Finished undergrad, it was a pretty cool experience. The hours sucked though.
There is a lot of talk in arch school about being a "martyr for architecture" accepting the low salary and tough hours... I just dont know if its worth it.
Dont get me wrong, I am passionate about architecture and think I am pretty good at design, the problem is I feel like in a firm I wont actually be designing. Ill be drafting bathroom details for twenty years till I get an ownership stake and then ya... maybe I get to design.
I love architecture, but I didnt get into this field to be a glorified drafter making 40k a year with average job security.
Are my prospects better than this? Or is it time to go a new route?
what you're assuming is that being a 'glorified drafter' doesn't lead to continued learning. if you're not up for that, yeah, you should get out.
those that come into a firm - even if very green - and take the initiative to learn and take responsibility are on a quicker path to project management and, yes, design.
if you are passionate, as you say, you'll do the hard work. if you're not interested in the hard work, you won't have to make a decision about architecture - you just won't be doing it.
The old canard that absolutely nothing exists between the extremes of inexperienced intern and designing maestro is baseless and useless. It robs those just entering the field of any hope for doing interesting work before the age of fifty and rank of firm owner. Don't buy it, because it isn't true.
But, as Steven says, if you're not up to the task of continued learning, creative thinking, and making your own opportunities-- then, no, don't go any further.
"I feel like in a firm I wont actually be designing. Ill be drafting bathroom details for twenty years till I get an ownership stake and then ya... maybe I get to design."
This is a lament I've heard from virtually every young architect I've known for nearly 35 years. I seem to recall that I too made similar comments when I was looking for my own first job out of school. Yet, somehow a fairly large proportion of the profession manages to have reasonably satisfactory careers (mostly, that silent majority doesn't post here often).
If you love it and are prepared to put in some effort and patience to succeed, you should stay in. If you don't love it, or if you're afraid of hard work and a responsibility for developing your own career, I suggest you leave now. What the profession needs now are people who are committed to success through initiative, persistence and talent ... not people whose expectations are deeply grounded in entitlement.
The future is unknown. The future also belongs to those with the courage and commitment to give it shape and substance.
you could always just pay your dues like everyone else does for 3-5 years after school, get licensed, and then start your own thing... if youre too anxious to wait.
When I graduated 10 years ago I was just happy to have a job, any job. If you're passionate, intelligent, and talented, you will be doing more than toilet room elevations and stair details in fairly short order (as long as your bosses are paying attention). For the first 5 or 6 months of my career I was doing the typical CAD monkey stuff, then I got my first "design" opportunity doing the paver pattern on a big project. Shortly thereafter I was designing whole projects and managing the work of other interns.
furthermore, i wonder if our toilet room details suck because we continue to put these disgruntled design geniuses on toilet room drafting duty. perhaps we need more principals showing these 22-year-old frank lloyd wrights how to put together ada-compliant millwork rather than sharing drinks at the local country club. just a thought.
I only know maybe two real architects in real life. And they are the silent majority-- they seem to be paid well, they never work past 6 p.m. and they seem to enjoy work. One is 27 and the other is 32.
i suppose it's difficult to transition from an academic studio to a real job in a real firm. in the former, every stroke of that floating building project was your own -- from the initial concept, to diagrams, to how it was presented in the end (both visually and verbally). in the latter, you step into this new and unfamiliar territory, still green from school, and find that you don't have quite the same voice you did just a few months before. i think the above advice is all very good, and i'll add a few more pieces.
first, academic architecture is like part one of an architecture education. everything you learned in school is very valuable and i promise will get folded into your daily professional life; you just have to have some patience. the real job in the real firm is like part two; you have to learn how to make a floating building real. this includes bathroom details...and millions of other aspects of designing for construction. when i finished school, i was much like you. i loved academia and never saw myself as a practicing architect...but i surprised myself, especially at my first opportunity to do ca. i found seeing my design realized and solving problems throughout this process very satisfying...something i never imagined for myself while in school.
second, students on the brink of entering the profession perceive this all-or-nothing approach to designing architecture, however, there are design opportunities in so many aspects of a building -- not just its initial concept. the more you learn, the more responsibility you will be given, including design.
third, although the economic climate isn't completely conducive to this type of job search, you need to zero in on a firm that has a strong focus and interest in making interns into architects...and not keeping interns as interns, if that makes sense. a sign of a firm that does this is one that has people staggered at many levels of experience, and every so often bring in a new person at the bottom. there are so many people to learn from in this scenario and if you're there a while, people that you will teach, as well. if you're talking to a firm top-heavy in experience, i would suggest looking thoroughly for evidence that they're willing to take you under their wing and train you to become an architect...and not someone that will always be joe the intern.
I once heard there is one good designer for every ten who claim to be designers....the longer I'm in this profession the more I think the spread grows wider...and wider. Then I think about the skills taught in school....and I scratch my head....
Design and construction go hand in hand... You will have opportunities to design early but just realize that you have alot to learn and design is not the broad brush stroke personal design projects in school... At different scales there are constraints related to client context, construction, economy, etc. Design but learn how to work with all real world factors to really make something happen... Clients do expect that they are paying you to have design ideas but they are also expecting that to be grounded in real world experience related to construction... Takes years IMHO to be really savvy, learn from your colleagues, look for opportunities where there are constraints...
if all you are interested is design, and you just finished undergrad, it sounds like you are talking about very basic schematic level design, if that.
And if you think you are somehow too good to do bathroom details ever, then yes, perhaps you should not continue.
"I love architecture, but I didnt get into this field to be a glorified drafter making 40k a year with average job security."
This statement sounds like you have never actually worked in a firm before. If you had, you would know that not everyone gets to design their dream jobs 7 days a week the minute they leave school. There is more to being an architect than what you seem to think is "design".
There is no reason for you to become a glorified drafter if you dont want to, but dont expect someone to just hand it to you. You have to prove your value and then you will move up.
Remember though, paying your dues isnt something that is a waste of time. When you are paying your dues, you are actually learning the ins and outs of the business that you cant in school, and will also make you a better designer. It doesnt happen over night or on your first project. But if you resign yourself to the attitude that you should be doing something else, and dont bother to learn, then you will just be wasting your time, and yes, become a glorified drafter.
it'ts like someone who joins the marines and has doubts - those you doubt, DIE - Do yourself a favor and stay out - architecture needs a few good people, and m22b, you aint it.
well perhaps this guy just hasnt really worked in an office yet, so all he knows about the profession is the fun design studios from school. And yes, all you hear while in school is the negative aspects of the field which mainly end up being not nearly as bad as they make it out to be, i.e. doing bathroom details until you become an owner and only then are allowed to design?
perhaps if m22b could post again and let us know his experiences in a bit more detail?
and architecture isnt really like the marines. The marines deal with life and death and protecting our country. Architecture is a lot less serious than that, lets not go overboard
Depending on the firm, experiences can vary. You can be a CAD monkey and have no input, or have lots of input early on in the process. What's important to note is that regardless of the situation, if you work hard and have the talent, you will be noticed.
Nearly all of the architects that I've enjoyed working with and have learned from were under the age of 50. Spending twenty years working, learning, and developing in a firm is something that you would be well-advised to do. Architecture isn't just design; it's making sure all of our cute designs work well. And that's something that you learn over time.
These are good, thoughtful responses. Thank you. It is hard as a student have forsight but I am trying. I guess I have never loved drafting, even though I enjoy where drafting gets me. Money isnt the only important thing to me in a career either, I think job security and satisfaction take precedence. Its hard to know how satisfactory an architectural career will be though because nobody will give me any experience and I know practice is much different from school...
That said, I dont really expect many people who are posting here who are working in architecture to tell me their career hasnt been worth it and wasnt everything they thought it would be. But thank you for your thoughful responses either way.
"I dont really expect many people who are posting here ... to tell me their career hasnt been worth it and wasn't everything they thought it would be."
odd ... you ask a question and solicit the views of the people who habituate archinect. then, after receiving a significant number of responses, you indicate that you don't really think the responses you receive are either objective or honest.
if those were your expectations, why did you bother to post a question?
It seems a disproportionate amount of posters on here are somewhat negative about the profession, so that is what has had me worried.
What I meant is that I assume a fair number of the people who have enjoyed their career and think its all been worth it dont really have time to waste on boards like these. Message boards in general seem a place where people like to commiserate and complain... thats really what has had me worried.
I do think I am getting honest, thoughtful responses from those that both like and maybe regret the career so thank you all.
My background...
undergrad in arch completed. Offers to mArch. Couldnt get a job last summer and this summer I havent even had a call back. Its a little frustrating that I will be mowing lawns. I dont expect much more than doing research or drafting at this point but anything in a firm to help me understand more about the vocation would be nice... before i commit myself to two more sleepless years.
For one, "drafting monkeys" are becoming a thing of the past. With so many firms using BIM, the employee - draftter, designer, archiect, intern, etc - needs to know how a building goes together. Sure, you may spend a few days picking up redlines or refining details but you will spend time designing.
While you may not design a full building, you do get to design paving patterns and toilet rooms as mentioned in previous posts. You also get to design the detail, and that is where the practical learning takes place. Take every chance to design.
I've worked at a small firm since college. I've been promoted to project architect within 3yrs because I design every opportunity I get. There hasn't been a drafter here in 2 yrs. To me, it isn't drafting. It's all critical thinking and design.
"Drafting" today requires knowledge of building tectonics, aesthetics, system coordination, common construction practices. You should relish these days because ironically the senior architects design less since they are bogged down with admin paperwork, proposals, and marketing.
having graduated just a few years ago, I had the same feelings and apprehensions (though I never considered leaving architecture) pretty recently. As with many other students, I worked in a couple different offices during the summers between semesters, so I had some understanding of what I was getting into after school, and how the profession of architecture is different from (and similar to) academia. I have the good fortune (in my mind) to work in a small office that focuses heavily on details and construction, which is something I'm particularly interested in. The rewards and demands, as well as the process and nature of the work, are often quite different than the work done in studio, but there are plenty of opportunities to be engaged in good work, or at the very least to take something out of even relatively mundane work. If architecture is what interests you and you can accept that you will likely never work in an environment akin to school, you should keep with it.
All that having been said, given the prevalence (or even near universality) of this concern among students and recent graduates, I wonder if our architectural educations are doing us some disservice. I know this has been discussed here before and there are changes afoot in many schools, and I believe very firmly that academia should not mimic the professional world, that schools provide more than career training. Still, the focus on individual creativity, lack of constraints, and an environment quite the opposite of the collaborative (and sometimes subservient) nature of the profession seems to breed the early 20th century idea of a singular creative genius. This seems to be what leads many to a sort of Howard Roarke idealization at some point, as well as what led in large part to the failures of Modernism in the middle of the 20th century. I think encouraging individual study and creativity is extremely important in schools, but I wonder how it might be augmented to better prepare graduates for the professional world, as well as relieving the sense of disillusionment that seems to permeate early professional life. I think this would not only better prepare students, but better serve them, and in the end this would lead to a more satisfied group of young professionals, better able and more eager to bring new ideas, talent and cooperation to a profession often in need of renewal.
Schools do have things backwards. As much as I love designing something completely on my own (architecture, web, graphics, art, whatever), I've also learned over the years that collaboration can be just as fulfilling and lead to more fruitful experiences.
The "I am God" mentality, or Roark as FLM points out, is just not healthy for the real world. Just as too much theory and no business knowledge is dangerous.
Back on topic...m22b...I am one of those on here that left the profession due to frustration and lack of what I thought it would be when I entered undergrad. I cherish my education, but could not work the regular architecture job.
Architecture is a wonderful education and, when combined with other avenues, can be a very flexible education. As they say, don't put all your eggs in one basket, especially when there seems to be no end of egg smashing going on in this economy.
You also need to weigh "being a cad monkey" against other options that are open to you. In this economy (I know I am sick of those words too) I am glad to have the oportunity to do what amounts to architectural paperwork. I haven't really worked on a interesting project in a year, but have learned more than ever in terms of project management and construction administration. I don't drive home everyday screaming I love my job but it sure beats saying "welcome to subway" everytime someone walks in the door. I'd much rather be drafting some bathroom details than filing paperwork for some attorney or CPA.
what is it like to start in other fields as well. If you finish law school, do you instantly start with capital murder cases? When you finish med school, do you instantly have your own practice to specialize in your very favorite specialty?
if you are so opposed to doing other aspects of the architecture profession, that you consider leaving before even starting, then perhaps it isnt for you. Just like if you wanted to be a lawyer to only ever be a high profile trial lawyer because you think it looks fun in the movies.
that is kind of how you figure out if a profession is for you, in any field. you have to like doing ALL aspects of it, at least a little bit
it seems students get a bit mislead in school, or just dont get enough on the job experience to get an actual feel for the profession. then its a big rude surprise to them when they graduate
ya that makes sense... this is helping. i just feel like my eyes are going to fall out... its funny but in a way cad feels like manual labor for the brain, at least in school. good thing i get to play around in sketchup and bim every once in a while.
I wouldnt complain at all about 20k or even 16k a year after undergrad... Not one person in my class has even gotten an interview. I dont think that is an unrealistic expectation after graduating from school.
I would work for free this summer to experience a firm and learn...
I would complain about 20k after grad school though.
well right now you need to take anything you can get in the field and wait out the rest of this economy. things will turn around, they always do. you just happen to have graduated at the worst time in a long time.
CAD is manual labor, just like drafting by hand used to be. you need to approach it with the right mindset and learn as much as you can.
learning other tools is also helpful, as then you will be able to do some 3D modeling at work instead of just CAD all day long. It may not necessarily be all your own design, but its a change from drafting and is a little more fun.
Honestly, it seems these days interns are doing as much 3D modeling and sketchup stuff as they are CAD details. If you are so worried about not drafting 40 hours a week, make sure you have other skills to offer right away like that.
m22b said, "I think job security and satisfaction take precedence. Its hard to know how satisfactory"
job security: Generally there is none and probably won't be for at least the next ten years, as the profession has currently been fundamentally rototilled by the sum total of all the market forces and nothing is going to grow for like ten years. Don't expect the average poster here to talk about this openly though. Unemployment is currently 50-60% nationwide and of course, as expected, the so called leaders of the profession are keeping mum, generally speaking, as all good dictators do. And one thought for you....just who are the 50-60% unemployed? Well, 90% of them are the MArch recent grads and/or ten years of experience and a recent Arch License (I'm in the latter category). There are always exceptions and since most posters on this forum just LOVE to exclude generalities and myopically get OCD about the exceptions to every rule, like I said, don't expect these masochistically optimistic tools leverage their self deceipt onto you.
satisfaction: According to the AIA Compensation Report BEFORE the market meltdown started 2 years ago...an MArch was worth a massive 35,000 to the marketplace. Again, that was before the market meltdown! If you like to work like Rembrant and have dreams of dying while watching all of your belongings get auctioned off like he did...then the life of the starving artist is for you because thats as much security as is built into the profession these days...no joke.
I have an accredited MArch, am NCARB certified, Registered in 2 States. It is a wasteland right now, in terms of work. The best thing I can do right now is dream of having gone back in time and do what a friend of mine did after getting his undergrad in Arch...go to law school. Currently I am preparing for the LSAT. After ten years of this, I have most definitely had enough.
By the way, if you don't like CAD and esp. CAD monkeying on a computer all day...R-U-N even faster for the nearest exit...as that is preceisely what you will be expected to do for the first thrity years of your arch career---> even more so now that the market has been primed to believe that Architects are nothing more than CAD hungry beasts that sweat CAD details and give them away for free (or even PAY for the opportunity to slave as a CAD Monkey).
m22b honestly you sound like me....don't fall for their lies man! The schools are setup to bait and switch you...get you all high minded thinking you are going to have access to solving problems that are difficult and fun to propose solutions to...when in reality the schools are designed at this point to bait you into falling in love with this ideal in order to FEED you to an already oversaturated market because the profession is now organized like a corporate army where they just throw more CAD Monkeys into the pit in the hope that some poor "intern" at some point might untangle 1 out of ten CAD knots before the project had to go out to bid yesterday!
There are much better avenues to solving important and interesting problems. I ended up doing Construction Management for 2 1/2 years after getting licensed and the pay was twice as good, I was treated with at least 3x as much respect by the firm owners, I was in a management position on site at an earlier ager, and I got to call the shots on construction projects where I also learned about BUILDING in the real world. I swear I learned 1 months worth of CAD Monkey knowledge in 1 day on the job as a Project Manager in CM.
My friend that did law school after undergrad Arch...oh yeah...5 years later he is solving some good problems and gets paid handsomely for his brain...because he has one. Most "designers" simply do not. I wish I had not been so well-intentioned in my justification of how moronic the stooges that fill CAD stations are. But they are. If your IQ is 110 or higher you will most likely just end up having your intelligence insulted for the next thirty years as you are paid 1/3 what you are worth while doing work that is no more meaningful than jsut another monkey flinging poo across your cage (I mean cubicle) at the other.
m22b said, "is unemployment really 50%? Where did you get that?"
Mostly just common sense gleaned from many, many sources, some citable (though I would have to dig a little on the internet to find again), and some are merely anecdotal.
I came across an article about Nevada 1 year ago and it had the guts to call it at 60%...and its only gotten worse there.
In Utah 1 year ago I called an Architect friend who has been around for a long time and he said it was 60% of licensed Archs in the state had been laid off at that time...and it hasn't gotten any better
Florida there was a newspaper article stating 60% unemployment 1 year ago...and it hasn't gotten any better.
I read something last month about Wisconsin in an online newspaper that everybody in a certain big city knew that unemployment was 60% or greater but that nobody in the AIA was talking about it.
Many of my friend in two large metro cities in two totally different states have been laid off, anecdotally in my sphere of influence it seems like its about 50% laid off.
I contacted a couple of firms I have good relationships with to ask if I could help part time unpaid and was told that they don't even have work to keep themselves busy at this point (laid a bunch of people off).
I've been to every firm (about 25? I think) within a 60 mile radius of my hometown and Nobody is hiring (hiring structural engineers here and there but not hiring anybody but 1/2 price CAD jockey's "right now")
I did get a few letters back from various firms...NOT INTERESTED. One firm that I might actually get excited to work at (Big Hospital Architecture) did send me a letter indicating that they'd like to interview me this fall IF things improve in the economy.
I've been hearing for 1.5 years, ever since I've been keeping my ear to the rail, that "things are starting to turn around" like every 3 or 4 months or so. And then we have Obamadingo in Jan saying the meltdown is over and recoery had started.
Yeah right! Show me the money! I'll believe it WHEN I see it...and I ain't seeing it.
But hey! If you have a rich uncle or some other special connection to a gravvy train---> more power to you!
If not and your IQ is over 110 and you value your life more than the next starving artist...R_U_N!!!
DEMOGRAPHICS! (MBA & Healthcare?) though I recently read that an unprecedented # of MBAs are already concentrating in Healthcare so perhaps there might already be oversaturation? But then again, why not work for oneself if there is no leverage to be found for the next ten years anyways?
Howard Beale = One Fella = Winston Smith = Obi Wan Kenobi = Leonidas = Benjamin Franklin = Piggy = the names just go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
Sorry m22b. Paul Revere has no idea what hes talking about. Hes having trouble finding work because hes a sociopath and the white hood is going over terribly in job interviews.
You'll be fine. If you love this stuff then do it. Bust your ass, make good work, even when its hard, and things will open up for you. Thats always how these things work, no matter where you go.
Absolutely. Most well grounded, non speculative real estate analysts with stellar track records of forecasting say that the bottom hasn't even BEGUN to fall out of the commercial Real Estate market. That is supposed to start happening anytime now...could be tomorrow or several months or a couple of years but supposedly most commerical loans are about to go into default.
remember that several of the more frequent posters have a vested interest in having as much fresh meat hit the market come post graduation springtime as possible!
The more fresh meat + all the meat desperate to underbid eachother = many, many pathetically underpaid and starving artists (and that is IF you can even find a job with these folks' firms where baiting and switching is the name of the game and eating your own young for breakfast is on the menuy every single day.
I have no economic interest in this issue. Other than working for myself and...well, myself. And keeping my conscience clean by being as honest and transparent as I can.
About 80% of the general popuylation is intimidated by the truth. Sadly, in my experience about 98% of those who have the mentality of "designer" (or at least self purport to) are deathly afraid of the stark naked truth.
So, out come the red herrings, the ad hominem drive by guerilla attacks, and the Alinsky (Rule for Radicals) Zombie tactics.
Trying to keep it real in an extremely superficial profession.
I dont know man. In the real world I know, we work hard and contribute, and you sit in your basement posting racist things on the internet while you live off your wifes paycheck. I think that raises questions about who's afraid of the truth.
You might be drafting bathroom elevations today, but who knows what tomorrow holds? Maybe they'll put you on mill work details, or tagging windows and doors. If you're real lucky, they'll let you assemble the entire schedule.
"And that's when the big bucks start rolling in" - Louie Anderson(RIP) 'Coming to America'.
Want to design right out of college? Well, find a guy who is running a 1 man operation, and do your best to become his sidekick. You'll be designing soon enough...whether you want to or not.
So oe says...and who are you anyways? As is I could really care less what some anonymous douchebag who constantly reverts to attacking me instead of arguing against my propositions.
Um...remember...Alinsky doesn't work on me.
Argue the merits of your propositions or the counter arguments to mine...WITHOUT taking things out of their appropriate context.
I am as non racist or racist as the Founding Fathers. Period. And they made it to Heaven so I don't think thats a bad act to follow.
Either way I won't be apologizing...I do know what I am talking about. Apparently a lot of folks on this website don't even know what thye are talking about...perhaps that is why there is no depth to any of your counter points except perhaps the old, tired, "racist" threat and "my dad can beat up your dad", and "your feet smell so you obviously don't know what you are talking about."
There is no shame in speaking from my experience. Unfortunately for all the zombies on Archinect, I remind you that the galaxy doesn't orbit around your collective fetish for a communisty one world government led by the One nor around the AIA or their arch porno rag Record.
Save your Alinsky tactics for the uninitiated.
I am sorely tempted to post the threat I received from Archinect when ObiWanKenobi was banned not too many moons ago...might make a WHOLE LOT of visitors to Archinect think twice about visiting the site and/or firms allowing access to Archinect.
But perhaps I'll let my lawyer do the talking for me one of these days. That might be more interesting.
Freedom of Speech is under threat but it is still the law of the land...yet.
And I am certain that all you commie lovers most assuradley have a cattle care marked "One Fella and alias'" just for your truly when you plan on shipping me off to the old gas chambers.
Struggling... should I really do this?
Finished undergrad, it was a pretty cool experience. The hours sucked though.
There is a lot of talk in arch school about being a "martyr for architecture" accepting the low salary and tough hours... I just dont know if its worth it.
Dont get me wrong, I am passionate about architecture and think I am pretty good at design, the problem is I feel like in a firm I wont actually be designing. Ill be drafting bathroom details for twenty years till I get an ownership stake and then ya... maybe I get to design.
I love architecture, but I didnt get into this field to be a glorified drafter making 40k a year with average job security.
Are my prospects better than this? Or is it time to go a new route?
Thanks.
ps, already accepted to grad school, havent decided if I am attending...
what you're assuming is that being a 'glorified drafter' doesn't lead to continued learning. if you're not up for that, yeah, you should get out.
those that come into a firm - even if very green - and take the initiative to learn and take responsibility are on a quicker path to project management and, yes, design.
if you are passionate, as you say, you'll do the hard work. if you're not interested in the hard work, you won't have to make a decision about architecture - you just won't be doing it.
Steven's point is a good one.
The old canard that absolutely nothing exists between the extremes of inexperienced intern and designing maestro is baseless and useless. It robs those just entering the field of any hope for doing interesting work before the age of fifty and rank of firm owner. Don't buy it, because it isn't true.
But, as Steven says, if you're not up to the task of continued learning, creative thinking, and making your own opportunities-- then, no, don't go any further.
You will likely get to design AND draft, playing both roles, for many, many years.
This is a lament I've heard from virtually every young architect I've known for nearly 35 years. I seem to recall that I too made similar comments when I was looking for my own first job out of school. Yet, somehow a fairly large proportion of the profession manages to have reasonably satisfactory careers (mostly, that silent majority doesn't post here often).
If you love it and are prepared to put in some effort and patience to succeed, you should stay in. If you don't love it, or if you're afraid of hard work and a responsibility for developing your own career, I suggest you leave now. What the profession needs now are people who are committed to success through initiative, persistence and talent ... not people whose expectations are deeply grounded in entitlement.
The future is unknown. The future also belongs to those with the courage and commitment to give it shape and substance.
you could always just pay your dues like everyone else does for 3-5 years after school, get licensed, and then start your own thing... if youre too anxious to wait.
When I graduated 10 years ago I was just happy to have a job, any job. If you're passionate, intelligent, and talented, you will be doing more than toilet room elevations and stair details in fairly short order (as long as your bosses are paying attention). For the first 5 or 6 months of my career I was doing the typical CAD monkey stuff, then I got my first "design" opportunity doing the paver pattern on a big project. Shortly thereafter I was designing whole projects and managing the work of other interns.
have you walked into any public restrooms lately? the detailing generally sucks. we need fewer design maestros and more toilet room detailers.
furthermore, i wonder if our toilet room details suck because we continue to put these disgruntled design geniuses on toilet room drafting duty. perhaps we need more principals showing these 22-year-old frank lloyd wrights how to put together ada-compliant millwork rather than sharing drinks at the local country club. just a thought.
see other threads
jafidler, brilliant.
I only know maybe two real architects in real life. And they are the silent majority-- they seem to be paid well, they never work past 6 p.m. and they seem to enjoy work. One is 27 and the other is 32.
i suppose it's difficult to transition from an academic studio to a real job in a real firm. in the former, every stroke of that floating building project was your own -- from the initial concept, to diagrams, to how it was presented in the end (both visually and verbally). in the latter, you step into this new and unfamiliar territory, still green from school, and find that you don't have quite the same voice you did just a few months before. i think the above advice is all very good, and i'll add a few more pieces.
first, academic architecture is like part one of an architecture education. everything you learned in school is very valuable and i promise will get folded into your daily professional life; you just have to have some patience. the real job in the real firm is like part two; you have to learn how to make a floating building real. this includes bathroom details...and millions of other aspects of designing for construction. when i finished school, i was much like you. i loved academia and never saw myself as a practicing architect...but i surprised myself, especially at my first opportunity to do ca. i found seeing my design realized and solving problems throughout this process very satisfying...something i never imagined for myself while in school.
second, students on the brink of entering the profession perceive this all-or-nothing approach to designing architecture, however, there are design opportunities in so many aspects of a building -- not just its initial concept. the more you learn, the more responsibility you will be given, including design.
third, although the economic climate isn't completely conducive to this type of job search, you need to zero in on a firm that has a strong focus and interest in making interns into architects...and not keeping interns as interns, if that makes sense. a sign of a firm that does this is one that has people staggered at many levels of experience, and every so often bring in a new person at the bottom. there are so many people to learn from in this scenario and if you're there a while, people that you will teach, as well. if you're talking to a firm top-heavy in experience, i would suggest looking thoroughly for evidence that they're willing to take you under their wing and train you to become an architect...and not someone that will always be joe the intern.
(They design Robert Stern knock off shit though.)
One Word:
R_U_N.
I once heard there is one good designer for every ten who claim to be designers....the longer I'm in this profession the more I think the spread grows wider...and wider. Then I think about the skills taught in school....and I scratch my head....
That's true for any creative field - graphic artists think they are all good, musicians think they are all good, etc., etc.
Design and construction go hand in hand... You will have opportunities to design early but just realize that you have alot to learn and design is not the broad brush stroke personal design projects in school... At different scales there are constraints related to client context, construction, economy, etc. Design but learn how to work with all real world factors to really make something happen... Clients do expect that they are paying you to have design ideas but they are also expecting that to be grounded in real world experience related to construction... Takes years IMHO to be really savvy, learn from your colleagues, look for opportunities where there are constraints...
if all you are interested is design, and you just finished undergrad, it sounds like you are talking about very basic schematic level design, if that.
And if you think you are somehow too good to do bathroom details ever, then yes, perhaps you should not continue.
"I love architecture, but I didnt get into this field to be a glorified drafter making 40k a year with average job security."
This statement sounds like you have never actually worked in a firm before. If you had, you would know that not everyone gets to design their dream jobs 7 days a week the minute they leave school. There is more to being an architect than what you seem to think is "design".
There is no reason for you to become a glorified drafter if you dont want to, but dont expect someone to just hand it to you. You have to prove your value and then you will move up.
Remember though, paying your dues isnt something that is a waste of time. When you are paying your dues, you are actually learning the ins and outs of the business that you cant in school, and will also make you a better designer. It doesnt happen over night or on your first project. But if you resign yourself to the attitude that you should be doing something else, and dont bother to learn, then you will just be wasting your time, and yes, become a glorified drafter.
it'ts like someone who joins the marines and has doubts - those you doubt, DIE - Do yourself a favor and stay out - architecture needs a few good people, and m22b, you aint it.
well perhaps this guy just hasnt really worked in an office yet, so all he knows about the profession is the fun design studios from school. And yes, all you hear while in school is the negative aspects of the field which mainly end up being not nearly as bad as they make it out to be, i.e. doing bathroom details until you become an owner and only then are allowed to design?
perhaps if m22b could post again and let us know his experiences in a bit more detail?
and architecture isnt really like the marines. The marines deal with life and death and protecting our country. Architecture is a lot less serious than that, lets not go overboard
Depending on the firm, experiences can vary. You can be a CAD monkey and have no input, or have lots of input early on in the process. What's important to note is that regardless of the situation, if you work hard and have the talent, you will be noticed.
Nearly all of the architects that I've enjoyed working with and have learned from were under the age of 50. Spending twenty years working, learning, and developing in a firm is something that you would be well-advised to do. Architecture isn't just design; it's making sure all of our cute designs work well. And that's something that you learn over time.
These are good, thoughtful responses. Thank you. It is hard as a student have forsight but I am trying. I guess I have never loved drafting, even though I enjoy where drafting gets me. Money isnt the only important thing to me in a career either, I think job security and satisfaction take precedence. Its hard to know how satisfactory an architectural career will be though because nobody will give me any experience and I know practice is much different from school...
That said, I dont really expect many people who are posting here who are working in architecture to tell me their career hasnt been worth it and wasnt everything they thought it would be. But thank you for your thoughful responses either way.
odd ... you ask a question and solicit the views of the people who habituate archinect. then, after receiving a significant number of responses, you indicate that you don't really think the responses you receive are either objective or honest.
if those were your expectations, why did you bother to post a question?
Ya that is not what I meant to say...
It seems a disproportionate amount of posters on here are somewhat negative about the profession, so that is what has had me worried.
What I meant is that I assume a fair number of the people who have enjoyed their career and think its all been worth it dont really have time to waste on boards like these. Message boards in general seem a place where people like to commiserate and complain... thats really what has had me worried.
I do think I am getting honest, thoughtful responses from those that both like and maybe regret the career so thank you all.
My background...
undergrad in arch completed. Offers to mArch. Couldnt get a job last summer and this summer I havent even had a call back. Its a little frustrating that I will be mowing lawns. I dont expect much more than doing research or drafting at this point but anything in a firm to help me understand more about the vocation would be nice... before i commit myself to two more sleepless years.
For one, "drafting monkeys" are becoming a thing of the past. With so many firms using BIM, the employee - draftter, designer, archiect, intern, etc - needs to know how a building goes together. Sure, you may spend a few days picking up redlines or refining details but you will spend time designing.
While you may not design a full building, you do get to design paving patterns and toilet rooms as mentioned in previous posts. You also get to design the detail, and that is where the practical learning takes place. Take every chance to design.
I've worked at a small firm since college. I've been promoted to project architect within 3yrs because I design every opportunity I get. There hasn't been a drafter here in 2 yrs. To me, it isn't drafting. It's all critical thinking and design.
"Drafting" today requires knowledge of building tectonics, aesthetics, system coordination, common construction practices. You should relish these days because ironically the senior architects design less since they are bogged down with admin paperwork, proposals, and marketing.
having graduated just a few years ago, I had the same feelings and apprehensions (though I never considered leaving architecture) pretty recently. As with many other students, I worked in a couple different offices during the summers between semesters, so I had some understanding of what I was getting into after school, and how the profession of architecture is different from (and similar to) academia. I have the good fortune (in my mind) to work in a small office that focuses heavily on details and construction, which is something I'm particularly interested in. The rewards and demands, as well as the process and nature of the work, are often quite different than the work done in studio, but there are plenty of opportunities to be engaged in good work, or at the very least to take something out of even relatively mundane work. If architecture is what interests you and you can accept that you will likely never work in an environment akin to school, you should keep with it.
All that having been said, given the prevalence (or even near universality) of this concern among students and recent graduates, I wonder if our architectural educations are doing us some disservice. I know this has been discussed here before and there are changes afoot in many schools, and I believe very firmly that academia should not mimic the professional world, that schools provide more than career training. Still, the focus on individual creativity, lack of constraints, and an environment quite the opposite of the collaborative (and sometimes subservient) nature of the profession seems to breed the early 20th century idea of a singular creative genius. This seems to be what leads many to a sort of Howard Roarke idealization at some point, as well as what led in large part to the failures of Modernism in the middle of the 20th century. I think encouraging individual study and creativity is extremely important in schools, but I wonder how it might be augmented to better prepare graduates for the professional world, as well as relieving the sense of disillusionment that seems to permeate early professional life. I think this would not only better prepare students, but better serve them, and in the end this would lead to a more satisfied group of young professionals, better able and more eager to bring new ideas, talent and cooperation to a profession often in need of renewal.
Schools do have things backwards. As much as I love designing something completely on my own (architecture, web, graphics, art, whatever), I've also learned over the years that collaboration can be just as fulfilling and lead to more fruitful experiences.
The "I am God" mentality, or Roark as FLM points out, is just not healthy for the real world. Just as too much theory and no business knowledge is dangerous.
Back on topic...m22b...I am one of those on here that left the profession due to frustration and lack of what I thought it would be when I entered undergrad. I cherish my education, but could not work the regular architecture job.
Architecture is a wonderful education and, when combined with other avenues, can be a very flexible education. As they say, don't put all your eggs in one basket, especially when there seems to be no end of egg smashing going on in this economy.
You also need to weigh "being a cad monkey" against other options that are open to you. In this economy (I know I am sick of those words too) I am glad to have the oportunity to do what amounts to architectural paperwork. I haven't really worked on a interesting project in a year, but have learned more than ever in terms of project management and construction administration. I don't drive home everyday screaming I love my job but it sure beats saying "welcome to subway" everytime someone walks in the door. I'd much rather be drafting some bathroom details than filing paperwork for some attorney or CPA.
that is a good point spaceghost
what is it like to start in other fields as well. If you finish law school, do you instantly start with capital murder cases? When you finish med school, do you instantly have your own practice to specialize in your very favorite specialty?
if you are so opposed to doing other aspects of the architecture profession, that you consider leaving before even starting, then perhaps it isnt for you. Just like if you wanted to be a lawyer to only ever be a high profile trial lawyer because you think it looks fun in the movies.
that is kind of how you figure out if a profession is for you, in any field. you have to like doing ALL aspects of it, at least a little bit
it seems students get a bit mislead in school, or just dont get enough on the job experience to get an actual feel for the profession. then its a big rude surprise to them when they graduate
ya that makes sense... this is helping. i just feel like my eyes are going to fall out... its funny but in a way cad feels like manual labor for the brain, at least in school. good thing i get to play around in sketchup and bim every once in a while.
I made under 20k after undergrad, I was lucky to get 16k a year.
Anyone that wants to complain about a 40k a year job is just a whiney bitch that needs to grow up and stop being such a spoiled little brat.
I wouldnt complain at all about 20k or even 16k a year after undergrad... Not one person in my class has even gotten an interview. I dont think that is an unrealistic expectation after graduating from school.
I would work for free this summer to experience a firm and learn...
I would complain about 20k after grad school though.
well right now you need to take anything you can get in the field and wait out the rest of this economy. things will turn around, they always do. you just happen to have graduated at the worst time in a long time.
CAD is manual labor, just like drafting by hand used to be. you need to approach it with the right mindset and learn as much as you can.
learning other tools is also helpful, as then you will be able to do some 3D modeling at work instead of just CAD all day long. It may not necessarily be all your own design, but its a change from drafting and is a little more fun.
Honestly, it seems these days interns are doing as much 3D modeling and sketchup stuff as they are CAD details. If you are so worried about not drafting 40 hours a week, make sure you have other skills to offer right away like that.
m22b said, "I think job security and satisfaction take precedence. Its hard to know how satisfactory"
job security: Generally there is none and probably won't be for at least the next ten years, as the profession has currently been fundamentally rototilled by the sum total of all the market forces and nothing is going to grow for like ten years. Don't expect the average poster here to talk about this openly though. Unemployment is currently 50-60% nationwide and of course, as expected, the so called leaders of the profession are keeping mum, generally speaking, as all good dictators do. And one thought for you....just who are the 50-60% unemployed? Well, 90% of them are the MArch recent grads and/or ten years of experience and a recent Arch License (I'm in the latter category). There are always exceptions and since most posters on this forum just LOVE to exclude generalities and myopically get OCD about the exceptions to every rule, like I said, don't expect these masochistically optimistic tools leverage their self deceipt onto you.
satisfaction: According to the AIA Compensation Report BEFORE the market meltdown started 2 years ago...an MArch was worth a massive 35,000 to the marketplace. Again, that was before the market meltdown! If you like to work like Rembrant and have dreams of dying while watching all of your belongings get auctioned off like he did...then the life of the starving artist is for you because thats as much security as is built into the profession these days...no joke.
I have an accredited MArch, am NCARB certified, Registered in 2 States. It is a wasteland right now, in terms of work. The best thing I can do right now is dream of having gone back in time and do what a friend of mine did after getting his undergrad in Arch...go to law school. Currently I am preparing for the LSAT. After ten years of this, I have most definitely had enough.
R_U_N!
is unemployment really 50%? Where did you get that?
By the way, if you don't like CAD and esp. CAD monkeying on a computer all day...R-U-N even faster for the nearest exit...as that is preceisely what you will be expected to do for the first thrity years of your arch career---> even more so now that the market has been primed to believe that Architects are nothing more than CAD hungry beasts that sweat CAD details and give them away for free (or even PAY for the opportunity to slave as a CAD Monkey).
m22b honestly you sound like me....don't fall for their lies man! The schools are setup to bait and switch you...get you all high minded thinking you are going to have access to solving problems that are difficult and fun to propose solutions to...when in reality the schools are designed at this point to bait you into falling in love with this ideal in order to FEED you to an already oversaturated market because the profession is now organized like a corporate army where they just throw more CAD Monkeys into the pit in the hope that some poor "intern" at some point might untangle 1 out of ten CAD knots before the project had to go out to bid yesterday!
There are much better avenues to solving important and interesting problems. I ended up doing Construction Management for 2 1/2 years after getting licensed and the pay was twice as good, I was treated with at least 3x as much respect by the firm owners, I was in a management position on site at an earlier ager, and I got to call the shots on construction projects where I also learned about BUILDING in the real world. I swear I learned 1 months worth of CAD Monkey knowledge in 1 day on the job as a Project Manager in CM.
My friend that did law school after undergrad Arch...oh yeah...5 years later he is solving some good problems and gets paid handsomely for his brain...because he has one. Most "designers" simply do not. I wish I had not been so well-intentioned in my justification of how moronic the stooges that fill CAD stations are. But they are. If your IQ is 110 or higher you will most likely just end up having your intelligence insulted for the next thirty years as you are paid 1/3 what you are worth while doing work that is no more meaningful than jsut another monkey flinging poo across your cage (I mean cubicle) at the other.
If your IQ is 110 or above...R_U_N!!!
paul, did you get my email?
It cant be that mindless and miserable... did you not find any job satisfaction from completing a project?
What did you see salaries at for people with 5 and 10 years experience in a small market (1 million person city)
Where are you finding stats about unemployment?
Have you not been able to find a job with another firm or did you simply decide to switch careers?
m22b said, "is unemployment really 50%? Where did you get that?"
Mostly just common sense gleaned from many, many sources, some citable (though I would have to dig a little on the internet to find again), and some are merely anecdotal.
I came across an article about Nevada 1 year ago and it had the guts to call it at 60%...and its only gotten worse there.
In Utah 1 year ago I called an Architect friend who has been around for a long time and he said it was 60% of licensed Archs in the state had been laid off at that time...and it hasn't gotten any better
Florida there was a newspaper article stating 60% unemployment 1 year ago...and it hasn't gotten any better.
I read something last month about Wisconsin in an online newspaper that everybody in a certain big city knew that unemployment was 60% or greater but that nobody in the AIA was talking about it.
Many of my friend in two large metro cities in two totally different states have been laid off, anecdotally in my sphere of influence it seems like its about 50% laid off.
I contacted a couple of firms I have good relationships with to ask if I could help part time unpaid and was told that they don't even have work to keep themselves busy at this point (laid a bunch of people off).
I've been to every firm (about 25? I think) within a 60 mile radius of my hometown and Nobody is hiring (hiring structural engineers here and there but not hiring anybody but 1/2 price CAD jockey's "right now")
I did get a few letters back from various firms...NOT INTERESTED. One firm that I might actually get excited to work at (Big Hospital Architecture) did send me a letter indicating that they'd like to interview me this fall IF things improve in the economy.
I've been hearing for 1.5 years, ever since I've been keeping my ear to the rail, that "things are starting to turn around" like every 3 or 4 months or so. And then we have Obamadingo in Jan saying the meltdown is over and recoery had started.
Yeah right! Show me the money! I'll believe it WHEN I see it...and I ain't seeing it.
But hey! If you have a rich uncle or some other special connection to a gravvy train---> more power to you!
If not and your IQ is over 110 and you value your life more than the next starving artist...R_U_N!!!
Yes m22b...got your email...responding now.
m22b one more thing...(post email) HINT:
DEMOGRAPHICS! (MBA & Healthcare?) though I recently read that an unprecedented # of MBAs are already concentrating in Healthcare so perhaps there might already be oversaturation? But then again, why not work for oneself if there is no leverage to be found for the next ten years anyways?
He's baaack: Paul Revere = Winston Smith.
Paul Revere + babs = love at first sight.
Howard Beale = One Fella = Winston Smith = Obi Wan Kenobi = Leonidas = Benjamin Franklin = Piggy = the names just go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
This is madness!!!
THIS IS SPARTA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YcIQYCkJPI
this one is better imho:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYZRskNV3w
If architecture is reeling, wont development be several times worse?
Sorry m22b. Paul Revere has no idea what hes talking about. Hes having trouble finding work because hes a sociopath and the white hood is going over terribly in job interviews.
You'll be fine. If you love this stuff then do it. Bust your ass, make good work, even when its hard, and things will open up for you. Thats always how these things work, no matter where you go.
Absolutely. Most well grounded, non speculative real estate analysts with stellar track records of forecasting say that the bottom hasn't even BEGUN to fall out of the commercial Real Estate market. That is supposed to start happening anytime now...could be tomorrow or several months or a couple of years but supposedly most commerical loans are about to go into default.
remember that several of the more frequent posters have a vested interest in having as much fresh meat hit the market come post graduation springtime as possible!
The more fresh meat + all the meat desperate to underbid eachother = many, many pathetically underpaid and starving artists (and that is IF you can even find a job with these folks' firms where baiting and switching is the name of the game and eating your own young for breakfast is on the menuy every single day.
I have no economic interest in this issue. Other than working for myself and...well, myself. And keeping my conscience clean by being as honest and transparent as I can.
About 80% of the general popuylation is intimidated by the truth. Sadly, in my experience about 98% of those who have the mentality of "designer" (or at least self purport to) are deathly afraid of the stark naked truth.
So, out come the red herrings, the ad hominem drive by guerilla attacks, and the Alinsky (Rule for Radicals) Zombie tactics.
Trying to keep it real in an extremely superficial profession.
I dont know man. In the real world I know, we work hard and contribute, and you sit in your basement posting racist things on the internet while you live off your wifes paycheck. I think that raises questions about who's afraid of the truth.
You might be drafting bathroom elevations today, but who knows what tomorrow holds? Maybe they'll put you on mill work details, or tagging windows and doors. If you're real lucky, they'll let you assemble the entire schedule.
"And that's when the big bucks start rolling in" - Louie Anderson(RIP) 'Coming to America'.
Want to design right out of college? Well, find a guy who is running a 1 man operation, and do your best to become his sidekick. You'll be designing soon enough...whether you want to or not.
So oe says...and who are you anyways? As is I could really care less what some anonymous douchebag who constantly reverts to attacking me instead of arguing against my propositions.
Um...remember...Alinsky doesn't work on me.
Argue the merits of your propositions or the counter arguments to mine...WITHOUT taking things out of their appropriate context.
I am as non racist or racist as the Founding Fathers. Period. And they made it to Heaven so I don't think thats a bad act to follow.
Either way I won't be apologizing...I do know what I am talking about. Apparently a lot of folks on this website don't even know what thye are talking about...perhaps that is why there is no depth to any of your counter points except perhaps the old, tired, "racist" threat and "my dad can beat up your dad", and "your feet smell so you obviously don't know what you are talking about."
There is no shame in speaking from my experience. Unfortunately for all the zombies on Archinect, I remind you that the galaxy doesn't orbit around your collective fetish for a communisty one world government led by the One nor around the AIA or their arch porno rag Record.
Save your Alinsky tactics for the uninitiated.
I am sorely tempted to post the threat I received from Archinect when ObiWanKenobi was banned not too many moons ago...might make a WHOLE LOT of visitors to Archinect think twice about visiting the site and/or firms allowing access to Archinect.
But perhaps I'll let my lawyer do the talking for me one of these days. That might be more interesting.
Freedom of Speech is under threat but it is still the law of the land...yet.
And I am certain that all you commie lovers most assuradley have a cattle care marked "One Fella and alias'" just for your truly when you plan on shipping me off to the old gas chambers.
Not yet though.
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