I'm a recent graduate from USC undergrad, working in big corporate firm in Los Angeles right now.
I was wondering what my chances would be if I were to find a junior position in Dubai or Qatar after having approx. 2 yrs of experience.
Based on my reseach I learned that there are alot more things that matter besides my portfolio / experience... so below are information about myself:
Nationality: American Experience: 2 years Education: University of Southern California, Bachelors degree in Architecture. Ethnicity: Korean
It'd be great if you guys can share some information about working in Middle East in general- How hard is it to find a job as a junior, Salary ranges, Living experience, etc..
OK... not quite what I'm looking for but interesting.
sameolddoctor
Aug 18, 14 2:51 pm
you find that interesting? Good, you are probably the right fit for employers there. Just do some sexy forms without giving a rats ass about anything else.
I digress, though.
Quite frankly (and sorry for the harshness), but youd make more bank there if you were white. , thats they way they do it. You will learn a lot, if you learn to ignore bunch of social stuff. you can make a lot of money, but be careful, the rents are much higher than LA (unless you decide to live with the workers that build your shit)
CD.Arch
Aug 18, 14 3:00 pm
You aren't going to be able to work in either of those places without labor issues etc so honestly Curt's articles should be something you take into account. Also, I was thinking you should take more into account which country's infrastructure needs more work... That's where you'll find work.
chatter of clouds
Aug 18, 14 4:04 pm
dirodl,
I'm pretty sure you have good chances. Just do your research on which multinational firms operate there and apply to them. No one here really can quantify your percentages of success but, from what I hear, things have picked up in Dubai and there's a lot of work being done in Qatar. Just apply and best of luck.
I would like to add a few words in regards to the labour issues in these countries that have been discusses already. I agree with CD.Arch that you should be taking these into consideration. But merely foregrounding them without then perceiving how you, an individual interested in working there, should factor these in suggests, to me, that these are being used to somewhat discourage you from working there.
Thus, the cited links should come with an elaboration on the role of foreign architects in these countries. I also have a faint suspicion that some, here are being hypocritical - they have proven elsewhere on this board that it is not humaneness that they care about in the least...and so I suspect an undercurrent of an altogether something-else, a clichéd hating on one of those arab countries perhaps (I'm not including you sameolddoctor)
Anyway, I've worked in the region and know relatively well enough the harsh and sometimes inhumane conditions the labourers have to put up with and naturally I have my own ideas about this issue. But what I would like to ask, to those interested in answering and especially to those who have already been party to the construction industry there some questions (hi, sameolddoctor) :
-If you (and I) concur that the labourer conditions are dire, harsh, inhumane and so on...should we refrain from working in these countries/doing business with them?
- If not, what other measures have you taken - within your scope of work- to highlight the unacceptability of their conditions or, in the least, to improve on them?
- (How do you weigh selfish interest with these ethical ones - have you not, de facto, by accepting to continue working there after being aware of these dire conditions, privileged wealth and privilege over and above your ethical reservations?
And for those who have not worked there and who vocalize their objections to working there: If you were to be given a really hefty salary package, would you put aside your reservations and take the job offer in one of those countries?
curtkram
Aug 18, 14 4:13 pm
If you were to be given a really hefty salary package, would you put aside your reservations and take the job offer in one of those countries?
personally, i would consider more than just a hefty salary package even if i was relocating to a firm down the street. looking only at money is short-sighted and often not in your best interest.
some, here are being hypocritical
fwiw, he's referring to me
dirodl
Aug 18, 14 4:50 pm
I meant 'interesting' as 'I am going to look into it in depth'.
Thank you Tammuz for your opinion.
Any Ideas about salary? Is salary high enough to accommodate high housing fee?
gwharton
Aug 18, 14 6:51 pm
Dubai in particular is a very expensive place to live. Note also that local custom is for renters to pay an entire year's rent up front when signing a lease. If you borrow money to make purchases (such as a car, or whatever) be aware that the debt will essentially indenture you to stay in the emirate until it's paid off. Their bankruptcy laws don't work like ours do. When negotiating pay, you need to keep all this stuff in mind. It's a major reason why employers there will often wrap housing and car stipends into compensation packages.
You will not be able to get a work visa until you have a job offer, and your employer will be the sponsor and holder of the visa (similar to the H1B program in the USA). This can put you in a bad situation if you want to change jobs and your employer decides to be weird about it. You are required to have a full medical exam to get a work visa.
I do a lot of work in Dubai, Qatar, and elsewhere in MENA. Dubai in particular is great, and has a large expat community. I haven't lived there long-term yet, but I go to our office there for work all the time. It's a lot of fun and very rewarding. But it can also present unique challenges if you don't know what to watch out for. Go into it with your eyes open, do research, be prepared, and you'll be fine.
A.I.
Aug 19, 14 2:25 am
If you were working in the United States and you got assigned to the design team of a project that will be built in the Middle East, would you tell your boss that you don't want to work on that project because of moral reservations?
The architects living and working in:
Chicago - SOM
San Francisco - Gensler
St. Louis - HOK
Do they share any responsibility for any of the labor issues that may have taken place (or will take place) in the construction of:
Burj Khalifa
DIFC
Dubai Expo 2020
What's the difference between living in the United States and working on a project in the Middle East and living in the Middle East and working on a project there?
All three offices I mentioned have pretty large satellite offices in Dubai (or Abu Dhabi) that report directly back to their headquarters in the United States. Would you reject a good job offer with say H.O.K. in Dubai but accept one in St. Louis even if you'd be working on the exact same project?
Labor issues are definitely a serious problem and I'm not going to debate or challenge that, but to assert that there would be moral issues for the employee in practicing Architecture simply based on the physical location of work is ridiculous.
With the logic shown in the previous posts, we should hold every single SOM employee in Chicago responsible for all the labor issues that occurred in the construction of Burj Khalifa. Is that fair? I don't think so.
Anyway, to answer the OP's question, I suggest looking for positions with global firms (American or British) in the region. They pay better and they will not give you visa/employment issues. You're also an American citizen, so your offers will either match or be higher than offers in the U.S.
Hi All,
I'm a recent graduate from USC undergrad, working in big corporate firm in Los Angeles right now.
I was wondering what my chances would be if I were to find a junior position in Dubai or Qatar after having approx. 2 yrs of experience.
Based on my reseach I learned that there are alot more things that matter besides my portfolio / experience... so below are information about myself:
Nationality: American
Experience: 2 years
Education: University of Southern California, Bachelors degree in Architecture.
Ethnicity: Korean
It'd be great if you guys can share some information about working in Middle East in general-
How hard is it to find a job as a junior,
Salary ranges,
Living experience,
etc..
Thank you all in advance.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/02/qatar-official-says-worker-death-rate-normal-20142181886988990.html
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=44604#.U_JCRmPG-pM
http://www.hhrjournal.org/2013/08/20/human-rights-and-health-disparities-for-migrant-workers-in-the-uae/
OK... not quite what I'm looking for but interesting.
you find that interesting? Good, you are probably the right fit for employers there. Just do some sexy forms without giving a rats ass about anything else.
I digress, though.
Quite frankly (and sorry for the harshness), but youd make more bank there if you were white. , thats they way they do it. You will learn a lot, if you learn to ignore bunch of social stuff. you can make a lot of money, but be careful, the rents are much higher than LA (unless you decide to live with the workers that build your shit)
You aren't going to be able to work in either of those places without labor issues etc so honestly Curt's articles should be something you take into account. Also, I was thinking you should take more into account which country's infrastructure needs more work... That's where you'll find work.
dirodl,
I'm pretty sure you have good chances. Just do your research on which multinational firms operate there and apply to them. No one here really can quantify your percentages of success but, from what I hear, things have picked up in Dubai and there's a lot of work being done in Qatar. Just apply and best of luck.
I would like to add a few words in regards to the labour issues in these countries that have been discusses already. I agree with CD.Arch that you should be taking these into consideration. But merely foregrounding them without then perceiving how you, an individual interested in working there, should factor these in suggests, to me, that these are being used to somewhat discourage you from working there.
Thus, the cited links should come with an elaboration on the role of foreign architects in these countries. I also have a faint suspicion that some, here are being hypocritical - they have proven elsewhere on this board that it is not humaneness that they care about in the least...and so I suspect an undercurrent of an altogether something-else, a clichéd hating on one of those arab countries perhaps (I'm not including you sameolddoctor)
Anyway, I've worked in the region and know relatively well enough the harsh and sometimes inhumane conditions the labourers have to put up with and naturally I have my own ideas about this issue. But what I would like to ask, to those interested in answering and especially to those who have already been party to the construction industry there some questions (hi, sameolddoctor) :
-If you (and I) concur that the labourer conditions are dire, harsh, inhumane and so on...should we refrain from working in these countries/doing business with them?
- If not, what other measures have you taken - within your scope of work- to highlight the unacceptability of their conditions or, in the least, to improve on them?
- (How do you weigh selfish interest with these ethical ones - have you not, de facto, by accepting to continue working there after being aware of these dire conditions, privileged wealth and privilege over and above your ethical reservations?
And for those who have not worked there and who vocalize their objections to working there: If you were to be given a really hefty salary package, would you put aside your reservations and take the job offer in one of those countries?
If you were to be given a really hefty salary package, would you put aside your reservations and take the job offer in one of those countries?
personally, i would consider more than just a hefty salary package even if i was relocating to a firm down the street. looking only at money is short-sighted and often not in your best interest.
some, here are being hypocritical
fwiw, he's referring to me
I meant 'interesting' as 'I am going to look into it in depth'.
Thank you Tammuz for your opinion.
Any Ideas about salary?
Is salary high enough to accommodate high housing fee?
Dubai in particular is a very expensive place to live. Note also that local custom is for renters to pay an entire year's rent up front when signing a lease. If you borrow money to make purchases (such as a car, or whatever) be aware that the debt will essentially indenture you to stay in the emirate until it's paid off. Their bankruptcy laws don't work like ours do. When negotiating pay, you need to keep all this stuff in mind. It's a major reason why employers there will often wrap housing and car stipends into compensation packages.
You will not be able to get a work visa until you have a job offer, and your employer will be the sponsor and holder of the visa (similar to the H1B program in the USA). This can put you in a bad situation if you want to change jobs and your employer decides to be weird about it. You are required to have a full medical exam to get a work visa.
I do a lot of work in Dubai, Qatar, and elsewhere in MENA. Dubai in particular is great, and has a large expat community. I haven't lived there long-term yet, but I go to our office there for work all the time. It's a lot of fun and very rewarding. But it can also present unique challenges if you don't know what to watch out for. Go into it with your eyes open, do research, be prepared, and you'll be fine.
If you were working in the United States and you got assigned to the design team of a project that will be built in the Middle East, would you tell your boss that you don't want to work on that project because of moral reservations?
The architects living and working in:
Chicago - SOM
San Francisco - Gensler
St. Louis - HOK
Do they share any responsibility for any of the labor issues that may have taken place (or will take place) in the construction of:
Burj Khalifa
DIFC
Dubai Expo 2020
What's the difference between living in the United States and working on a project in the Middle East and living in the Middle East and working on a project there?
All three offices I mentioned have pretty large satellite offices in Dubai (or Abu Dhabi) that report directly back to their headquarters in the United States. Would you reject a good job offer with say H.O.K. in Dubai but accept one in St. Louis even if you'd be working on the exact same project?
Labor issues are definitely a serious problem and I'm not going to debate or challenge that, but to assert that there would be moral issues for the employee in practicing Architecture simply based on the physical location of work is ridiculous.
With the logic shown in the previous posts, we should hold every single SOM employee in Chicago responsible for all the labor issues that occurred in the construction of Burj Khalifa. Is that fair? I don't think so.
Anyway, to answer the OP's question, I suggest looking for positions with global firms (American or British) in the region. They pay better and they will not give you visa/employment issues. You're also an American citizen, so your offers will either match or be higher than offers in the U.S.
Also no taxes :).