I am looking for advice on asking clients and consultants who I have worked on projects for or with for letters of recommendation, but I would like my current boss to not find out/ feel like I am leaving, as I may not be. I would assume that, at least for any professional consultants, discretion would be implied in something like this, but I really have no idea.
Should I just be forward with these contacts - letting them know that I am thinking about moving on - and ask for or imply that their discretion would be appreciated?
Should I ask them for a letter of recommendation for my file, without specifying what timeframe it would happen within?
Other suggestions? I am particularly worried about asking the clients.
chigurh
Jul 21, 14 10:16 pm
Don't do it.
Your bosses consultants, regardless of how much rapport you have with them, are his/her consultants. He/she is probably sending them a shit-load of work and their relationship was established before you got there and will continue after you are gone. They will be/should be loyal to your boss and it would put them in an awkward professional position to be asked to write a letter of recommendation for an employee of the firm they are consulting for.
Clients same deal, but that could be even more personal/unethical, depending on the type of work your firm does. I wouldn't go near that with a 10 foot pole.
What you should do is get a letter of recommendation from your current boss. Be upfront, tell them you are thinking about leaving, ask them about timeframe to depart which would not hinder the firm, ask if they would be willing to write a letter on your behalf. Or wait until you have been out a few months then ask, that is usually the best time, after emotions have settled.
A single letter from a principal architect is worth far more than 20 letters from a bunch of civil engineers and MEP people that you talked to for maybe 10 hours over the course of your entire employment.
Be smart about it.
archanonymous
Jul 21, 14 11:27 pm
Thanks for the responses.
Extenuating factors:
My boss is not an architect- I have taken a bit of a career detour, but I lead lots of projects and collaborate frequently with our consultants - engineers, architects, government entities and directly with clients. The money does, of course, always flow through my boss.
I don't really think a recommendation from my boss and supervisor ( one and the same ) would mean a great deal when trying to get back into Architecture - he has no engineering or architectural education. It would be valuable as the recommendation of a former employer, but that is all. I was really angling to have some of these professionals write some recommendations based on experiences over several projects.
Could anyone who does consultanting speak to this? How would you feel if someone you had collaborated closely with and established a healthy rapport with asked you for a rec? A couple of the people I would ask have already agreed to be references. A letter of recommendation is much stronger in a resume packet than just a list of references.
curtkram
Jul 21, 14 11:37 pm
i'm not a consultant, but i don't think it hurts to asks.
it might be prudent to let them know you would appreciate their discretion. however, i think graduated is right and it's fairly likely every talks to everyone behind everyone's back. it's a hard line to follow, but you kind of have to assume everyone knows everything in some situations, and then assume they only know what you've specifically told them in other situations. the trick i suppose is knowing when to make which assumption
however, that doesn't mean you shouldn't touch this with a 10' pole. 8' would be fine. as far as i can tell most architects seem to do some job hopping. someone with the amount of experience your boss would likely have (assumption on my part there) shouldn't be surprised or upset that you're trying to see what else is going on in the world around you.
accesskb
Jul 22, 14 7:44 am
Don't ever, ever, ever, do anything behind the backs of another person if you'd hate them finding out. You might think the consultant or concerned party might be friendly and have mutual understanding with you but they're likely friendlier to your bosses, regardless if they don't make it seem as such. :)
archanonymous
Jul 22, 14 9:00 am
Given it is likely he will find out, how should I ask the consultants?
A request for a letter of recommendation for my professional file so that when I do move on, I have a more complete record of my career progression?
Or just ask for a letter of recommendation for employment, and leave it at that?
I feel it would at least be prudent to let these people know I am not "jumping ship", but just trying to document important projects in my career - I don't want to give the impression we are doing poorly - quite the opposite, in fact.
I will be sure to get my 930 hours of Supplemental IDP verified first, of course.
Carrera
Jul 22, 14 5:22 pm
Archanonymous, speaking as an employer be very careful here. Over the years I’ve gotten wind of these things and while I never let anybody go because of it, it didn’t make me happy. Trust is paramount with employers; it made me suspicious of them and retarded their opportunities with me.
Building a portfolio over your work career that includes insightful letters is a great idea, 5 Stars for that, but you need to do it looking back on past yet recent relationships, not present relationships. As others have said it will leak out and get misunderstood no matter how you crouch it.
Also, down the road I hope, when you do ask don’t just say “I was wondering if you could write a recommendation letter for me….” Write something insightful; try to be specific about a project, a problem you solved together or something else, give them clues on what to write about. The letters that you get back that say “Johnny was a good boy, we enjoyed working with him….”, put those in your journal, I just hated reading stuff like that.
quizzical
Jul 22, 14 7:18 pm
The way to manage this situation is to let your boss know that, at the end of every project on which you play a meaningful role, you would like to solicit select letters of recommendations from clients, consultants and contractors who know your work. Also mention that, at the same time, you would like to obtain (with appropriate reimbursement of reproduction costs) copies of appropriate project drawings and images for your professional portfolio.
If you start this process early in your tenure at the firm, then it just becomes background noise and doesn't send up any alarming flares indicating you're planning to leave the firm. Quite frankly, it shows a degree of discipline and organization often lacking among design professionals.
It's important that this be done above board and in a respectful manner. If your boss (and firm) are the least bit professional, they will understand your natural desire to accumulate appropriate materials for your professional portfolio. We've all done it and we always will. It's best to handle it in an overt, professional manner.
Good luck.
archanonymous
Jul 22, 14 9:33 pm
Quizzical, thanks for that response. I think I will just sit down with him and let him know this will be my standard operating practice from now on.
Careers - I have really enjoyed reading your hiring/ job search advice here, so thanks for that. I was planning on asking a particular client, for example, if he could speak to my skill and expertise relating complex structural ideas into feasible fabrication details using various software solutions. Or an engineer to speak to my performance collaborating with him, managing and developing drawing and quality control documents on one particular project.
Was thinking I would present these letters with hyperlinks embedded in the PDF that directs to the project on my website/ my firm's website/ the consultant's website and any media articles on it.
I am trying to be r really organized and precise about my portfolio and career documentation as I have spent 3 years in a nontraditional career path, not gaining idp core hours or experience in a true architecture office.
archanonymous
Jul 22, 14 9:56 pm
* oops, that was supposed to be Carerra.
Typing on the iphone
Bench
Jul 22, 14 10:32 pm
Letter of recommendation = terrible employee? I think you screwed up somewhere in that equation.
Gregory Walker
Jul 23, 14 8:34 am
graduated - potential clients live for letters of recommendation. they want to work with someone they can trust.
quiz has the best approach - make it a part of your routine. i'd go a step further and share them with your current employer. if it's helping call attention to your performance in the eyes of THEIR clients, it can only help you be given more responsibility over projects.
absolutely do it as a general practice. i wish i'd gotten a few more before starting our firm. we definitely ask every client for one at the conclusion of the project (actually, we wait until they've moved in for a few months.)
Carrera
Jul 23, 14 11:40 am
Archanonymous and GraduatedLicensure, here is another point of view....when I was coming up I guess I never thought of this idea of collecting letters, but as time passed I naturally dropped-the-ball sometimes on things/projects, got crossways with people over little things, a law suite or two…..its going to happen….then there are the ass-holes you meet along the way. People have no compunction over saying something bad.
One time I picked up a whisper or two and thought “Jesus, what about all the good things I’ve done? The good projects? What about all the people that loved working with me and liked me and had no problem with me?” So I went into a scramble to collect and it helped the situation and me personally. Today these things can be put on a web page or on LinkedIn too….its pretty hard to believe a rumor when the facts and good stuff are staring them in the face-black and white.
5 Stars for the no-bullshit rule, I already commented on this.
Archanonymous, another idea you might consider is starting a FaceBook account. Build the whole thing around your career. Build the history there. None of this bull-shit, pissing cheer on each other kind of thing, a hard, serious professional page featuring your works, things you accomplish along the way, a problem you solved that day, a day-in-the-life….pictures of your present and past work and projects you are currently working on….things you are doing in the community. Draw in accolades that way. Here you just innocently invite people with a bunch of clicks, inviting people to follow you and comment. You don’t have to explain anything to anybody it’s just a party and everyone is invited. Your boss will love the exposure and the enthusiasm that is displayed.
archanonymous
Jul 23, 14 2:29 pm
Gregory Walker - I am actually pursuing some of my own small jobs (and won an $8k street-furniture design commission!!!) It will be the first project done under an llc I am starting for this kind of work and consulting. So it sound like getting these will not only help keep me gainfully employed and moving towards licensure, but will give me a good starting point when I am ready to put all my eggs in my own basket.
Carerra - That is an interesting thought. I have a LinkedIn, but it is not too user-friendly and I am not real into it. I do something similar with Instagram - a visual diary of sorts - but I had not thought of tailoring it to focus on only my career. My Instagram is almost only my own works, not things done professionally, so it would certainly give a different vibe.
sidisoueina
Sep 17, 17 3:15 pm
Hello.
An employee is asking me to specifically put the a name of one of our clients on his recommendation letter (the one I am planning on writing for him). He happens to serve this client as one of our employees and he things its prestegious to have the clients name on his recommendation letter.
What's your take on that?
Sid.
randomised
Sep 17, 17 3:35 pm
What's the harm? Just include it. Unless the client wants to remain anonymous as the client of that particular project to the outside world of course.
I am looking for advice on asking clients and consultants who I have worked on projects for or with for letters of recommendation, but I would like my current boss to not find out/ feel like I am leaving, as I may not be. I would assume that, at least for any professional consultants, discretion would be implied in something like this, but I really have no idea.
Should I just be forward with these contacts - letting them know that I am thinking about moving on - and ask for or imply that their discretion would be appreciated?
Should I ask them for a letter of recommendation for my file, without specifying what timeframe it would happen within?
Other suggestions? I am particularly worried about asking the clients.
Don't do it.
Your bosses consultants, regardless of how much rapport you have with them, are his/her consultants. He/she is probably sending them a shit-load of work and their relationship was established before you got there and will continue after you are gone. They will be/should be loyal to your boss and it would put them in an awkward professional position to be asked to write a letter of recommendation for an employee of the firm they are consulting for.
Clients same deal, but that could be even more personal/unethical, depending on the type of work your firm does. I wouldn't go near that with a 10 foot pole.
What you should do is get a letter of recommendation from your current boss. Be upfront, tell them you are thinking about leaving, ask them about timeframe to depart which would not hinder the firm, ask if they would be willing to write a letter on your behalf. Or wait until you have been out a few months then ask, that is usually the best time, after emotions have settled.
A single letter from a principal architect is worth far more than 20 letters from a bunch of civil engineers and MEP people that you talked to for maybe 10 hours over the course of your entire employment.
Be smart about it.
Thanks for the responses.
Extenuating factors:
My boss is not an architect- I have taken a bit of a career detour, but I lead lots of projects and collaborate frequently with our consultants - engineers, architects, government entities and directly with clients. The money does, of course, always flow through my boss.
I don't really think a recommendation from my boss and supervisor ( one and the same ) would mean a great deal when trying to get back into Architecture - he has no engineering or architectural education. It would be valuable as the recommendation of a former employer, but that is all. I was really angling to have some of these professionals write some recommendations based on experiences over several projects.
Could anyone who does consultanting speak to this? How would you feel if someone you had collaborated closely with and established a healthy rapport with asked you for a rec? A couple of the people I would ask have already agreed to be references. A letter of recommendation is much stronger in a resume packet than just a list of references.
i'm not a consultant, but i don't think it hurts to asks.
it might be prudent to let them know you would appreciate their discretion. however, i think graduated is right and it's fairly likely every talks to everyone behind everyone's back. it's a hard line to follow, but you kind of have to assume everyone knows everything in some situations, and then assume they only know what you've specifically told them in other situations. the trick i suppose is knowing when to make which assumption
however, that doesn't mean you shouldn't touch this with a 10' pole. 8' would be fine. as far as i can tell most architects seem to do some job hopping. someone with the amount of experience your boss would likely have (assumption on my part there) shouldn't be surprised or upset that you're trying to see what else is going on in the world around you.
Don't ever, ever, ever, do anything behind the backs of another person if you'd hate them finding out. You might think the consultant or concerned party might be friendly and have mutual understanding with you but they're likely friendlier to your bosses, regardless if they don't make it seem as such. :)
Given it is likely he will find out, how should I ask the consultants?
A request for a letter of recommendation for my professional file so that when I do move on, I have a more complete record of my career progression?
Or just ask for a letter of recommendation for employment, and leave it at that?
I feel it would at least be prudent to let these people know I am not "jumping ship", but just trying to document important projects in my career - I don't want to give the impression we are doing poorly - quite the opposite, in fact.
I will be sure to get my 930 hours of Supplemental IDP verified first, of course.
Archanonymous, speaking as an employer be very careful here. Over the years I’ve gotten wind of these things and while I never let anybody go because of it, it didn’t make me happy. Trust is paramount with employers; it made me suspicious of them and retarded their opportunities with me.
Building a portfolio over your work career that includes insightful letters is a great idea, 5 Stars for that, but you need to do it looking back on past yet recent relationships, not present relationships. As others have said it will leak out and get misunderstood no matter how you crouch it.
Also, down the road I hope, when you do ask don’t just say “I was wondering if you could write a recommendation letter for me….” Write something insightful; try to be specific about a project, a problem you solved together or something else, give them clues on what to write about. The letters that you get back that say “Johnny was a good boy, we enjoyed working with him….”, put those in your journal, I just hated reading stuff like that.
The way to manage this situation is to let your boss know that, at the end of every project on which you play a meaningful role, you would like to solicit select letters of recommendations from clients, consultants and contractors who know your work. Also mention that, at the same time, you would like to obtain (with appropriate reimbursement of reproduction costs) copies of appropriate project drawings and images for your professional portfolio.
If you start this process early in your tenure at the firm, then it just becomes background noise and doesn't send up any alarming flares indicating you're planning to leave the firm. Quite frankly, it shows a degree of discipline and organization often lacking among design professionals.
It's important that this be done above board and in a respectful manner. If your boss (and firm) are the least bit professional, they will understand your natural desire to accumulate appropriate materials for your professional portfolio. We've all done it and we always will. It's best to handle it in an overt, professional manner.
Good luck.
Quizzical, thanks for that response. I think I will just sit down with him and let him know this will be my standard operating practice from now on.
Careers - I have really enjoyed reading your hiring/ job search advice here, so thanks for that. I was planning on asking a particular client, for example, if he could speak to my skill and expertise relating complex structural ideas into feasible fabrication details using various software solutions. Or an engineer to speak to my performance collaborating with him, managing and developing drawing and quality control documents on one particular project.
Was thinking I would present these letters with hyperlinks embedded in the PDF that directs to the project on my website/ my firm's website/ the consultant's website and any media articles on it.
I am trying to be r really organized and precise about my portfolio and career documentation as I have spent 3 years in a nontraditional career path, not gaining idp core hours or experience in a true architecture office.
* oops, that was supposed to be Carerra.
Typing on the iphone
Letter of recommendation = terrible employee? I think you screwed up somewhere in that equation.
graduated - potential clients live for letters of recommendation. they want to work with someone they can trust.
quiz has the best approach - make it a part of your routine. i'd go a step further and share them with your current employer. if it's helping call attention to your performance in the eyes of THEIR clients, it can only help you be given more responsibility over projects.
absolutely do it as a general practice. i wish i'd gotten a few more before starting our firm. we definitely ask every client for one at the conclusion of the project (actually, we wait until they've moved in for a few months.)
Archanonymous and GraduatedLicensure, here is another point of view....when I was coming up I guess I never thought of this idea of collecting letters, but as time passed I naturally dropped-the-ball sometimes on things/projects, got crossways with people over little things, a law suite or two…..its going to happen….then there are the ass-holes you meet along the way. People have no compunction over saying something bad.
One time I picked up a whisper or two and thought “Jesus, what about all the good things I’ve done? The good projects? What about all the people that loved working with me and liked me and had no problem with me?” So I went into a scramble to collect and it helped the situation and me personally. Today these things can be put on a web page or on LinkedIn too….its pretty hard to believe a rumor when the facts and good stuff are staring them in the face-black and white.
5 Stars for the no-bullshit rule, I already commented on this.
Archanonymous, another idea you might consider is starting a FaceBook account. Build the whole thing around your career. Build the history there. None of this bull-shit, pissing cheer on each other kind of thing, a hard, serious professional page featuring your works, things you accomplish along the way, a problem you solved that day, a day-in-the-life….pictures of your present and past work and projects you are currently working on….things you are doing in the community. Draw in accolades that way. Here you just innocently invite people with a bunch of clicks, inviting people to follow you and comment. You don’t have to explain anything to anybody it’s just a party and everyone is invited. Your boss will love the exposure and the enthusiasm that is displayed.
Gregory Walker - I am actually pursuing some of my own small jobs (and won an $8k street-furniture design commission!!!) It will be the first project done under an llc I am starting for this kind of work and consulting. So it sound like getting these will not only help keep me gainfully employed and moving towards licensure, but will give me a good starting point when I am ready to put all my eggs in my own basket.
Carerra - That is an interesting thought. I have a LinkedIn, but it is not too user-friendly and I am not real into it. I do something similar with Instagram - a visual diary of sorts - but I had not thought of tailoring it to focus on only my career. My Instagram is almost only my own works, not things done professionally, so it would certainly give a different vibe.
Hello.
An employee is asking me to specifically put the a name of one of our clients on his recommendation letter (the one I am planning on writing for him). He happens to serve this client as one of our employees and he things its prestegious to have the clients name on his recommendation letter.
What's your take on that?
Sid.
What's the harm? Just include it. Unless the client wants to remain anonymous as the client of that particular project to the outside world of course.