We are a small, fledgling business in a very tight knit community.
For the past two years we have been working on developing a relationship witha local architect. In the meantime, I've personally befriended one of the project managers.
This particular architect is notorious for disregarding the site/landscape. They began working with our small shop because we offered illustration. We have since evolved our business and are now focused on offering our graphics services only for our own design work. At the time we started working with them, they alluded to the idea of evolving our relationship, understanding that we wanted to get away from rendering-only work.
Our first project with them, two years ago, was on a large, contemporary residence. We completed several rounds of renderings, they were happy. As we completed second and third rounds of renderings we began asking more about the design of the site. For months we rendered the architecture, simply placing the building in a shrubby meadow and calling it good. As landscape architects, this was torture.
As time went on we respectfully asked to 'take a crack' at the site. Then we got frustrated when the architect asked us to plop I some random paths, and other site elements. Clearly, they didn't give a shit about our ideas or expertise. Fine.
Not long after, we met in their office and I expressed my frustration. They made it very clear they didn't think landscape architects were useful in their process, and had no interest in working with us as designers. Ok. Meanwhile, I learn they've been dangling the project in front of a very prestigious landscape architect in California. The California la wasn't interested or wasn't available because that evaporated. They also felt it necessary, for what ever reason to remind me that another major la firm in the area had been courting the project. I basically said, "so the fuck what?, we're better designers..." I know. The meeting ended with me telling them we were no longer interested in working with them, at least as a building illustrator.
Months passed. They called back. We needed work and so obliged.
Of course, that residential project came back up. We were asked to make more renderings...this time they found a landSCAPER locally to make 'some landscaping plans'...oh boy. Of course, the plans sucked in every way imaginable, but we bit our tongues.
finally fed up with trying to 'talk' our way into the project, I decided to just go for it and put together an abbreviated concept package.
it was a solid package, lots of great diagrams, solid ideas, perspectives, professionally assembled, etc. I thought we hit perfectly on all the intangibles of the site they claim to hold so dear. For the first time, I got a message directly from the firm owner thanking us for a fantastic concept--he passed along the thought of compensating us for the good work and that he would like to work with us in more of a design capacity in the future.
I ran into my pm friend from the architecture firm--oddly, he openly shared his critique of our work. I was taken aback, but didn't rebuke.
Finally just recently we were once again asked to re-render the building. As we were briefed on the buildings progress and brought up to speed on the project, the pm mentioned in a very cavalier tone that they already had a site and landscape plan from yet another (again large) landscape consultant. The firm my pm friend had just worked moonlighted on another project with.
to add insult to injury, we were kindly asked to disregard the work we had done on the site and re-render with this firms design. Holy shit, the balls.
I politely refused to render another firms design. In fact, we still occasionally render other landscape architects work, but frankly, I didn't like the way this one came to us.
I find the Pm's to be blatantly disrespectful, dismissive, and pompous. I can only think this attitude comes from the perception that they have a golden carrot (in this project) and don't mind shopping it around for, from what I can tell street cred?
Now, we're a small outfit, we're still learning, and we're young, but in my heart of hearts I know we are talented, smart, creative, and offer unsurpassed service--we're fast, responsive, willing to do our homework, and relatively cheap.
I can only think the decisions this firm makes is based in vanity, and ego. Their work is interesting. But a lot of their work is pretty banale. The owner is a second generation architect with a history--maybe he never learned how hard it is to build a business from scratch? Maybe it doesn't matter.
I understand some architects might be threatened by landscape architects, some genuinely believe they can do a better job designing the site and landscape...fine. Ive made a point to not try to sell my entire profession, just my own skills, as a designer. If someone doesn't want to buy my services I walk away. I don't push. But when you continuously dangle that carrot in front of me, of course I am going to pursue.
the question is--do I lay it out there again? Refuse the rendering work and walk away? Do I push and try to compete (potentially losing my integrity)? Tell them to F off?
im finding myself in a position I am gleaning many architects cannot relate to--defending their profession, their integrity as professionals. I'm finding myself resisting, but absolutely livid inside that we have let this group play us again.
I think if I could pinpoint what's really bothering me about the situation it's the utter lack of integrity in my friend--it seems we were bypassed for more prestige. Really disappointing..not sure which direction to go here..
Larchinect
Dec 22, 14 8:38 pm
My rational business mind says I should ask politely why they chose the other consultant(s) over us, you know, so we can improve and stuff..
my irrational, emotional, designer-ego mind says I should throw the work back in their face and tell them to stop calling, lol.
maybe the answer is somewhere in between...what would flw do?
x-jla
Dec 22, 14 8:47 pm
stop sweating them.
Larchinect
Dec 22, 14 8:51 pm
Good point.
we're hungry.
x-jla
Dec 22, 14 8:54 pm
no offense but you sound like a guy obsessing over some girl that dosent like you. she just wants to be friends, so accept that or dont. there are plenty of fish my friend. Anyone who dosent respect good landscape design is probably a lousy architect anyway.
x-jla
Dec 22, 14 8:56 pm
Everyone is hungry, trick is you cant let anyone else know it. once they feel like you need them they will treat you that way.
Larchinect
Dec 22, 14 9:04 pm
No offense taken. I could see how it could seem that way, and maybe you're right. It occurs to me, however, there are times in business when you have to push, self advocate, and then there are times when playing it cool or even walking away pays.
mostly, this post is just a way to vent..I suppose.
midlander
Dec 22, 14 9:29 pm
Ha, I was going to make the same analogy as jla-x! This sounds like an abusive relationship. If you want to quit being typecast as a shop that renders crap designs you're going to have to stop doing that. It doesn't sound like this architect is going to be your ticket out, so drop them.
You don't have to make a scene or hurt their feelings - just tell them your office is going to focus on full-service landscape arch going forward, and that you'll be happy to discuss if they need such services in the future.
An aside: I've been working closely with a large residential developer recently. The landscaping is extremely important. It's not always high-design, but there is a lot of effort and thought that goes into this work. On many projects it matters more than the architecture because it actually creates the atmosphere residents experience when they first enter the community. For potential value to customers it's often a better use of money than an equal-cost upgrade to the architecture - and customers see it when they first come to look at the homes. It's really opened my eyes up to something I never paid much attention to before.
Miles Jaffe
Dec 22, 14 11:19 pm
Play hard to get. Delay the schedule due to conflicts with 'other' projects. Raise your prices.
Go backdoor: ask your PM friend for an introduction to the client.
Whatever you do stop sucking their dicks, sluts don't get any respect.
x intern
Dec 23, 14 10:49 am
You were hired to do renderings they obviously value your work in this respect or they wouldn't come back. Sounds like you've offered multiple times to do landscape design and they've rejected it or ignored it. Doing the work for free to prove a point only proves you don't value your work. You've now done it and you can't undo it so either render happily or cut them off. You are in a good position to raise fees on them as Miles suggested otherwise they have to start from scratch with someone else.
Once you become the render guy that's what you are, I came close to becoming that guy myself. Luckily I looked around and realized it wasn't a sound path to follow before getting to deep. The render guy isn't the design guy or the PM/PA he's the guy that makes pretty pictures. They don't want to hear your opinions, they don't care what you think could be better your job is to make their design into a pretty picture for the client.
You are marketing your skills backward, you can be the landscape firm that can do renderings but its unlikely you'll be successful as the rendering guy who can do landscape design. One is an added skill from a professional firm the other is a service company asking to do professional services that weren't requested.
Its like taking your car into a detail shop, they clean up your car make it look real nice then offer to do some work on the computer that runs your car so it will run better. Are you going to let the guy who cleans cars for a living monkey with the computer?
We are a small, fledgling business in a very tight knit community.
For the past two years we have been working on developing a relationship witha local architect. In the meantime, I've personally befriended one of the project managers.
This particular architect is notorious for disregarding the site/landscape. They began working with our small shop because we offered illustration. We have since evolved our business and are now focused on offering our graphics services only for our own design work. At the time we started working with them, they alluded to the idea of evolving our relationship, understanding that we wanted to get away from rendering-only work.
Our first project with them, two years ago, was on a large, contemporary residence. We completed several rounds of renderings, they were happy. As we completed second and third rounds of renderings we began asking more about the design of the site. For months we rendered the architecture, simply placing the building in a shrubby meadow and calling it good. As landscape architects, this was torture.
As time went on we respectfully asked to 'take a crack' at the site. Then we got frustrated when the architect asked us to plop I some random paths, and other site elements. Clearly, they didn't give a shit about our ideas or expertise. Fine.
Not long after, we met in their office and I expressed my frustration. They made it very clear they didn't think landscape architects were useful in their process, and had no interest in working with us as designers. Ok. Meanwhile, I learn they've been dangling the project in front of a very prestigious landscape architect in California. The California la wasn't interested or wasn't available because that evaporated. They also felt it necessary, for what ever reason to remind me that another major la firm in the area had been courting the project. I basically said, "so the fuck what?, we're better designers..." I know. The meeting ended with me telling them we were no longer interested in working with them, at least as a building illustrator.
Months passed. They called back. We needed work and so obliged.
Of course, that residential project came back up. We were asked to make more renderings...this time they found a landSCAPER locally to make 'some landscaping plans'...oh boy. Of course, the plans sucked in every way imaginable, but we bit our tongues.
finally fed up with trying to 'talk' our way into the project, I decided to just go for it and put together an abbreviated concept package.
it was a solid package, lots of great diagrams, solid ideas, perspectives, professionally assembled, etc. I thought we hit perfectly on all the intangibles of the site they claim to hold so dear. For the first time, I got a message directly from the firm owner thanking us for a fantastic concept--he passed along the thought of compensating us for the good work and that he would like to work with us in more of a design capacity in the future.
I ran into my pm friend from the architecture firm--oddly, he openly shared his critique of our work. I was taken aback, but didn't rebuke.
Finally just recently we were once again asked to re-render the building. As we were briefed on the buildings progress and brought up to speed on the project, the pm mentioned in a very cavalier tone that they already had a site and landscape plan from yet another (again large) landscape consultant. The firm my pm friend had just worked moonlighted on another project with.
to add insult to injury, we were kindly asked to disregard the work we had done on the site and re-render with this firms design. Holy shit, the balls.
I politely refused to render another firms design. In fact, we still occasionally render other landscape architects work, but frankly, I didn't like the way this one came to us.
I find the Pm's to be blatantly disrespectful, dismissive, and pompous. I can only think this attitude comes from the perception that they have a golden carrot (in this project) and don't mind shopping it around for, from what I can tell street cred?
Now, we're a small outfit, we're still learning, and we're young, but in my heart of hearts I know we are talented, smart, creative, and offer unsurpassed service--we're fast, responsive, willing to do our homework, and relatively cheap.
I can only think the decisions this firm makes is based in vanity, and ego. Their work is interesting. But a lot of their work is pretty banale. The owner is a second generation architect with a history--maybe he never learned how hard it is to build a business from scratch? Maybe it doesn't matter.
I understand some architects might be threatened by landscape architects, some genuinely believe they can do a better job designing the site and landscape...fine. Ive made a point to not try to sell my entire profession, just my own skills, as a designer. If someone doesn't want to buy my services I walk away. I don't push. But when you continuously dangle that carrot in front of me, of course I am going to pursue.
the question is--do I lay it out there again? Refuse the rendering work and walk away? Do I push and try to compete (potentially losing my integrity)? Tell them to F off?
im finding myself in a position I am gleaning many architects cannot relate to--defending their profession, their integrity as professionals. I'm finding myself resisting, but absolutely livid inside that we have let this group play us again.
I think if I could pinpoint what's really bothering me about the situation it's the utter lack of integrity in my friend--it seems we were bypassed for more prestige. Really disappointing..not sure which direction to go here..
My rational business mind says I should ask politely why they chose the other consultant(s) over us, you know, so we can improve and stuff..
my irrational, emotional, designer-ego mind says I should throw the work back in their face and tell them to stop calling, lol.
maybe the answer is somewhere in between...what would flw do?
stop sweating them.
Good point.
we're hungry.
no offense but you sound like a guy obsessing over some girl that dosent like you. she just wants to be friends, so accept that or dont. there are plenty of fish my friend. Anyone who dosent respect good landscape design is probably a lousy architect anyway.
Everyone is hungry, trick is you cant let anyone else know it. once they feel like you need them they will treat you that way.
No offense taken. I could see how it could seem that way, and maybe you're right. It occurs to me, however, there are times in business when you have to push, self advocate, and then there are times when playing it cool or even walking away pays.
mostly, this post is just a way to vent..I suppose.
Ha, I was going to make the same analogy as jla-x! This sounds like an abusive relationship. If you want to quit being typecast as a shop that renders crap designs you're going to have to stop doing that. It doesn't sound like this architect is going to be your ticket out, so drop them.
You don't have to make a scene or hurt their feelings - just tell them your office is going to focus on full-service landscape arch going forward, and that you'll be happy to discuss if they need such services in the future.
An aside: I've been working closely with a large residential developer recently. The landscaping is extremely important. It's not always high-design, but there is a lot of effort and thought that goes into this work. On many projects it matters more than the architecture because it actually creates the atmosphere residents experience when they first enter the community. For potential value to customers it's often a better use of money than an equal-cost upgrade to the architecture - and customers see it when they first come to look at the homes. It's really opened my eyes up to something I never paid much attention to before.
Play hard to get. Delay the schedule due to conflicts with 'other' projects. Raise your prices.
Go backdoor: ask your PM friend for an introduction to the client.
Whatever you do stop sucking their dicks, sluts don't get any respect.
You were hired to do renderings they obviously value your work in this respect or they wouldn't come back. Sounds like you've offered multiple times to do landscape design and they've rejected it or ignored it. Doing the work for free to prove a point only proves you don't value your work. You've now done it and you can't undo it so either render happily or cut them off. You are in a good position to raise fees on them as Miles suggested otherwise they have to start from scratch with someone else.
Once you become the render guy that's what you are, I came close to becoming that guy myself. Luckily I looked around and realized it wasn't a sound path to follow before getting to deep. The render guy isn't the design guy or the PM/PA he's the guy that makes pretty pictures. They don't want to hear your opinions, they don't care what you think could be better your job is to make their design into a pretty picture for the client.
You are marketing your skills backward, you can be the landscape firm that can do renderings but its unlikely you'll be successful as the rendering guy who can do landscape design. One is an added skill from a professional firm the other is a service company asking to do professional services that weren't requested.
Its like taking your car into a detail shop, they clean up your car make it look real nice then offer to do some work on the computer that runs your car so it will run better. Are you going to let the guy who cleans cars for a living monkey with the computer?