architects are telling you the first time - if they have to tell a second time - then you are headed down the path to unemployment when things get slow. Average Joe's can "survive" I was laid off 4 times in 2014 - and this is in boom times here in SF. Knowing Revit and knowing it well is great - but you also need to have right image and personality - sadly I have neither.
3 more years to the next recession
That's highly optimistic, in more ways than one.
You know it does make sense that things slow down for architects every few years.... economically-speaking developers need time to get back what they invested in... banks need time to re-charge their vaults after lending massively to people during the good times. Cycles of positive and negative cashflow are a natural product of basic economics under capitalism.
It's unfortunate that architects are at the forefront of this. Financiers would tell their clients to diversify their portfolios so that if something bad goes down with one stock, hopefully the dividents from the others would recoup the losses. The architectural profession is not set up in a way that allows for diversification. Sure- an architect can go down other paths, but it is at the expense of getting back into the field at a later point in time that is a problem. Seeing a gap of 3-4 years on an architectural resume looks pretty shitty... you almost have to get re-trained from scratch.
also avoid jaded people like bowling_ball - they will just discourage you
I actually like working for 30 year olds, they are encouraging and not jaded like bowling_ball
also if you do screw up - it will color others perceptions of you no matter how good you may do afterwards. "perception is 90% reality" manage others perceptions of you by doing what it takes.
Me, jaded? What gives you that impression? I love my job. I look forward to going to work. I'm learning every day, and I work with people I really like. My salary has gone up 50% in the last 18 months. The last line of my first post says "not everybody hates their job."
Giving advice like 'don't screw up' isn't helpful. A new grad woildn't know if they were screwing up anyway. And nobody tries to make mistakes - and they happen - but what's more telling is how you deal with those mistakes.
Xenakis you either really suck at what you do or smoke too much pot, I can't figure it out. Is the paranoia real or do you deserve it?...................the Architects who realize mistakes happen and have little to no consequence to daily activity of practice are the successful ones. So if your find yourself working for a neurotic perfectionist who doesn't know that in a matter of 2 sentences on the phone or in person the mistake can be fixed and become a thing of the past socially - run.
Olaf, right on on point about the mistakes thing. As usual.
I do understand what Xenakis is getting at. You do have to take him at arm's length. From what I've read of him throughout the years, he basically got burned by pigeonholing himself and still hasn't been able to escape that. He was actually a pretty good cautionary tale, and I may have made a few "even worse" mistakes had I not listened to him i the past.
I am actually in a similar situation (being an extreme specialist in things related to particular part of the field), but I spend every waking moment reaching out elsewhere. I earned my stripes - there are probably 5 people in the city with my qualifications and I'm definitely the youngest - so now I voice my opinions about everything in our office. It makes me seem like a dick sometimes, but keeping your opinions coherent and being into architecture for something more than yourself (while also being aware of the money side of things) is what makes architecture so.. well.. fucking amazing.
So my entry-level tips:
Aim to remember. You've got an edge over everyone past their 30's. Make connections, or make sure people explain them to you. Keep an excel spreadsheet with all the code esoterica (dead end distances, FAR, occupancy classifications, etc.) so that you can confirm things before you bark them out over the phone.
Ask questions, but don't make your questions so broad that they challenge people's points of view. A lot of people aren't equipped with capacity to alter long-held opinions - and they will react violently if you lead them to without their consent.
Bite off as much as you can chew and a little more.
If you have a question: Google it before you ask. Get amazing at Google. If a term is thrown out and you don't know the meaning, Google it. If a client's name is mentioned: Google him. Can't do something in CAD? Google it.
Surround yourself in books. Screw most of theory - If you're going to a planning office: Read Jacobs, read Glaeser, read Katz. If you're going to be doing details: Devour graphics standards, and make yourself friends with Ching. Small practice? Get the professional practice manual and read an article a week. Computation? - Carpo, and Terzidis.
Finally, be nice and be personable. I fucked up on this one in my current job. I wasn't as nice as I should have been, and even though I've tried to fix this, it's hard once you've been there for a while.
Definitely on the "nice & personable".... can be the smartest guy in the room but if you are a prick.... had a guy like that, never laid him off but fired him my head almost every day.
Oops. Wrong reply.
The people I dislike the most are the backstabbing assholes who have spent years insulating themselves so it gets more and more difficult to fire them. They like to find weak bosses and prey on their good will - they will turn on you if money starts getting tight, even if you initially got in good with them. They're usually low level project managers or job captains (since no owner in their right mind would ever let them get too high up) - so the quicker you can advance past them, the better. that or get the hell out of that poisonous environment (especially if they're in charge of IT).
key is to find people who are willing to help you out and you help them out in return. These relationships are going to be very important the further along you get in your career - because it'll get much harder switching jobs (or starting your own firm) without a strong network of people who have worked with you and have liked working with you.
Toast….I came up with a name for those kind of guys – “Exempt Employees”….had two who latched on to my two partners and no matter how disruptive or at times unproductive I could never get rid of them….was very corrosive to the business….blamed the partners for that.
how about a little love for the IT guy?
as the sort of person that helps with that kind of thing, the way i see it is that i worked hard to learn a skillset that's valuable to you, and that helps you be productive.
sure, i could have spent my time fucking around watching daytime TV, but instead i have a natural curiosity and drive to do better, so i found a place where i could work hard and do better and make your office a little more efficient.
if i were one of your 'exempt employees,' in return you would pretend to fire me while your screwing around not learning this stuff? in return for me helping you be successful, productive, and profitable, you're going to see to it that i can't be successful? i need help too. i need help to get exposure and experience that helps be learn how to be a better architect.
it's your office. if it's toxic, it's probably because you're a shitty leader, because you're pretending to fire the people you depend on and building resentment by doing so. you created it. if you tried supporting your staff instead of demeaning them, i really don't think it would be toxic.
having said that, i really don't think i've ever stabbed anyone in the back. i also don't think i've tried to tear anyone down to get ahead of them, which it kind of sounds like what toaster might be implying. i value hard work and integrity in myself (which is of course different than expecting everyone else to have integrity while you make false promises), which are both pretty rare. i'm probably not always a nice person, but then i'm probably in the sort of environment you create carrera, where it really doesn't matter how hard i work or how good of a job i do, because you just want to fire me anyway.
seriously. with people like you in charge, it should be obvious why places like toaster is talking about turn toxic.
I think the biggest mistake in some offices is people thinking they are working for “somebody”. It’s better that everyone believes that they are all working for the “company” in unison…working for an entity or an idea. When a partner latches on to an individual for pet projects that may be a big growth opportunity to the employee but they end up being “exempt” and is unfair to others and to the whole. I agree that its mostly leaders making the workplace toxic….my two partners created the problem in my case, I don’t think my attempt to identify the problem and untangle the mess makes me guilty.
IT guys are fine as long as they aren't also arch staff. IMO - it's really dangerous to put someone in charge of monitoring coworkers computer activities / software needs if they are competing with them for career advancement. You need an impartial 3rd party. That's not to say that some arch staff can't be in charge of tech advancement, but stuff like e-mail, internet use, and especially anything to do with money, you want someone who isn't arch staff.
Petty backstabbers are individual people, not a type of staff role. There are no more petty backstabbers in IT than in design, and they're equally toxic.