This article is fabulous. I usually view FastCo as borderline clickbait, but this was worthwhile in many ways. I guess Calatrava's isn't the kind of hand drawing Graves appreciates.
Donna Sink
Dec 19, 14 7:05 am
That was an enjoyable read.
But wow. Wow. Did Michael Graves actually say that? If so, my respect for him just plummeted. Off the charts. Jeez.
b3tadine[sutures]
Dec 19, 14 7:14 am
I'm sorry, but I've never liked this guy, or his work. He's the Yanni of the architecture world. I'll take Karim Rashid over this Cala-fucking-trava!
DTL DWG
Dec 19, 14 7:25 am
Nice article. Graves is not even in the same league as Calatrava. Of course it's a different kind of hand drawing, one that requires vision and artistic instinct and not architecture based on hand drawing formalism... If you have a chance go downtown and see Calatravas building, with regard to form in nyc it stands out like FLW's Guggenheim.
Donna Sink
Dec 19, 14 9:39 am
Re: Graves' impression of Calatrava, here is my impression of Graves:
"I'll design a thing that looks exactly like a toilet plunger and have millions of them manufactured in China! But they won't actually function for plunging anything so all millions of them will end up in a landfill! Not my fucking problem, but I still hold the licensing fees mwahahahaha!"
x intern
Dec 19, 14 10:28 am
I actually like Calatrava's work in pictures at least. The article mentions the bridge in Dallas and it is impressive but a white bridge in Texas is a REALLY bad idea. I drive across it daily and the city has already had to clean the entire bridge once because it turns brown up to about 20 feet. Its on its way to brown again. Even sillier the design stops abruptly and turns into a kind of yellow and blue typical Dallas bridge at the river banks. Seems like this could have been handled much more elegantly. It also leads to the run down area on the other side of the trinity river. They put a few restaurants at the end but after that is just mechanic shops and some run down strip malls. Looks nice from a distance though, I can only assume that was the point.
null pointer
Dec 19, 14 11:37 am
Graves is and will always be a backwards idiot in my eyes.
Proof that no amount of Princeton can save backwards thinker.
As to Calatrava - he really just needs to take a hint from Gehry and Zaha and hire a good PR department. Shit happens to everyone. It's all about how you spin it.
SneakyPete
Dec 19, 14 11:57 am
"In a recent interview at Calatrava's Park Avenue townhouse in New York..."
That kinda says it all.
Saint in the City
Dec 19, 14 12:58 pm
^ jeez, I'd hope not... where a guy lives encompasses what he is?
null pointer
Dec 19, 14 1:57 pm
Actually, it'd be far more worrisome if it said "from his penthouse on 57th street".
Goes to show Sneaky's lack of awareness of "micro-context" in Manhattan.
sameolddoctor
Dec 19, 14 5:43 pm
They both design poop. Graves' is smellier.
Miles Jaffe
Dec 19, 14 6:13 pm
I like his bridges, the architecture not so much.
++ null (PR)
+++ doc
where a guy lives encompasses what he is?
Pretty much true around here.
DTL DWG
Dec 19, 14 6:38 pm
I am with ya Donna.....SneakyPete so you don't think architects deserve money, I imagine your salary sucks....anyway null pointer pointed out what you apparently don't know................so let's break down the New York Five and see which one is the hack? Word on the street is they used to get drinks at I.M. Pei's Four Seasons back in the day...........................Richard Meier - you want to experience all the Architecture you learn about, modernism and an extension of Corb viscerally visit a Meier building, not a hack. If he wrote more theory I would disagree with Kipnis claiming Tschumi is the best theoretical practicing architect....... ......... Charles Gwathmey - the few buildings I know and the texts about I have read, no bullshit, good work..............Peter Eisenman - hit or miss and lots and lots of theory. You can't hate a guy for making you think. I may think everything he says is wrong but I would not have known that without thinking about it first..................John Hejduk - great educator i have heard and beautiful narratives and stories on architecture.....................Michael Graves - his first projects looked like what Meier and Gwathmey were doing then his later projects looks like he read too much Venturi Scott Brown and finally he end his career doing toilet plungers. He went from white to gray to black, is he adaptive or a copy cat? I believe it's clear Michael Graves is hack.
SneakyPete
Dec 19, 14 7:19 pm
Don't put words in my mouth and don't assume you know anything about me. If you don't understand what I say, ask me.
DTL DWG
Dec 19, 14 7:42 pm
You sure?
SneakyPete
Dec 19, 14 7:48 pm
Nothing in my previous statement should in any way lead one to the response "You sure?".
b3tadine[sutures]
Dec 19, 14 7:51 pm
Anyone see Snowpiercer?
I have a confidential source, and she tells me, that just like in Snowpiercer, Cala-fucking-trava has four tall children running the gear system that opens all of his mobile masturbarchitecture. And I hear they eat the same crap that GITMO detainees eat.
Tru dat.
SneakyPete
Dec 19, 14 7:55 pm
I saw that. I wish it had been better, but it was still fun.
Miles Jaffe
Dec 19, 14 9:01 pm
Too violent, I bailed quickly.
You are what you eat.
x-jla
Dec 19, 14 10:31 pm
Graves and Eisenman accuse Calatrava of arrogance. talk about "the pot calling the kettle black"
,,,,
Dec 20, 14 6:19 am
Architecture: The Gentlemen's Profession
chigurh
Dec 21, 14 9:26 am
no shit jla-x!
Saint in the City
Dec 21, 14 2:43 pm
^^ yah. I'm thinking how pervasive this is. School. Work. Starchitects. Archinect. Big firms. Small firms. Good architects and not-so-good architects.
Volunteer
Dec 21, 14 10:32 pm
So Gehry flipping the bird to a questioner wasn't an outlier? Can you imagine real professionals, like heart surgeons, behaving this way?
go do it
Dec 21, 14 10:42 pm
I think I like his design process. And his train station Gare de Saint-Exupéry TGV is pretty bad ass.
midlander
Dec 21, 14 10:52 pm
I've enjoyed every Calatrava work I've visited. There's a place for hood-ornament architecture, and I feel that's where he fits in. He seems to have plenty self-awareness (more than some of his clients...) and recognizes that his role is to prettify ordinary and sometimes complicated buildings.
I was surprised at Graves' hostility towards someone who works largely in a different realm and towards different purposes. The world is big enough for both.
b3tadine[sutures]
Dec 21, 14 11:29 pm
I know for a fact; Heart Surgeons are the biggest assholes on the planet.
Donna Sink
Dec 22, 14 6:49 am
beta, did an evil heart surgeon remove your heart from your chest and that's why you're so surly?!
I'm pretty sure that Steven Ward posted here, years ago, that he had seen Graves lecture and that one of the things he said was that we should have professional respect for one another and not cut down another architect's work while it's still in design/construction phases, only reasonable critique of success or failure after the project is complete.
So this is completely childish of him: taunting Calatrava's name, then repeating the fallacious claim that the transit center BUILDING cost $4billion. The NYTimes story very clearly laid out why that cost spiraled so high and it all had to do with necessary infrastructure and phasing issues.
Graves screwed the pooch here. After arguing eloquently for saving his Portland building, garnering sympathy for respecting his canon, he comes out and attacks another architect, in another market as midlander said, for no reason other than getting a laugh? What an asshole.
As for Eisenman he has ALWAYS been an asshole, proudly so, with his refusal to pay interns and expectation that this proves how special he is. They both look so small-minded now. Great legacy to leave, little boys.
DTL DWG
Dec 22, 14 7:15 am
I agree Donna. The legacy will be what shows up first on Google, maybe they do not know that. This type of thing always gets more hits than substance. In 30 years a student will be asked to write a paper about the Graves and Eisenman vs Calatrava debate, this thread here will be referenced and a main source for scholarly reporting. Nevermind Calatrava who I am certain has more money than Graves and Eisenman combined could buy Kean's school of Architecture name and all that history will have to report is two old farts hurled insults at a legend who has a school named after him in NJ....or something.
curtkram
Dec 22, 14 9:24 am
i think graves is getting a bad rap here. eisenman is such a tool that people around him can become tools. i know graves doesn't have the sort of pure soul that will allow him to overcome the douchebaggery of eisenman proximity, but most people probably don't.
graves is certainly not perfect because he lacks the strength of will that would allow him to carry the ring to mordor, so it would make sense that he shouldn't be the chosen one of architecture. however, i think to sully his character like this, one would have to cross-verify the statements he made against calatrava with similar statements made while not in the presence of eisenman.
Miles Jaffe
Dec 22, 14 9:27 am
Gehry thinks his Pritzker is a Ring of Power.
null pointer
Dec 22, 14 10:17 am
Why do we even talk about Graves?
He talks pretty, but he's a pretty shitty designer.
Donna Sink
Dec 22, 14 11:11 am
eisenman is such a tool that people around him can become tools.
I love this sentence. It's like tool-making is his secret evil superpower.
For most architects tool-making would be an awesome skill, but that's a different kind of tool.
Miles Jaffe
Dec 22, 14 11:14 am
++ null
Except for the pretty talk part.
b3tadine[sutures]
Dec 22, 14 11:15 am
Remove? My heart? That presumes I have one, if I had one, I'd certainly be aware of it, but alas, I've yet to find one beating.
chigurh
Dec 22, 14 2:10 pm
Agree with Miles and Null, Graves=100% irrelevant
Fucking Target teapot designer, that shit was so wack!
TIQM
Dec 22, 14 4:16 pm
I love my Graves teapot.
curtkram
Dec 22, 14 4:33 pm
i have a set of graves measuring spoons. they have the '1/2 teaspoon' or whatever bumped out of the rubber rather than printed on, which means it doesn't go away after the second time it goes in the dishwasher. odd how almost all measuring cups are designed to more or less destroy themselves after only a few uses.
I love my Graves watch. Orange face, blue second hand. I get compliments on it all the time. My wrist-fucking-watch.
Alien 8
Dec 22, 14 6:11 pm
Nah, Chris, that Michael Graves is also irrelevant... Here's why.
chigurh
Dec 22, 14 6:20 pm
holy shit, I just googled "michael graves teapot", under images, there was a side by side of hitler and one of his his ugly ass pots. Apparently people think the kettle bears resemblance to hitler and JC Penny pulled the product.
This article is fabulous. I usually view FastCo as borderline clickbait, but this was worthwhile in many ways. I guess Calatrava's isn't the kind of hand drawing Graves appreciates.
That was an enjoyable read.
But wow. Wow. Did Michael Graves actually say that? If so, my respect for him just plummeted. Off the charts. Jeez.
I'm sorry, but I've never liked this guy, or his work. He's the Yanni of the architecture world. I'll take Karim Rashid over this Cala-fucking-trava!
Nice article. Graves is not even in the same league as Calatrava. Of course it's a different kind of hand drawing, one that requires vision and artistic instinct and not architecture based on hand drawing formalism... If you have a chance go downtown and see Calatravas building, with regard to form in nyc it stands out like FLW's Guggenheim.
Re: Graves' impression of Calatrava, here is my impression of Graves:
"I'll design a thing that looks exactly like a toilet plunger and have millions of them manufactured in China! But they won't actually function for plunging anything so all millions of them will end up in a landfill! Not my fucking problem, but I still hold the licensing fees mwahahahaha!"
I actually like Calatrava's work in pictures at least. The article mentions the bridge in Dallas and it is impressive but a white bridge in Texas is a REALLY bad idea. I drive across it daily and the city has already had to clean the entire bridge once because it turns brown up to about 20 feet. Its on its way to brown again. Even sillier the design stops abruptly and turns into a kind of yellow and blue typical Dallas bridge at the river banks. Seems like this could have been handled much more elegantly. It also leads to the run down area on the other side of the trinity river. They put a few restaurants at the end but after that is just mechanic shops and some run down strip malls. Looks nice from a distance though, I can only assume that was the point.
Graves is and will always be a backwards idiot in my eyes.
Proof that no amount of Princeton can save backwards thinker.
As to Calatrava - he really just needs to take a hint from Gehry and Zaha and hire a good PR department. Shit happens to everyone. It's all about how you spin it.
"In a recent interview at Calatrava's Park Avenue townhouse in New York..."
That kinda says it all.
^ jeez, I'd hope not... where a guy lives encompasses what he is?
Actually, it'd be far more worrisome if it said "from his penthouse on 57th street".
Goes to show Sneaky's lack of awareness of "micro-context" in Manhattan.
They both design poop. Graves' is smellier.
I like his bridges, the architecture not so much.
++ null (PR)
+++ doc
where a guy lives encompasses what he is?
Pretty much true around here.
I am with ya Donna.....SneakyPete so you don't think architects deserve money, I imagine your salary sucks....anyway null pointer pointed out what you apparently don't know................so let's break down the New York Five and see which one is the hack? Word on the street is they used to get drinks at I.M. Pei's Four Seasons back in the day...........................Richard Meier - you want to experience all the Architecture you learn about, modernism and an extension of Corb viscerally visit a Meier building, not a hack. If he wrote more theory I would disagree with Kipnis claiming Tschumi is the best theoretical practicing architect....... ......... Charles Gwathmey - the few buildings I know and the texts about I have read, no bullshit, good work..............Peter Eisenman - hit or miss and lots and lots of theory. You can't hate a guy for making you think. I may think everything he says is wrong but I would not have known that without thinking about it first..................John Hejduk - great educator i have heard and beautiful narratives and stories on architecture.....................Michael Graves - his first projects looked like what Meier and Gwathmey were doing then his later projects looks like he read too much Venturi Scott Brown and finally he end his career doing toilet plungers. He went from white to gray to black, is he adaptive or a copy cat? I believe it's clear Michael Graves is hack.
Don't put words in my mouth and don't assume you know anything about me. If you don't understand what I say, ask me.
You sure?
Nothing in my previous statement should in any way lead one to the response "You sure?".
Anyone see Snowpiercer?
I have a confidential source, and she tells me, that just like in Snowpiercer, Cala-fucking-trava has four tall children running the gear system that opens all of his mobile masturbarchitecture. And I hear they eat the same crap that GITMO detainees eat.
Tru dat.
I saw that. I wish it had been better, but it was still fun.
Too violent, I bailed quickly.
You are what you eat.
Graves and Eisenman accuse Calatrava of arrogance. talk about "the pot calling the kettle black"
Architecture: The Gentlemen's Profession
no shit jla-x!
^^ yah. I'm thinking how pervasive this is. School. Work. Starchitects. Archinect. Big firms. Small firms. Good architects and not-so-good architects.
So Gehry flipping the bird to a questioner wasn't an outlier? Can you imagine real professionals, like heart surgeons, behaving this way?
I think I like his design process. And his train station Gare de Saint-Exupéry TGV is pretty bad ass.
I've enjoyed every Calatrava work I've visited. There's a place for hood-ornament architecture, and I feel that's where he fits in. He seems to have plenty self-awareness (more than some of his clients...) and recognizes that his role is to prettify ordinary and sometimes complicated buildings.
I was surprised at Graves' hostility towards someone who works largely in a different realm and towards different purposes. The world is big enough for both.
I know for a fact; Heart Surgeons are the biggest assholes on the planet.
beta, did an evil heart surgeon remove your heart from your chest and that's why you're so surly?!
I'm pretty sure that Steven Ward posted here, years ago, that he had seen Graves lecture and that one of the things he said was that we should have professional respect for one another and not cut down another architect's work while it's still in design/construction phases, only reasonable critique of success or failure after the project is complete.
So this is completely childish of him: taunting Calatrava's name, then repeating the fallacious claim that the transit center BUILDING cost $4billion. The NYTimes story very clearly laid out why that cost spiraled so high and it all had to do with necessary infrastructure and phasing issues.
Graves screwed the pooch here. After arguing eloquently for saving his Portland building, garnering sympathy for respecting his canon, he comes out and attacks another architect, in another market as midlander said, for no reason other than getting a laugh? What an asshole.
As for Eisenman he has ALWAYS been an asshole, proudly so, with his refusal to pay interns and expectation that this proves how special he is. They both look so small-minded now. Great legacy to leave, little boys.
I agree Donna. The legacy will be what shows up first on Google, maybe they do not know that. This type of thing always gets more hits than substance. In 30 years a student will be asked to write a paper about the Graves and Eisenman vs Calatrava debate, this thread here will be referenced and a main source for scholarly reporting. Nevermind Calatrava who I am certain has more money than Graves and Eisenman combined could buy Kean's school of Architecture name and all that history will have to report is two old farts hurled insults at a legend who has a school named after him in NJ....or something.
i think graves is getting a bad rap here. eisenman is such a tool that people around him can become tools. i know graves doesn't have the sort of pure soul that will allow him to overcome the douchebaggery of eisenman proximity, but most people probably don't.
graves is certainly not perfect because he lacks the strength of will that would allow him to carry the ring to mordor, so it would make sense that he shouldn't be the chosen one of architecture. however, i think to sully his character like this, one would have to cross-verify the statements he made against calatrava with similar statements made while not in the presence of eisenman.
Gehry thinks his Pritzker is a Ring of Power.
Why do we even talk about Graves?
He talks pretty, but he's a pretty shitty designer.
eisenman is such a tool that people around him can become tools.
I love this sentence. It's like tool-making is his secret evil superpower.
For most architects tool-making would be an awesome skill, but that's a different kind of tool.
++ null
Except for the pretty talk part.
Remove? My heart? That presumes I have one, if I had one, I'd certainly be aware of it, but alas, I've yet to find one beating.
Agree with Miles and Null, Graves=100% irrelevant
Fucking Target teapot designer, that shit was so wack!
I love my Graves teapot.
i have a set of graves measuring spoons. they have the '1/2 teaspoon' or whatever bumped out of the rubber rather than printed on, which means it doesn't go away after the second time it goes in the dishwasher. odd how almost all measuring cups are designed to more or less destroy themselves after only a few uses.
You know there is another Michael Graves from New Jersey worth talking about - The Misfits........... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michale_Graves
I love my Graves watch. Orange face, blue second hand. I get compliments on it all the time. My wrist-fucking-watch.
Nah, Chris, that Michael Graves is also irrelevant... Here's why.
holy shit, I just googled "michael graves teapot", under images, there was a side by side of hitler and one of his his ugly ass pots. Apparently people think the kettle bears resemblance to hitler and JC Penny pulled the product.
link:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/tempest-teapot-hitler-kettle-pulled-article-1.1359065
I wonder if he created other products in the likeness famous nazis?
lol. Ive seen that before. I highly doubt that he is artistic/clever enough to ever pull that off intentionally.
The giveaway was when the Graves teapot sang out the Horst Wessel song when the water boiled.
wake me up when the fuck-o-rama ends and all the cad monkeys reached an orgasm.
No offense Donna but: I get more compliments for my red Casio G-Shock than for my Rolex Oyster; it doesn't mean it's "better".
Apparantly Superking has been zapped with Eisenmans tool ray.
Alien 8 that was hilarious, never saw that one.
No offense Donna but: I get more compliments for my red Casio G-Shock than for my Rolex Oyster; it doesn't mean it's "better".
if that's what the public wants.....
peter's an ass, but a great fucking teacher. you can keep your bitching about toilet plungers and teapots. ill keep my faith in good teachers.
nice hat