I'm in California where they always do things different, such as allow the Architect to sign off on structural, mech, and elec sheets as long as they are the person perfoming the work and are competent. Despite this I dont see too many Architects doing this work, with the exception of a few. For you Architects out there, Im curious to know how many you provide engineering services? If you dont explain why?
Non Sequitur
Jan 22, 15 8:16 am
None from me but I do enough baby-sitting of the engineers as it is, sometimes I feel like I'm the one doing their work.
DTL DWG
Jan 22, 15 8:37 am
I do. In nyc an architects stamp is as good as an engineers. I do try to avoid electrical beyond load calcs, it's a funny math...and if needed hire an engineer of the trade for a quick peer review. (Don't touch sprinkler or fire alarm either).
DTL DWG
Jan 22, 15 9:10 am
The electrician files their work anyway, fire alarm vendors take care of their stuff,and sprinkler, although easy to size and place heads based on rules of thumb, given the life safety involved best to leave to engineers.
poop876
Jan 22, 15 3:46 pm
I do too! I make sure when I do a proposal I note that we can do MEP's for permitting only based on a design-built relationship for one fee and a different fee for MEP's done by engineers. Typically they go with us since the fee is lower and they figure out stuff in the field. Also when signing contract I note that it is assumed thing will be figured out in the field and that I'm not an engineer and that my work is for permit purposes only just in case shit doesn't work out.
Actually I'm having a client now coming back saying the RTU's they are using is not correctly balanced and the contractor is saying that he did everything according to the drawings, so the client tried to blame it on us, but we just back tracked our correspondence stating the above and specifically he said in one of the emails he will go with the lower fee and had us do HVAC design.
mightyaa
Jan 22, 15 3:51 pm
Depends how you look at it. In residential here, I can stamp the whole thing and they can design/build the MEP with the right contractor license. So I'll show outlets, gfi's, lights, and the switching. I'll show the mechanical room, and register layout and fill out the energy compliance forms. I'll show all the plumbing fixtures and have done the isometric before too. That is often enough for the contractor to have his electrician and mechanical sub pull a permit. But I wouldn't call them engineered designs at all. The contractor has to have the right license and a engineer's stamp isn't required.
Used to be able to do that with the structure too. I'm more than capable of designing and sizing everything particularly with the geotech report... but they require a structural engineering stamp now on it all as well.
And to great annoyance to me who actually testifies in court about this; My local building department requires a mechanical engineer stamp on foundation drains and crawlspace ventilation when a fan or pump is used.
tlee55
Jan 22, 15 7:17 pm
Thank You all for your insight! I'm currently working for a design/build firm as their designer (non-licensed). We've typically worked on residential stuff, but are now getting a lot tenant improvements. The kind of stuff that ranges between 35k and 80k. Small stuff, but since it's commercial we have to get sign offs for permitting (in house contractors/subs). Either way as we grow and get into larger commercial jobs we are considering sending the design to either an Architect or a MEP engineer (s). The salesmen don't like that idea because it eats at their profit. But with me doing the design, I'm starting to find that the larger the job, the more work it is required on the construction documents to get a permit(double the drafting and code research). So I've suggested to upper management about finding an Architect that can do this.
Either way, your input gives me a better idea about how to go about this whole process.
Saint in the City
Jan 22, 15 8:02 pm
^ So, what exactly are you wanting an architect to do?
tlee55
Jan 22, 15 8:13 pm
Saint - Sorry if I wasn't clear, but basically our firm isn't the greatest at the design part of the design/build portion of the firm. We can do simple design but as the jobs get larger they become more complicated for my in house contractors to design, so I'm trying to figure out if an Architect would be the way to go. We've considered MEP, but the more engineers that are involved the more the design will cost. I thought an Architect that does all this would be more economical, but I wanted to get a better feel for this on Archinect prior to actually seeking one in the real world. Hope this clarifies it.
DTL DWG
Jan 22, 15 9:38 pm
tlee55 - the answer is architect given your work. the MEP is within most practicing architect skill sets. (7-10 years probably)
more importantly the architect will think about how to build it and keep the integration of all MEP parts in line with design.
zonker
Jan 26, 15 5:31 pm
I have been doing structural plans, elevations, section and details for a major structural firm - mostly seismic retrofit work in SF - lots of bone transplants in old 120 year old Victorians.
I'm in California where they always do things different, such as allow the Architect to sign off on structural, mech, and elec sheets as long as they are the person perfoming the work and are competent. Despite this I dont see too many Architects doing this work, with the exception of a few. For you Architects out there, Im curious to know how many you provide engineering services? If you dont explain why?
None from me but I do enough baby-sitting of the engineers as it is, sometimes I feel like I'm the one doing their work.
I do. In nyc an architects stamp is as good as an engineers. I do try to avoid electrical beyond load calcs, it's a funny math...and if needed hire an engineer of the trade for a quick peer review. (Don't touch sprinkler or fire alarm either).
The electrician files their work anyway, fire alarm vendors take care of their stuff,and sprinkler, although easy to size and place heads based on rules of thumb, given the life safety involved best to leave to engineers.
I do too! I make sure when I do a proposal I note that we can do MEP's for permitting only based on a design-built relationship for one fee and a different fee for MEP's done by engineers. Typically they go with us since the fee is lower and they figure out stuff in the field. Also when signing contract I note that it is assumed thing will be figured out in the field and that I'm not an engineer and that my work is for permit purposes only just in case shit doesn't work out.
Actually I'm having a client now coming back saying the RTU's they are using is not correctly balanced and the contractor is saying that he did everything according to the drawings, so the client tried to blame it on us, but we just back tracked our correspondence stating the above and specifically he said in one of the emails he will go with the lower fee and had us do HVAC design.
Depends how you look at it. In residential here, I can stamp the whole thing and they can design/build the MEP with the right contractor license. So I'll show outlets, gfi's, lights, and the switching. I'll show the mechanical room, and register layout and fill out the energy compliance forms. I'll show all the plumbing fixtures and have done the isometric before too. That is often enough for the contractor to have his electrician and mechanical sub pull a permit. But I wouldn't call them engineered designs at all. The contractor has to have the right license and a engineer's stamp isn't required.
Used to be able to do that with the structure too. I'm more than capable of designing and sizing everything particularly with the geotech report... but they require a structural engineering stamp now on it all as well.
And to great annoyance to me who actually testifies in court about this; My local building department requires a mechanical engineer stamp on foundation drains and crawlspace ventilation when a fan or pump is used.
Thank You all for your insight! I'm currently working for a design/build firm as their designer (non-licensed). We've typically worked on residential stuff, but are now getting a lot tenant improvements. The kind of stuff that ranges between 35k and 80k. Small stuff, but since it's commercial we have to get sign offs for permitting (in house contractors/subs). Either way as we grow and get into larger commercial jobs we are considering sending the design to either an Architect or a MEP engineer (s). The salesmen don't like that idea because it eats at their profit. But with me doing the design, I'm starting to find that the larger the job, the more work it is required on the construction documents to get a permit(double the drafting and code research). So I've suggested to upper management about finding an Architect that can do this.
Either way, your input gives me a better idea about how to go about this whole process.
^ So, what exactly are you wanting an architect to do?
Saint - Sorry if I wasn't clear, but basically our firm isn't the greatest at the design part of the design/build portion of the firm. We can do simple design but as the jobs get larger they become more complicated for my in house contractors to design, so I'm trying to figure out if an Architect would be the way to go. We've considered MEP, but the more engineers that are involved the more the design will cost. I thought an Architect that does all this would be more economical, but I wanted to get a better feel for this on Archinect prior to actually seeking one in the real world. Hope this clarifies it.
tlee55 - the answer is architect given your work. the MEP is within most practicing architect skill sets. (7-10 years probably)
more importantly the architect will think about how to build it and keep the integration of all MEP parts in line with design.
I have been doing structural plans, elevations, section and details for a major structural firm - mostly seismic retrofit work in SF - lots of bone transplants in old 120 year old Victorians.