Just wanted to get a view from Architects RE providing services to review the works of qualified building design practitioners. Of course I'm not talking about just stamping everything. I'm talking about fully complied works and if it doesn't meet any requirements/ standards and regulations then of course one will ensure amendments are made prior to sign off. Also I'm not suggesting that this is going to be the core service and completely abandon the general practice of producing your own works, but rather an option to expand the range of services and client base. What is everyone's thoughts?
curtkram
Jul 9, 14 9:13 am
why would an architect want a qualified building design practitioner to get design work instead of having said design work go to the architect?
Non Sequitur
Jul 9, 14 9:34 am
isn't "qualified building design practitioner" just architect spelled by someone who does not/can't have a license?
mightyaa
Jul 9, 14 10:14 am
I've seen this in practice where there's a design house (non-licensed custom home designers) who hired this architect required by the local architectural review committee (HOA run neighborhood). The architect reviewed, made redlines, and so forth. The design house incorporated those changes and the architect stamped the drawings. All perfectly legal, but close to the border of the license requirements where you must 'directly supervise'.
The rub. Obviously the fee charged for this kind of review agency type work isn't a full fee. There were problems, design problems, and a lawsuit ensued. Guess who's holding the liability bag? Hint; The same person who made the least fees on the project otherwise known as the licensed professional in charge. That's right; That architect. He took a half-million dollar hit for a thousand bucks.... well, not quite; He probably took a $10k deductible hit and insurance rate spike or was dropped.
jdparnell1218
Jul 9, 14 11:15 am
What constitutes a "qualified building design practitioners"?
Snoopy316
Jul 9, 14 5:53 pm
@curtkram, i'm not suggesting that by accepting the task means you will not be doing your own/other design work at all. As mentioned in the OP it's just a thought to expanding the service and client base. A job on the side concurrent to your own. Especially when the economy is not so good.
@non sequitur, that is correct. I didn't use the term "unlicensed Architect" because I knew it wasn't correct. I read somewhere in forums that people get over sensitive about the whole thing. I thought its either one's an Architect or not an Architect as there's no such thing as an unlicensed Architect.
@mightyaa, I see your point and yes, liability is always a factor to consider. This comes down to the risk assessment. It also comes down to the agreement between the Architect and the practicianer. If there were design problems during the process which leads to a law sue then obviously the reviewer/Architect wasn't doing his job properly which leads to negligence. This can also happen to his own work if that's the case. But of course I agree that if it's his own work then at least he have charged for the full fee. I read from a similar thread that an Architect charged $10,000 for a decent size job. One would think that for this type of fee it should allow him enough hours to carefully review the project inside out.
@jpparnell, I'm referring to those who have completed their degree in Architecture school and have been practicing building designing for many years. Those who are not yet registered to become a licensed architect or are in the process of doing it or they may never become registered.
Thank you all for your thoughts.
gruen
Jul 9, 14 7:16 pm
I would pick up a project after DD and do the CDs in my office plus a full code review. But nothing less. It's not worth it.
Janosh
Jul 9, 14 7:40 pm
What Gruen said. Anything short of that makes it very hard to demonstrate responsible control, meaning that you are in danger of getting fined/censured by your state board, or invalidating your professional liability coverage in the event of a claim.
gruen
Jul 9, 14 9:01 pm
Ideally do the code review after SD and monitor the project through DD before the handoff. But we're not talking about smart professionals here are we? We are talking about cheapskates trying to circumvent the law.
Jul 10, 14 1:51 am
I'm a building designer wich is one of the title used for unlicensed design professionals designing exempt buildings.
I have to ask, why is the building designer having the architect sign off. If the building designer is NCBDC certified... why not use the NCBDC's CPBD stamp seal and signature? On exempt buildings, anyone can stamp and seal. Anyone can affix a seal provide the seal's design does not resemble the seal of a licensed profession in a way that would reasonably cause misrepresentation. Of course, an unlicensed person may not use their stamp/seal in lieu of an licensed design professional's stamp where a stamp/seal of a licensed design professional is required.
When a licensed professional is required, it should be known and clearly ascertained before you draw one single line. Snoopy, remember, you should always perform level of pre-design services and one of the mandatory things you should ALWAYS do is investigate whether or not the project is going to need an architect or engineer's stamp. This means, gathering regulatory requirements. If you have an architect as a consultant then what you need to do is have this stuff outlined in a WRITTEN AND SIGNED CONTRACT.
If you need an architect to stamp yours drawings so to speak, then the relationship should be similar to that of the relationship between an Architect and an IDP Intern / Draftsman because in that regard, the architect would be performing the architectural services and you'll be providing the drafting and related services of preparing the work under his/her supervision from the beginning of schematic design through to completion of project.
In other words, you are forming a two-way contract of services. You serve the architect as an independent contractor similar to a contracted employee adding to their staff and they in return are reciprocating the supervision and responsible control oversight services. Therefore, you serve as the "Architect's hand" but they serve as the eyes and brain controlling the show.
Otherwise, if the building is exempt, man up and do the work yourself and assume full responsibility.
As a building designer, I do the work myself.
A qualified building design professional is really just another way of saying a "competent building design professional that can legally do the work. Where I am, we have exempt buildings and there is plenty of such projects.
A question that I will raise is why not form a business partnership with the architect? I know a few states prohibit architects partnering with non-architects. Other than that, it might be better off to partner in some form of business entity that provides for limited liability protections.
In most jurisdiction, if a stamp is not required then you should not need an architect's stamp on an exempt building as more you'll need an engineer's stamp and be better served with the consulting engineers. If you need an architect to review, stamp and sign your work then you probably shouldn't be offering or engaging in building design. Just a thought. It would also be indicative that you are NOT a qualified building design professional.
You may have to think about that. Most architects won't do it because they don't gain from it. Most states won't allow an architect to simply review and stamp drawings prepared by an unlicensed person if they weren't involved in the supervision and responsible control over all drawings, specificatons and other documents throughout the ENTIRE design phase.
As a general rule, you are not suppose to accept a project that is going to require an architect's stamp. Once you know that the project is going to require an architect, you are suppose to deny accepting the project as you are suppose to know this before signing into a contract with a client. Otherwise, you are suppose to terminate your involvement in the project.
That is why it raises questions.
I understand the desire to involve architects as a way to bring them work. If you are an independent contractor then you are legally liable as well as the architect. It is called joint-liability. Of course, you are liable to your part and they are liable for their part. Liability distribution would consider things such as contractual terms.
The question is why would an architect want to assume the big end of the liability if they get the small end of pay? They would not touch it with a 1000 ft. pole if they have a brain cell in their head and leave the liability on you.
People who are not willing to accept responsibility to their liability then they should be in business.
Snoopy, why don't you simply prepare the work. Have your name and information identified and sign off on it?
Are you NCBDC certified? If so, you can use that stamp/seal on exempt buildings that doesn't require an architect or engineer stamp.
Snoopy316
Jul 10, 14 4:34 am
Richard, you provided some very useful information and it sure had me thinking. I'm not a building design professional, I'm actually a licensed Architect. I don't know why people assumed that im a building designer. Now before everyone starts shooting me down, the reason I needed opinions from different people here is because I've recently been engaged by an old work college and a very good friend who now runs a medium size building design practice. Anyway I think I know what kind of answer to give him. Thanks
Non Sequitur
Jul 10, 14 8:17 am
Snoop, my first ever office job was in a 2 person office where one of our main clients was a long-retired architect. He would still however attract projects which he could no-longer stamp thus we would translate his sketches into CD. I remember generating many other projects with the same clients afterwards.
Jul 10, 14 11:57 am
Snoopy,
If the person needs an architect stamp on the set of plans for whatever reason, you should be involved throughout the entire design process in substantially the same manner you would be with an employee. He doesn't have to be working in your office but you need to be largely involved to not run afoul with your state licensing board and administrative rules and statutes that applies to your license.
Oregon for example has administrative rules regarding how architects much keep a good documentation record when dealing with employees and other people from whom that does not work directly in your office.
There should be regular meetings in person. He should regularly submit to review through the process and you regularly review and redline. Bottom line is that you should be familiar with the project where the work is being performed by someone who doesn't work in your office to the same or substantially similar degree as someone who would be working in your office.
If you are going to have oversight on the work, be sure to have sufficient supervision. the extent of supervision by the scope of work but don't be less than a reasonal standard of professional care.
In most cases, he should be able to do the work himself. It could be where the fellow wants to complete IDP hours so he wants to become licensed some day. If that is the case, treat it similarly to an IDP intern who works in your office but different enough that it complies as an independent contractor relationship. If he wants IDP training hours for it, he should consult with NCARB to get clarification on that.
Just don't let yourself be screwed over and also make sure you are paid reasonably and make sure you check the plans thoroughly to eliminate errors & omissions so that you keep it in check.
If the person does not seek to be a licensed architect in the future, he could proceed with NCBDC certification and therefore would be a certified building designer which he can make a good case to a building official or HOA to accepting the plans being that the person isn't just some fly by night person. There are options. As a building designer, I typically do my own work and submit the plans but I do recognize those cases. As suggested earlier, he should ascertain if an architect or engineer is needed and get that sorted out before contracts.
If I need an architect to stamp a set of drawing, an architect should be brought on board from the Pre-Design to completed project.
Snoopy316
Jul 10, 14 7:44 pm
Thanks for the advice Richard. I guess my friend and I chose a different path. I guess he has his reasons not to become a licensed Architect. He was more senior than I am when we were working at the same office. Even though the company we used to worked for wasn't an "Architects" film we do most exempt projects and some non exempt. Our boss at the time had a licensed Architect friend who occasional supervise, review and stamp his projects if it ever does require an Architect's stamp. We don't know what their agreement is as we were only students at the time. I thought if we are going to go into some arrangement I better get some good advice and do things the right and legal.
Non Sequitur,
When you say that the older architect no longer licensed do you mean he has retired?
Snoopy316
Jul 10, 14 7:46 pm
Oops, ignore that question. You said long retired.
Jul 10, 14 8:40 pm
Snoopy,
Fair enough. I understand there are lots of reasons for why people go the paths they went. Either way, just make sure you work out the details so neither of you get shafted. Since he is fairly experienced, I would say the degree of supervision and oversight can be less than a fresh out of college intern. Think like a long experienced project designer/manager who worked in a firm for many years but never chosen to get licensed. You have to provide supervision and control as required by law but the level of supervision and control oversight maybe minimal as you would not need to hand hold the person as much as a young intern.
Carrera
Jul 16, 14 5:39 pm
Are we talking houses and strip mall build-outs? If so an unlicensed person can do these in my State without a seal. It depends on licensure/seal laws in your particular state. Follow gruen, its ok for “designers” to do work but if they want a seal you have to do the CD’s. If not, stay away. All this stuff is are cheap developers cutting corners at your expense. Just remember if something goes wrong you’ll be “The Daddy”.
Snoopy316
Jul 17, 14 5:31 pm
Im talking more about high rise residential or commercial buildings.
"IF something goes wrong" I guess it's all about the risk assessment. Architects have always been known to be paranoid by the fear of being sued. This fear is mainly driven by the insurance company who likes to limit what architects can do. If we do what insurance company tell us not to do then we might as well shut shop. What happened to "Everyone need to take a little bit of risk in life to be successful" concept?
gruen
Jul 17, 14 8:16 pm
Things do go wrong. Things go wrong in every project actually. So, yes, you do need to cover yourself, because occasionally you'll be sued. Do you want it to be that one time when you rubberstamped someone else's building for a tiny fee?
Snoopy316
Jul 17, 14 11:50 pm
Not worth it for a tiny fee of course. I'm referring more to about 33% of the fee.
gruen
Jul 18, 14 9:38 am
If its 33% why not go ahead and do the CDs? Really, most people aren't going to pay 33% for a stamp, because they have to pay someone to do the CDs.
Wilma Buttfit
Jul 18, 14 9:47 am
I'm not licensed and not that I do this a lot, but I have a project I'm designing but I am going to turn the project over to the architect somewhere in design development. The architect that stamps it does the CD's. It doesn't really work otherwise. We both have independent relationships with the client. You would never just stamp someone else's work, especially "fully compiled". In other words, do the CD's, agree with gruen^.
Carrera
Jul 18, 14 10:45 am
Snoopy316, I think your original post may be partly why you are not getting support here. When you say “….review the works of qualified building design practitioners….” It has a little smell to it.
It is OK to review anyone’s work, just don’t seal it. Forget the insurance companies; it’s just plain illegal, at least in my State. Peer review is a great thing to do and not done enough.
It’s Ok to collaborate with unlicensed people. I had associations over the years like this were we did the CD’s and sealed. Can be a good source of work and pays some bills. I respect Richard’s comments and he makes some excellent points, but commissions come mostly from relationships and if the unlicensed guy has the relationship he gets the job. A lot of jobs spring from interior designers….one thing leads to another and all of a sudden he/she is the coxswain. This is a changing world and there are all kinds of murky things out there, not everything has a standard AIA contract attached to it. I think Snoopy is just picking up some things like this in his net and seeking to figure out what to do with it. It’s Ok not to throw everything back.
Snoopy316
Jul 20, 14 6:08 pm
Thanks all for the feeds. I have decided to negotiate and try to pick up the job at CD's.
By the way Carerra, in another post and I can't remember which one as I can't find it anymore. You mentioned that you became president of a development company at 24 and became a millionaire by the age of 30. Can I ask if you started out from scratch or it's a familiy business handed over to you?
Carrera
Jul 21, 14 1:34 am
Snoopy316, be glad to answer, and it is a complement to have you ask. I have posted some hints elsewhere but here it is. First, it was not handed or inherited. I came from a blue collar family background, not poor. Second, you need to know that I was a ball-breaker and a boy wonder at drawing. Also you need to know that I had OCD (didn’t know it as a “condition” then). If someone gave me something to do I would obsess over it, just kill it! I was cranking out small projects for builders before I graduated.
I soon got a reputation around town that I was one of the best and a go-to-guy, not withstanding that I was just a kid. Working for architects I started a family and needed more money. I saw an ad in the local paper by a contractor/developer (there is a big desire here too to become an architect/builder, which is another story) and I aggressively pursued the ad. Got the interview. This guy was a multi millionaire at 35! I gave him my pitch and he grinned through the whole thing. He couldn’t believe that this little twerp knew all this stuff. I will never forget when I was done he sat back, put his cigar in his mouth and said “well the proof is in the pudding” and offered me the job (his unlicensed personal architect) at twice the salary I was making. That was the start.
He saw something in me and just let me soar. He’d pile it on and I’d blow it out. I didn’t let anything get in my way, if I didn’t know something I would just obsess over it and figure it out. He was liking it and kept adding layer upon layer of responsibility and I would just grab it. He one time offered to hire help for me and I told him to give me the money and I would handle it. He did. I worked almost 7 days and most nights. He once sent my wife and me on a vacation to Hawaii in appreciation. Soon we were inseparable. He took me everywhere, had lunch together almost every day. He really trusted me, and the money kept coming.
it was not long and then a break did come. Sadly, he developed a nervous condition and was having trouble coping. He took my wife and me out to his club and announced that he was making me president of the whole thing. Not vice president, president. We had a full bid/build GC operation, a development arm and we were the largest commercial property owner in the city. I grabbed it! Not really long after that he took us out again and announced that he had to retire (at 40!) and wanted me to buy the business (paid from future profits, no cash required). Again, I grabbed it! The rest is a very long story. Yes I got a break but I created the environment that brought on the break.
Not bad for a guy who is dyslectic and can not read or spell. I fear that this may all sound verbose but it is meant to be a lesson to all that will listen that anything is possible. I just didn’t ever, ever give up. I just created the environment that I was the go-to-guy for everything and everything came to me.
Sadly, I broke down too several years ago and had to retire. It all was not without pain, lots of pain, failures too, but I am spending my time now looking back and trying to find ways help others find their way and avoid the pain. Carl and I remain very close friends to this day.
Thanks for the platform.
Snoopy316
Jul 21, 14 3:48 am
Carrera, thank you for sharing such an inspiring story. I guess you probably have already figured out why I am interested to know. I have a goal and that's to be successful AND earn my first million by the age of 40, and what other ways to do it than to do your own development. I made that goal when I was still in high school. How silly of me at the time. I'm now in my thirties and I'm no where near reaching that goal. But like you said anything is possible.
"don't worry about hiring another person, just give me the money and I'll handle it" I respect the fact that you are an Architect and you are also not ashame of earning extra money and telling people about it.
Is Carl the guy who made you president? If you don't mind me asking, you said sadly you broke down too. What broke you down? The overwhelming workload? You didn't lose everything in a failed investment did you? And what advice do you have for those who are in similar level to avoid pain?
I appreciate any advice.
Carrera
Jul 21, 14 12:59 pm
Snoopy316, yes it was Carl.
It was the OCD and its related demons that caught up to me. OCD is like pouring gasoline on a campfire. I credit it for almost everything. My OCD was totally work related then. I was once asked if I took illegal drugs…people couldn’t figure out where all the energy/motivation was coming from. Much, much later, near the end it turned on me, it changed. I started obsessing about people and relationships, thinking that people were talking about me or plotting against me. I sought help and ended up on meds…it dummed me up and shut off my drive. I stopped developing completely. Luckily it happened at the end and I was financially secure enough to just stop and get off the train.
Failed investments? Many along the way. If you are going to do this thing recognize that it is inevitable. Better to have a lot of small stuff like I did where no one thing can bring everything down. Could write a book on this subject.
Pain comes from frustration, wanting to pass a car and never getting a good opportunity. Feeling stuck behind a slow car. It’s all through many of the forums. Best advice is to never ever, ever give up. If you want to get somewhere or want something take another road, seek out other opportunities, think of innovative ways to solve the problem….giving up is not an option. I sometimes want to post elsewhere “For God sake do something!” Lamenting gets you nowhere and creates pain. I can't tell you how many times I was told "NO" in my life. No to me was "Go Time"!
Carrera
Jul 21, 14 2:02 pm
Snoopy316, wondered what your situation was and at what stage your development dreams are in. Just starting/dreaming?
This is unsolicited but architects have an advantage over developers and real estate guys in development. We have imaginations! Look for things nobody else wants. Find land that can’t seem to get developed, sloping sites, odd shapes, the last site in a development. Also look for distressed properties, properties that are all fucked up functionally or design wise that at present nobody wants to occupy or be associated with. Go for the hard stuff, you have the skill to solve problems, add value and that adds equity. I always went with the hard stuff, hell the real estate agents in town would swap-up the easy stuff before it ever hit the market. Also remember that drawings are equity too, it’s a little tricky to apply but it’s in your quiver.
One example, I have many more. I found a site on one of the busiest streets in town. Nobody knew what to do with it. It was too tiny. There wasn’t any room for parking. It just sat there for years. Then I got the idea to build a raised office building. I built a second floor only structure and put the parking underneath. Man the real estate guys hated me for that one.
Carrera
Jul 21, 14 2:18 pm
Seems like your forum has expired interest, feel I can help more at a different forum. Why don’t you start a new forum titled Architects as Contractors or Developers and see where it goes? See you there.
pale shelter
Jul 21, 14 2:55 pm
"...start a new forum titled Architects as Contractors or Developers and see where it goes".
By all means please do Snoopy! Some will complain on here that perhaps there's already too much of that topic; screw it. Carrera is a welcome addition to this forum and although I rarely post; I soak up the great advice and knowledge provided by people who have done and been through it all! - ex: carrera.
Snoopy - I'm with you; wish to break off and start with a small development in my city asap.. after this knowledge gaining / self study period. My background is managing/designing $30M multifamily projects. I'm just hoping to start with a 4-plex rehab or go small vertical townhome condos / 6-10 units. -Starting to talk with the right people; but finding the property and getting that first deal will be the challenge over this near/mid term. I don't know any other architects - of the hundreds in my city - that have mastered the architect/developer/contractor enterprise. It is a rare breed.
pale shelter
Jul 21, 14 3:53 pm
Carrera: I'd be curious of what size / population your community is and the implications of development in various upper and mid-market cities - like where I'm at; Twin Cities / midwest. A developer just proposed a 18 unit condo building in a decent neighborhood 3 miles from downtown - lowest number of units I've seen for new dev - most are 40 minimum and top out at 200. The sales prices are $700k to $1.2M which equate to $450/SF - $500/SF. This is just near crazy but common. I'm seeing $200/SF sales prices in Cleveland for the same top end quality. We poor architects have a problem in finding the financing; and don't have the networks of high wealth individuals to invest. The developer of this 18unit condo is a semi-wealthy commercial land owner.... where do we find the investors / the funding ? (always the problem and the first hurdle, I know!)...
Snoopy316
Jul 21, 14 5:45 pm
Architects as well as contractors and developers. Starting forum now. See you there.
Carrera
Jul 21, 14 6:03 pm
Pale Shelter, thanks for the encouragement! I appreciate it and I will continue where appropriate. Don’t be shy about posting, your function here is to feed the question threads, push discussions in new directions where appropriate and learn and soak up….its not only helpful to you but it benefits others too.
The community I live in and grew up in is about 500,000. I served other communities too, some smaller some larger. Right here, now at home, the population has stalled and I don’t see it improving much in my remaining life. To develop in a community it needs to be growing, you need people, families and business to move into a community and blow air into the balloon and make it bigger. You can’t build even a 4-plex without someone to buy it or move into it. Of course people and businesses do move laterally and up so opportunities do still exist.
New construction and development gets hurt by these recessions. It slams down hard on real estate values making it hard for new construction to compete. The cost of new construction never decreases during these events, they just keep going up. I’m looking at moving and you would think that a guy like me would design/build my own new home, but hell no. Why? Why would I want to spend $250+/SF to build new when I can by old and rehab for less than $150/SF. These things of course run in cycles and historically over time demand for the old homes lead the line on the graph and as time passes values of the old go up and before you know it it becomes more viable to build new than buy old. The volume of old too is still great and it’s going to take a lot of time to absorb this inventory. Its happening but its slow.
This applies to commercial real estate as well. Why would a business look to be in a new building at $18/SF when they can easily find something old at $10/SF.? It’s the recession causing this.
Exceptions abound, I’m shocked by pockets of new expensive homes going up in my area but there are always young fillys with old husbands looking for new granite countertops and islands in the kitchen. These people are not buying with their heads their buying with their genitals.
Just wanted to get a view from Architects RE providing services to review the works of qualified building design practitioners. Of course I'm not talking about just stamping everything. I'm talking about fully complied works and if it doesn't meet any requirements/ standards and regulations then of course one will ensure amendments are made prior to sign off. Also I'm not suggesting that this is going to be the core service and completely abandon the general practice of producing your own works, but rather an option to expand the range of services and client base. What is everyone's thoughts?
why would an architect want a qualified building design practitioner to get design work instead of having said design work go to the architect?
isn't "qualified building design practitioner" just architect spelled by someone who does not/can't have a license?
I've seen this in practice where there's a design house (non-licensed custom home designers) who hired this architect required by the local architectural review committee (HOA run neighborhood). The architect reviewed, made redlines, and so forth. The design house incorporated those changes and the architect stamped the drawings. All perfectly legal, but close to the border of the license requirements where you must 'directly supervise'.
The rub. Obviously the fee charged for this kind of review agency type work isn't a full fee. There were problems, design problems, and a lawsuit ensued. Guess who's holding the liability bag? Hint; The same person who made the least fees on the project otherwise known as the licensed professional in charge. That's right; That architect. He took a half-million dollar hit for a thousand bucks.... well, not quite; He probably took a $10k deductible hit and insurance rate spike or was dropped.
What constitutes a "qualified building design practitioners"?
@curtkram, i'm not suggesting that by accepting the task means you will not be doing your own/other design work at all. As mentioned in the OP it's just a thought to expanding the service and client base. A job on the side concurrent to your own. Especially when the economy is not so good.
@non sequitur, that is correct. I didn't use the term "unlicensed Architect" because I knew it wasn't correct. I read somewhere in forums that people get over sensitive about the whole thing. I thought its either one's an Architect or not an Architect as there's no such thing as an unlicensed Architect.
@mightyaa, I see your point and yes, liability is always a factor to consider. This comes down to the risk assessment. It also comes down to the agreement between the Architect and the practicianer. If there were design problems during the process which leads to a law sue then obviously the reviewer/Architect wasn't doing his job properly which leads to negligence. This can also happen to his own work if that's the case. But of course I agree that if it's his own work then at least he have charged for the full fee. I read from a similar thread that an Architect charged $10,000 for a decent size job. One would think that for this type of fee it should allow him enough hours to carefully review the project inside out.
@jpparnell, I'm referring to those who have completed their degree in Architecture school and have been practicing building designing for many years. Those who are not yet registered to become a licensed architect or are in the process of doing it or they may never become registered.
Thank you all for your thoughts.
I would pick up a project after DD and do the CDs in my office plus a full code review. But nothing less. It's not worth it.
What Gruen said. Anything short of that makes it very hard to demonstrate responsible control, meaning that you are in danger of getting fined/censured by your state board, or invalidating your professional liability coverage in the event of a claim.
Ideally do the code review after SD and monitor the project through DD before the handoff. But we're not talking about smart professionals here are we? We are talking about cheapskates trying to circumvent the law.
I'm a building designer wich is one of the title used for unlicensed design professionals designing exempt buildings.
I have to ask, why is the building designer having the architect sign off. If the building designer is NCBDC certified... why not use the NCBDC's CPBD stamp seal and signature? On exempt buildings, anyone can stamp and seal. Anyone can affix a seal provide the seal's design does not resemble the seal of a licensed profession in a way that would reasonably cause misrepresentation. Of course, an unlicensed person may not use their stamp/seal in lieu of an licensed design professional's stamp where a stamp/seal of a licensed design professional is required.
When a licensed professional is required, it should be known and clearly ascertained before you draw one single line. Snoopy, remember, you should always perform level of pre-design services and one of the mandatory things you should ALWAYS do is investigate whether or not the project is going to need an architect or engineer's stamp. This means, gathering regulatory requirements. If you have an architect as a consultant then what you need to do is have this stuff outlined in a WRITTEN AND SIGNED CONTRACT.
If you need an architect to stamp yours drawings so to speak, then the relationship should be similar to that of the relationship between an Architect and an IDP Intern / Draftsman because in that regard, the architect would be performing the architectural services and you'll be providing the drafting and related services of preparing the work under his/her supervision from the beginning of schematic design through to completion of project.
In other words, you are forming a two-way contract of services. You serve the architect as an independent contractor similar to a contracted employee adding to their staff and they in return are reciprocating the supervision and responsible control oversight services. Therefore, you serve as the "Architect's hand" but they serve as the eyes and brain controlling the show.
Otherwise, if the building is exempt, man up and do the work yourself and assume full responsibility.
As a building designer, I do the work myself.
A qualified building design professional is really just another way of saying a "competent building design professional that can legally do the work. Where I am, we have exempt buildings and there is plenty of such projects.
A question that I will raise is why not form a business partnership with the architect? I know a few states prohibit architects partnering with non-architects. Other than that, it might be better off to partner in some form of business entity that provides for limited liability protections.
In most jurisdiction, if a stamp is not required then you should not need an architect's stamp on an exempt building as more you'll need an engineer's stamp and be better served with the consulting engineers. If you need an architect to review, stamp and sign your work then you probably shouldn't be offering or engaging in building design. Just a thought. It would also be indicative that you are NOT a qualified building design professional.
You may have to think about that. Most architects won't do it because they don't gain from it. Most states won't allow an architect to simply review and stamp drawings prepared by an unlicensed person if they weren't involved in the supervision and responsible control over all drawings, specificatons and other documents throughout the ENTIRE design phase.
As a general rule, you are not suppose to accept a project that is going to require an architect's stamp. Once you know that the project is going to require an architect, you are suppose to deny accepting the project as you are suppose to know this before signing into a contract with a client. Otherwise, you are suppose to terminate your involvement in the project.
That is why it raises questions.
I understand the desire to involve architects as a way to bring them work. If you are an independent contractor then you are legally liable as well as the architect. It is called joint-liability. Of course, you are liable to your part and they are liable for their part. Liability distribution would consider things such as contractual terms.
The question is why would an architect want to assume the big end of the liability if they get the small end of pay? They would not touch it with a 1000 ft. pole if they have a brain cell in their head and leave the liability on you.
People who are not willing to accept responsibility to their liability then they should be in business.
Snoopy, why don't you simply prepare the work. Have your name and information identified and sign off on it?
Are you NCBDC certified? If so, you can use that stamp/seal on exempt buildings that doesn't require an architect or engineer stamp.
Richard, you provided some very useful information and it sure had me thinking. I'm not a building design professional, I'm actually a licensed Architect. I don't know why people assumed that im a building designer. Now before everyone starts shooting me down, the reason I needed opinions from different people here is because I've recently been engaged by an old work college and a very good friend who now runs a medium size building design practice. Anyway I think I know what kind of answer to give him. Thanks
Snoop, my first ever office job was in a 2 person office where one of our main clients was a long-retired architect. He would still however attract projects which he could no-longer stamp thus we would translate his sketches into CD. I remember generating many other projects with the same clients afterwards.
Snoopy,
If the person needs an architect stamp on the set of plans for whatever reason, you should be involved throughout the entire design process in substantially the same manner you would be with an employee. He doesn't have to be working in your office but you need to be largely involved to not run afoul with your state licensing board and administrative rules and statutes that applies to your license.
Oregon for example has administrative rules regarding how architects much keep a good documentation record when dealing with employees and other people from whom that does not work directly in your office.
There should be regular meetings in person. He should regularly submit to review through the process and you regularly review and redline. Bottom line is that you should be familiar with the project where the work is being performed by someone who doesn't work in your office to the same or substantially similar degree as someone who would be working in your office.
If you are going to have oversight on the work, be sure to have sufficient supervision. the extent of supervision by the scope of work but don't be less than a reasonal standard of professional care.
In most cases, he should be able to do the work himself. It could be where the fellow wants to complete IDP hours so he wants to become licensed some day. If that is the case, treat it similarly to an IDP intern who works in your office but different enough that it complies as an independent contractor relationship. If he wants IDP training hours for it, he should consult with NCARB to get clarification on that.
Just don't let yourself be screwed over and also make sure you are paid reasonably and make sure you check the plans thoroughly to eliminate errors & omissions so that you keep it in check.
If the person does not seek to be a licensed architect in the future, he could proceed with NCBDC certification and therefore would be a certified building designer which he can make a good case to a building official or HOA to accepting the plans being that the person isn't just some fly by night person. There are options. As a building designer, I typically do my own work and submit the plans but I do recognize those cases. As suggested earlier, he should ascertain if an architect or engineer is needed and get that sorted out before contracts.
If I need an architect to stamp a set of drawing, an architect should be brought on board from the Pre-Design to completed project.
Thanks for the advice Richard. I guess my friend and I chose a different path. I guess he has his reasons not to become a licensed Architect. He was more senior than I am when we were working at the same office. Even though the company we used to worked for wasn't an "Architects" film we do most exempt projects and some non exempt. Our boss at the time had a licensed Architect friend who occasional supervise, review and stamp his projects if it ever does require an Architect's stamp. We don't know what their agreement is as we were only students at the time. I thought if we are going to go into some arrangement I better get some good advice and do things the right and legal.
Non Sequitur,
When you say that the older architect no longer licensed do you mean he has retired?
Oops, ignore that question. You said long retired.
Snoopy,
Fair enough. I understand there are lots of reasons for why people go the paths they went. Either way, just make sure you work out the details so neither of you get shafted. Since he is fairly experienced, I would say the degree of supervision and oversight can be less than a fresh out of college intern. Think like a long experienced project designer/manager who worked in a firm for many years but never chosen to get licensed. You have to provide supervision and control as required by law but the level of supervision and control oversight maybe minimal as you would not need to hand hold the person as much as a young intern.
Are we talking houses and strip mall build-outs? If so an unlicensed person can do these in my State without a seal. It depends on licensure/seal laws in your particular state. Follow gruen, its ok for “designers” to do work but if they want a seal you have to do the CD’s. If not, stay away. All this stuff is are cheap developers cutting corners at your expense. Just remember if something goes wrong you’ll be “The Daddy”.
Im talking more about high rise residential or commercial buildings.
"IF something goes wrong" I guess it's all about the risk assessment. Architects have always been known to be paranoid by the fear of being sued. This fear is mainly driven by the insurance company who likes to limit what architects can do. If we do what insurance company tell us not to do then we might as well shut shop. What happened to "Everyone need to take a little bit of risk in life to be successful" concept?
Things do go wrong. Things go wrong in every project actually. So, yes, you do need to cover yourself, because occasionally you'll be sued. Do you want it to be that one time when you rubberstamped someone else's building for a tiny fee?
Not worth it for a tiny fee of course. I'm referring more to about 33% of the fee.
If its 33% why not go ahead and do the CDs? Really, most people aren't going to pay 33% for a stamp, because they have to pay someone to do the CDs.
I'm not licensed and not that I do this a lot, but I have a project I'm designing but I am going to turn the project over to the architect somewhere in design development. The architect that stamps it does the CD's. It doesn't really work otherwise. We both have independent relationships with the client. You would never just stamp someone else's work, especially "fully compiled". In other words, do the CD's, agree with gruen^.
Snoopy316, I think your original post may be partly why you are not getting support here. When you say “….review the works of qualified building design practitioners….” It has a little smell to it.
It is OK to review anyone’s work, just don’t seal it. Forget the insurance companies; it’s just plain illegal, at least in my State. Peer review is a great thing to do and not done enough.
It’s Ok to collaborate with unlicensed people. I had associations over the years like this were we did the CD’s and sealed. Can be a good source of work and pays some bills. I respect Richard’s comments and he makes some excellent points, but commissions come mostly from relationships and if the unlicensed guy has the relationship he gets the job. A lot of jobs spring from interior designers….one thing leads to another and all of a sudden he/she is the coxswain. This is a changing world and there are all kinds of murky things out there, not everything has a standard AIA contract attached to it. I think Snoopy is just picking up some things like this in his net and seeking to figure out what to do with it. It’s Ok not to throw everything back.
Thanks all for the feeds. I have decided to negotiate and try to pick up the job at CD's.
By the way Carerra, in another post and I can't remember which one as I can't find it anymore. You mentioned that you became president of a development company at 24 and became a millionaire by the age of 30. Can I ask if you started out from scratch or it's a familiy business handed over to you?
Snoopy316, be glad to answer, and it is a complement to have you ask. I have posted some hints elsewhere but here it is. First, it was not handed or inherited. I came from a blue collar family background, not poor. Second, you need to know that I was a ball-breaker and a boy wonder at drawing. Also you need to know that I had OCD (didn’t know it as a “condition” then). If someone gave me something to do I would obsess over it, just kill it! I was cranking out small projects for builders before I graduated.
I soon got a reputation around town that I was one of the best and a go-to-guy, not withstanding that I was just a kid. Working for architects I started a family and needed more money. I saw an ad in the local paper by a contractor/developer (there is a big desire here too to become an architect/builder, which is another story) and I aggressively pursued the ad. Got the interview. This guy was a multi millionaire at 35! I gave him my pitch and he grinned through the whole thing. He couldn’t believe that this little twerp knew all this stuff. I will never forget when I was done he sat back, put his cigar in his mouth and said “well the proof is in the pudding” and offered me the job (his unlicensed personal architect) at twice the salary I was making. That was the start.
He saw something in me and just let me soar. He’d pile it on and I’d blow it out. I didn’t let anything get in my way, if I didn’t know something I would just obsess over it and figure it out. He was liking it and kept adding layer upon layer of responsibility and I would just grab it. He one time offered to hire help for me and I told him to give me the money and I would handle it. He did. I worked almost 7 days and most nights. He once sent my wife and me on a vacation to Hawaii in appreciation. Soon we were inseparable. He took me everywhere, had lunch together almost every day. He really trusted me, and the money kept coming.
it was not long and then a break did come. Sadly, he developed a nervous condition and was having trouble coping. He took my wife and me out to his club and announced that he was making me president of the whole thing. Not vice president, president. We had a full bid/build GC operation, a development arm and we were the largest commercial property owner in the city. I grabbed it! Not really long after that he took us out again and announced that he had to retire (at 40!) and wanted me to buy the business (paid from future profits, no cash required). Again, I grabbed it! The rest is a very long story. Yes I got a break but I created the environment that brought on the break.
Not bad for a guy who is dyslectic and can not read or spell. I fear that this may all sound verbose but it is meant to be a lesson to all that will listen that anything is possible. I just didn’t ever, ever give up. I just created the environment that I was the go-to-guy for everything and everything came to me.
Sadly, I broke down too several years ago and had to retire. It all was not without pain, lots of pain, failures too, but I am spending my time now looking back and trying to find ways help others find their way and avoid the pain. Carl and I remain very close friends to this day.
Thanks for the platform.
Carrera, thank you for sharing such an inspiring story. I guess you probably have already figured out why I am interested to know. I have a goal and that's to be successful AND earn my first million by the age of 40, and what other ways to do it than to do your own development. I made that goal when I was still in high school. How silly of me at the time. I'm now in my thirties and I'm no where near reaching that goal. But like you said anything is possible.
"don't worry about hiring another person, just give me the money and I'll handle it" I respect the fact that you are an Architect and you are also not ashame of earning extra money and telling people about it.
Is Carl the guy who made you president? If you don't mind me asking, you said sadly you broke down too. What broke you down? The overwhelming workload? You didn't lose everything in a failed investment did you? And what advice do you have for those who are in similar level to avoid pain?
I appreciate any advice.
Snoopy316, yes it was Carl.
It was the OCD and its related demons that caught up to me. OCD is like pouring gasoline on a campfire. I credit it for almost everything. My OCD was totally work related then. I was once asked if I took illegal drugs…people couldn’t figure out where all the energy/motivation was coming from. Much, much later, near the end it turned on me, it changed. I started obsessing about people and relationships, thinking that people were talking about me or plotting against me. I sought help and ended up on meds…it dummed me up and shut off my drive. I stopped developing completely. Luckily it happened at the end and I was financially secure enough to just stop and get off the train.
Failed investments? Many along the way. If you are going to do this thing recognize that it is inevitable. Better to have a lot of small stuff like I did where no one thing can bring everything down. Could write a book on this subject.
Pain comes from frustration, wanting to pass a car and never getting a good opportunity. Feeling stuck behind a slow car. It’s all through many of the forums. Best advice is to never ever, ever give up. If you want to get somewhere or want something take another road, seek out other opportunities, think of innovative ways to solve the problem….giving up is not an option. I sometimes want to post elsewhere “For God sake do something!” Lamenting gets you nowhere and creates pain. I can't tell you how many times I was told "NO" in my life. No to me was "Go Time"!
Snoopy316, wondered what your situation was and at what stage your development dreams are in. Just starting/dreaming?
This is unsolicited but architects have an advantage over developers and real estate guys in development. We have imaginations! Look for things nobody else wants. Find land that can’t seem to get developed, sloping sites, odd shapes, the last site in a development. Also look for distressed properties, properties that are all fucked up functionally or design wise that at present nobody wants to occupy or be associated with. Go for the hard stuff, you have the skill to solve problems, add value and that adds equity. I always went with the hard stuff, hell the real estate agents in town would swap-up the easy stuff before it ever hit the market. Also remember that drawings are equity too, it’s a little tricky to apply but it’s in your quiver.
One example, I have many more. I found a site on one of the busiest streets in town. Nobody knew what to do with it. It was too tiny. There wasn’t any room for parking. It just sat there for years. Then I got the idea to build a raised office building. I built a second floor only structure and put the parking underneath. Man the real estate guys hated me for that one.
Seems like your forum has expired interest, feel I can help more at a different forum. Why don’t you start a new forum titled Architects as Contractors or Developers and see where it goes? See you there.
"...start a new forum titled Architects as Contractors or Developers and see where it goes".
By all means please do Snoopy! Some will complain on here that perhaps there's already too much of that topic; screw it. Carrera is a welcome addition to this forum and although I rarely post; I soak up the great advice and knowledge provided by people who have done and been through it all! - ex: carrera.
Snoopy - I'm with you; wish to break off and start with a small development in my city asap.. after this knowledge gaining / self study period. My background is managing/designing $30M multifamily projects. I'm just hoping to start with a 4-plex rehab or go small vertical townhome condos / 6-10 units. -Starting to talk with the right people; but finding the property and getting that first deal will be the challenge over this near/mid term. I don't know any other architects - of the hundreds in my city - that have mastered the architect/developer/contractor enterprise. It is a rare breed.
Carrera: I'd be curious of what size / population your community is and the implications of development in various upper and mid-market cities - like where I'm at; Twin Cities / midwest. A developer just proposed a 18 unit condo building in a decent neighborhood 3 miles from downtown - lowest number of units I've seen for new dev - most are 40 minimum and top out at 200. The sales prices are $700k to $1.2M which equate to $450/SF - $500/SF. This is just near crazy but common. I'm seeing $200/SF sales prices in Cleveland for the same top end quality. We poor architects have a problem in finding the financing; and don't have the networks of high wealth individuals to invest. The developer of this 18unit condo is a semi-wealthy commercial land owner.... where do we find the investors / the funding ? (always the problem and the first hurdle, I know!)...
Architects as well as contractors and developers. Starting forum now. See you there.
Pale Shelter, thanks for the encouragement! I appreciate it and I will continue where appropriate. Don’t be shy about posting, your function here is to feed the question threads, push discussions in new directions where appropriate and learn and soak up….its not only helpful to you but it benefits others too.
The community I live in and grew up in is about 500,000. I served other communities too, some smaller some larger. Right here, now at home, the population has stalled and I don’t see it improving much in my remaining life. To develop in a community it needs to be growing, you need people, families and business to move into a community and blow air into the balloon and make it bigger. You can’t build even a 4-plex without someone to buy it or move into it. Of course people and businesses do move laterally and up so opportunities do still exist.
New construction and development gets hurt by these recessions. It slams down hard on real estate values making it hard for new construction to compete. The cost of new construction never decreases during these events, they just keep going up. I’m looking at moving and you would think that a guy like me would design/build my own new home, but hell no. Why? Why would I want to spend $250+/SF to build new when I can by old and rehab for less than $150/SF. These things of course run in cycles and historically over time demand for the old homes lead the line on the graph and as time passes values of the old go up and before you know it it becomes more viable to build new than buy old. The volume of old too is still great and it’s going to take a lot of time to absorb this inventory. Its happening but its slow.
This applies to commercial real estate as well. Why would a business look to be in a new building at $18/SF when they can easily find something old at $10/SF.? It’s the recession causing this.
Exceptions abound, I’m shocked by pockets of new expensive homes going up in my area but there are always young fillys with old husbands looking for new granite countertops and islands in the kitchen. These people are not buying with their heads their buying with their genitals.