So it appears the major news outlets finally woke up this morning to discover something happened this weekend. Youd still never know this thing was still going on today though. I mean I understand, this is a difficult story to tell. Its amorphous, its complicated, everything is hard to confirm, but seriously, this is the most profound, compelling event in the world right now. SHOW IT. Show something! Fucking explain it to people. What you milked Tiger Woods for 3 fucking weeks and you cant show the monumental struggle against oppression of the most important country in the middle east for more than 15 seconds??
On the political implications of the Ashura protests,
"If Rafsanjani decides to take the unprecedented step of coming out against Khamenei, which is not as outlandish of a possibility as it once was prior to Karoubi’s blatant condemnation of the regime last night, it would undoubtedly be a game-changer. Simply put, it would openly signal political abandonment of the regime by the country’s second most powerful figure. If Rafsanjani remains quiet, however, questions will surely begin to be raised as to where his true allegiances lie. Consequently, as the demands of a galvanized and broadening opposition grow, he will arguably be less and less able to hedge his bets."
"Rafsanjani’s public stance one way or another should not be read as the Green movement’s need for leadership, however. This was similarly misinterpreted when questions arose as to Mousavi and Karoubi’s attendance in previous demonstrations. In fact, what makes the Green movement unique from many others is that its grassroots nature allows it to thrive and grow without the need of a single individual leading the way. Current chatter of an imminent national strike being planned – an enormous development if it proves to be true – is just one example of how such a structure allows the opposition movement to organize through a decentralized communication network rather than a rigid hierarchy."
"And so as Tehran faces yet another day of clashes with yesterday’s ashes still smoldering, uncertainty is in the air. Martial law was reportedly declared in Najafabad yesterday. Will the beleaguered security apparatus start to see desertions within its ranks? Will talk of an impending military mutiny against the regime come to fruition? While there are plenty of rumors floating around since yesterday’s tumultuous events, one thing that is certain is that there is no turning back."
Really, I don't. Iran, like so many other middle eastern countries, is a big drama queen.
DO SOMETHING 100% OR GET OVER IT.
I really dislike being called lazy or a fascist because I don't acknowledge every time a bunch of people throw rocks in the street at police as "THE GREATEST FUCKING THING SINCE SLICED BREAD."
You replaced the moderate oppressive, moderately liberal Persians with a bunch of assholes because you couldn't stand royalty. Now you're complaining that your Islamic revolution was too revolutionary.
Yeah, our country probably fucked up Iran beyond repair. But at least we can make a commitment to do something. Even if it means losing.
These protesters should be supported. It takes an incredible amount of courage to do what they're doing.
Is this really a "monumental struggle against oppression of the most important country in the middle east ?" I guess it's depends on how you define monumental.
I'm always supper excited to hear politics being discussed on an ARCHITECT site. Perfect forum guys.
Maybe the media is trying to censor people away from mob protests, because this will only strengthen the mob here too, and mob is capable of a lot of things. There are many angry unemployed people here too, the mob is growing in America and if there will be no better future for us then hell might break loose...
I feel like I dont talk about anything else on this board. :\
So this has nothing to do with the board. I come here because I share a lot of interest, like the news now and then, and there are a lot of really thoughtful interesting people here and diverse backgrounds and knowledge bases. But really honestly, the state of architecture discussion in general is really, profoundly, embarrassingly dull. I hate saying it, because I love architecture, I love making, I love thinking about the work and what it can mean. But as a field, Im utterly unimpressed by anything being talked about recently.
So like this for instance. If you skip ahead to about min. 36 theres a discussion with charles jencks about the state of architecture in 1995. Thats fifteen years ago.
And first of all, I think its transparently, utter, uninformed bullshit. I find myself cringing to see any kind of self-recognition in his face of just how embarrassed he should be about really having almost no real understanding of what hes talking about. Everything is like this glancing pop-bullshit conception of what cosmology is, or what chaos theory really is, let alone what they really might say about architecture or politics or anything else.
Which is bad enough. But lets really search ourselves. Have we made any progress, at all, in fifteen years? beyond even that? If so, I havent seen it. Its still just "its generative!". Theres just zero rigor, zero actual science. Really nothing actually interesting or of any value to society that could even pretend to hold a candle to the kinds of advances people have made in other fields. Frankly its been 15 years of superficial, aesthetic dithering. Architecture has become like some arrogant overprivileged brat not doing their homework and then standing up and trying to give an overwrought bunk presentation on a topic theyve done no research on whatsoever with a strait face.
I mean just think about whats been accomplished in computer science, particle physics, cognitive science, biology, sociology, and look at us. It fucking pathetic.
Zen I think its just that Orochi is just much closer to the norm than I am. (S)hes right. Nobody cares.
Its hard for me to watch. Because I remember Rwanda, and the congo. I remember the lead up to the Iraq war. I do understand it, at some level, americans just dont give fuck about non-americans. [especially if their skin color is different, *cough*] So even when really, hugely momentously unjust things happen in the world, like the french and the US and the UN and the whole international community turning their backs on millions of people being slaughtered in central africa, or an administration forging a reason to invade another country and kill most of a million people, nobody can really be fucked to pay attention until its too late.
And thats exactly whats going on now. I mean a nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran in the next 5 years is a really, hugely genuine possibility. We could be looking at 10s of millions dead. All because fucking netanyahu had a bug up his ass about settlements and when Iranians cried out to get rid of the fucking fascist megalomaniacs running their country into oblivion americans were too busy obsessing over how many white chicks tiger woods banged to notice or care.
The reason I don't care is that anytime we (American, The West) interfere with anything... is that we always get blamed, lambasted or generally treated like jerks if we try to help or if we don't help.
The article I linked to shows exactly that-- Americans getting blamed for a protests most of us weren't aware of and or disinterested in.
The reason I don't care or feign not caring because it is easier to maintain neutrality and objectivity by not getting sucked up into every little conflict, whether it be emotionally or logically or morally.
We help? We're white devils or infidels or "sefeeds" or "Khawaga" or "Firangi" or "Kafir."
We don't help? We're insensitive white devils or infidels or "sefeeds" or "Khawaga" or "Firangi" or "Kafir."
It may matter to you. But these things are often "boy who cry wolf" scenarios. People give up on their protests and revolutions and we keep getting dragged into the next rumbling. It'd be great that you actually try to topple to government and give us some notice.
I agree with oe. It's strange when CNN thinks it's ratings drop is because they are not showing enough tabloid news. They don't realize that it's their horrific news coverage that makes people annoyed.
How long apart are Iranian elections? I feel horrible for those protesters. Cheated and then shot at.
I didnt mean to imply that was your motivation oroch. Im just venting again.
I would mention though that Iranians are a savvy crew. They werent fooled when Ahmadinejad tried to blame him stealing the election on us and they arent fooled by this either. Its tough to claim foriegn assassins killed Ali Mousavi when youve got video of Iranian police vehicles running over crowds of people.
I just tend to think its more important to identify oneself as a member of humanity than a member of a country. Loosely lumping together "Us" and "Them" as if the people and the government are the same thing in some permanent opposition, or even different groups of people within a society like that can be pretty ham-fisted. I dont really even know what you mean by "go all the way". What, like militarize? Raid armories and start a shooting war in the streets? Strap bombs to yourself if that doesnt work? Watch families arrested and tortured to death? Im sorry, but that just really doesnt seem like the best idea on any grounds. I woulda though thats what we learned from Gandhi and King? This is a political war, wresting the mantle of real justice and moral authority. I would say the people fighting right now are doing just about everything humanly imaginable to make that happen right now.
These things take time. The 79 revolution was years in the making, and were already seeing police losing street battles, refusing orders to fire on innocent people, the revolutionary guard losing the message war. We can at least stand as fellow human beings on the side of those fighting for their civil rights.
khawaja is actually somewhat of an honorable title. old school men in the levant call each other that all the time and franji is very merely descriptive. ridiculous to equate them with "kefir".
Orochi The reason I don't care or feign not caring because it is easier to maintain neutrality and objectivity by not getting sucked up into every little conflict, whether it be emotionally or logically or morally.
when one becomes a "we" expressing how "we get dragged" and so on, that is not a result of neutrality.
in any case, the only possible manner of being generous, rather than that inane "neutraityl" that really neutralizes itself of any meaning, is either to be totally sociopathic..which obviously "We" aren't or all lovey dovey humane..whereas "We" are more interested in being snarky and petty.
And thats exactly whats going on now. I mean a nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran in the next 5 years is a really, hugely genuine possibility. We could be looking at 10s of millions dead.
10s of millions dead? we should be so lucky...that is a lot of carbon footprints eliminated!
i don't see why one needs to cite ghandi or king (who supported zionism) in order to beseech others to be humane. also, just because colin powell is black, don't mean he's a gift to hunameness/humanity (this harkens back to an older comment of yours, oe) . on par, obama, who gets a nobel peace prize for his skin colour and his speech as he allows his own army to kill innocents in afghanistan and iraq.
what a topsy turvey world where the muddle of words garbs the clarity of action.
Im talking about people who got it done, people who developed methods that actually improved the situations they were working within, rather than creating ever-escalating cycles of violence that make the situation worse. I think Gandhi and King were the best examples, but I did also mention Mandela and Shirin Ebadi. Given how they felt about South Africa, I am quite certain they would be the most vocal critics of the state of affairs in palestine, which is in most ways much more brutal than South Africa was.
Trust me, I am all with you on Israel.
I understand your objection to Obama and Powell being on that list, especially given recent escalations in Afghanistan and Yemen. Going in and rooting these guys out is an ugly, ugly job, but unfortunately, there just isnt anyone else who can do it. You cant allow people to blow up planes full of innocent people. In Obama and Powells defense, they are people though who, at the very least, have enormously tempered the methods and strategies the US uses in the world. Theyve been hugely more specific, and sophisticated about the way force is used. I know this will probably be of little comfort to you, but its difficult to understate how important the shift is to a policy focused on long-term peace, stability and ultimately the preservation of life from a policy essentially focused on enriching US companies.
Youre certainly on firm ground criticizing a lot of things that were done with them at the till, but if you spend an afternoon listening to people raving on talk radio or fox news, [or the casual indifference of posters above], and recognize just how many americans that represents, it might let you know just how difficult a task that shift really is.
By The gandhi and co I meant to say that humaneness doesn't need superstardom, as super as they are. Only common sense needed. Obama and Powell and co, really I don't care. In effect, he'll, obama, lead to more deaths. Innocents on both sides; the boys and girls in the us army as well. More absolutely, an armed world that speaks of peace is a hypocritical one. And those who pretend to be neutral in the face of these kinds of deaths are also hypocrites.
Haha, my point was simply that the US is fighting a ware with great restraint. And it is terribly hard to win any war while personally restraining oneself.
For the total number of people involved in the US' "tour of the Middle East," this war isn't particularly bloody-- meaning for the time and proportion of people, it has relatively minimal casualties.
However, it is an extremely brutal war... savagely brutal. And the blame for that purely isn't one side or another. The US surely doesn't have clean hands either. We've been pretty awful ourselves.
But if people want to bitch about causalities, loss of life and other things... well, I'm sure someone in Washington can really give something for everyone to cry about.
I agree with you oe, it doesn't matter if we help or not help, we are still getting all the blame.
The problem, I think is with the way we help, because the only way we know of helping is with guns and bombs. We must change the way we view "help", not just destroy a country and leave it and say "mission accomplished", but I am not saying rebuild the country either. There must be a better solution, instead of fighting the army, just take down the leader, 1 or 2 snipers can do a perfect job.
Well in Iran at least, I think were helping in the best way I can imagine; not through bombs or assassinations or funding violence, but through technology. Right now cell phones and the internet are the biggest threats the hardliners face.
It will obviously take more than that for people to get real democracy, but that much is up to them. We can at least bear witness and offer what support we can as fellow human beings.
effectively, oe, and after reading your analysis of Obama's politiking, i find that your stance doesn't differ much from Orochi's. s\he suggests the escalations possible (possible yet avoided) vis a vis his/her hyperbole (possibility of millions of deaths)....you also mention the avoidance of such escalations (avoided yet possible).
you both have not condemned any and all usage of military action. one gets the sense that you would ideally like that there be no such thing, but realistically you understand the need for it, be it mitigated through a reasonable and economical usage of force "for peace".
the way i see it, whatever the difference of US aims are in afghanistan and in iraq ,pre-Obama (bush) and concurrent with obama's presidency, the US military is still killing innocents such as that afghani family&friends who were holding a marriage ceremony. and the more this happens, the more "terrorists"the US will breed for itself.
the difference between bush and obama is mostly rhetorical. the former was fetishistic and hyperbolic and the latter is meant to sound measured and equivalent to the status on ground. however, and this is why i use the word effectively, i see not such a grand difference of effect so far. in fact, Obama is condemned (by the previous office and by his own), whatever his good intentions/rhetoric would have us believe, to being an unjust- war president...
goliath cannot suddenly morph into david. the US external realpolitik, whether it is fronted by a black or white or red or yellow or brown face, has proved to be morally corrupt and inhumane. you cannot rehabilitate colonialism by still being in other peoples' homes and being party to their domestic disputes. you either recognize that you are still a colonial force, if you want to be at least honest with your own self, or you just get the fuck out. just because you have an afroamerican president DOES NOT UNDO ABU GHREIB, YOUR MURDER (SUBSIDIZED BY YOUR TAX MONEY), YOUR GOVERNMENT'S FINANCIAL COMMITMENT (BLACK FACED OR WHITE FACED) TO SUPPORT OF A RACIST ISRAEL...
your benetton poster hallmark story president does not undo all this.
hows that for hyperbolic "You" vs "Us"
:o)
as for that "pressure on israel" bit. if thats all your president can do, then its not proof of how strong he is, as you farcically analyze, but of how doomed and weak he, or any US president is, to unacceptably compromise with US' racist fuck buddy.
Look, theres a difference between being critical, even vociferously so, and being intentionally intractable. If thats truly how you feel, then youre really no different from rednecks in this country watching fox news all day. You simply arent looking at both sides of this thing.
Ive said several times, I think Israel is as bad or worse than south africa ever was. Fortunately, increasingly, thats the way western countries are seeing it as well. Not as a 'strong ally' and 'the only vibrant democracy in the middle east', but as an embarrassing liability. in 70 years thats never happened in the US, until Barack Obama. Netanyahu isnt running with the ball, hes throwing a temper tantrum, because for the first time in Israels history were more on the side of Palastinians than his government. Now its true, we havent been able to stop him from building in east Jerusalem. We do however have a standing order that if Israel tries to strike Iran through Iraq we will shoot them down. I also wouldnt be fooled that the UN could file war crimes charges against Israel without our consent.
But frankly, and this is what I dont think youre acknowledging, our job here would be a lot easier if we didnt have him to deal with, and we wouldnt have him to deal with if Hamas wasnt lobbing rockets indiscriminately into civilian neighborhoods. Israels conduct in the Gaza war last year was fucking inhuman, but Hamas wanted that fight. Theyre BOTH at fault here, and worse, they BOTH seem to have a vested political interest in the war continuing.
This is extraordinarily difficult, and the risks are enormous, which is why it doesnt happen overnight. At the absolute least though, this new US administration seems finally intent on taking the steps necessary to sincerely solve these problems.
You argue the United States is killing innocents. I'll wholeheartedly admit that. I'll even go farther to point out the US has probably caused more deaths, directly or indirectly than any other actor in the last 50 years. But theres an implication there that if the US wasnt active in the world everything would be honky-dory, and thats clearly false. I mean look at central africa. In 94' the US and the international made the cowardly and politically insipid decision to reserve involvement, to turn the other way, and over the course of 8 years more people died in Rwanda and Burundi and Zaire than during the holocaust. We should all feel incredible shame over letting that happen. As terrible as much of what is going on in Paksitan and Afghanistan, the numbers of civilians killed by the US is nowhere near the numbers killed in bombings by members of the taliban on their own people, and pales next to the numbers that would certainly die in an all-out pakistani civil war, let alone a potential nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India.
I truly do understand your concerns as an idealist. Ideally no one would die. But people who run countries can think in terms of gross costs. They are forced, by the responsibility of their office, the responsibilities entailed by the power they hold, and the reality of the situations they inherit, to consider the net costs and benefits of their actions. Dozens or hundreds killed by action simply does not measure against 10s of thousands or even millions killed by inaction.
The primary difference I see between Obama and Bush (or more accurately Cheney) is not just rhetorical, but philosophical, and strategic. Its both the ends Obama seeks, and the metrics by which progress is measured; namely the net preservation of life and peace over the potential for economic exploitation. Where the Cheney machine, quite transparently I think, sought essentially a cold-war-esque strategic and economic advantage for the US (ie. capitalization of oil markets) at the willful expense of human life, the Obama administration has made actual resolution of conflict its central goal, really for the first time since world war 2. I think a final awareness has emerged that in the long term, we simply cannot afford to be the lone world police over continuing conflicts on this scale, that the global prevention of mass violent death and conflict must be a shared responsibility.
Again, while the bombs are still falling, I fully understand your skepticism. Id just hope that youd be willing to reserve some judgement until some of these strategic efforts have had time to bear fruit.
firstly, thank you for comparing me to red necks. because really, i'm an all-the-way nationalist who barely knows his/her own language let alone others', who doesn't travel and encouter other cultures and basically hates everyone else who doesn't have a red...well in my case, according to the season, creamy tawny to olive to light brown to golden chocolate, neck.
i admit, i don't like american news. but thats not for their politics as much as for their hyper-affected tv hosts with their spastic toothsome smiles and their disturbing manner of addressing each other on camera. who needs Ringu when we have those scary people. anyway...i am not an "idealist" in a realist's world. i believe in the right to put up a resistance. hamas is a grassroot organization, whatever its religious background, resulting directly from israel's occupation. you tell me...why should hamas NOT fire into israel? there lie its homes and farms that the zionists stole. don't blame david for goliath's doings. and this was only possible due, historically, to the british and american support in the first place.
in fact, i do see more than one side. i see your earnest desire to believe that Obama's ability to make a good change. we differ on evaluating how much of a change constitutes an actual change. i don't care about "yes we can" slogans...these are, for me, as plastic as those telly hosts you breed in your country :o)
don't get me wrong though. i have no hatred for americans or for the israelis. i equally have no overwhelming love for arabs or iranians. its not a matter of whom i am ethnically, religiously or otherwisely affiliating with. but whats happening because of your country's actions and because of israel's actions is thoroughly unjust and it takes so much more than black faced nuances and subtelties.
its a very simple demand really: "please, just get the fuck out and stop meddling"
or does it take attaching it to a hurdled shoe to get the message across.
and what now? iran? yemen?for the one head you cut in a middle east country, another two will sprout in the other. do not hellp!
and again, what sort of help can be received from a nation that is founded on the very principle of land theft and genocide of people it deemed subhuman.
Im Irish and penobscot. You dont have to remind me about our friends the "nativists". ;)
Yo and nobody is gonna invade Iran or Yemen. I know thats what theyre saying on a lot of arab news but its not going to happen. Some poor bastard lit his underwear on fire on an airplane so things are tense, but trust me, we couldnt send a troop to another country if we wanted to.
i admit, i don't like american news. but thats not for their politics as much as for their hyper-affected tv hosts with their spastic toothsome smiles and their disturbing manner of addressing each other on camera. who needs Ringu when we have those scary people.
Haha join the club man. I think I made almost this exact comparison to my dad like a week ago. Worse than the creepy smiling luridness though for me is just the sheer stupidity of it. I think 80 percent of the international coverage this week seems to be just trying to figure out where Yemen is on a map.
why should hamas NOT fire into israel?
Because its counterproductive. This is what I was saying about Iran. As soon as you make unarmed people your target you throw away the most important thing a resistance movement needs: moral legitimacy. And the the world wants to give it to them right now. For the first time ever, a US administration wants to give it to them. But at some point a compromise must be struck. Yes, much of the land thats now Israel was created through forced evacuation. More of it was taken when Arab nationalists tried to invade and got pushed back. A great deal of it was made by palestinians making willful sales to jewish immigrants. As Im sure you know, its fucking complicated. But Palestinians arent going to get all of it back, and the more they make violence their central method, the more they stoop to that, the less they can hope to achieve.
If they want anything, theyve got to put forward real, equitable solutions rather than intentionally intractable ones.
I completely hear you when you say "Get the fuck out." Believe it or not, wed like nothing more. I dont know if youve noticed but weve got something of a cash-flow problem. The American people are tired of being the world's sherif. Ending funding to rebel groups in Iran was one of the first things Obama did in office. We are getting the fuck out in Iraq, and Afghanistan isnt far behind. Fall 11' isnt a completely arbitrary date, Obama wants half our people out by the next election.
In the mean time though, Israel and hamas and Iran have to be talked down. That takes some "meddling". Some people genuinely want peace, others just need a boogie-man to keep themselves in power, and unfortunately right now all three of the above seem to fit into the latter category. Despite what a lot of people think, we cant actually force Israel to do much of anything. If france wanted to force people into clusterfuck shithole ghettos we couldnt do much about that either. So its a matter of leverage, gaming them best we can to do what they need to do in spite of themselves.
Unfortunately, when it comes to Afghanistan and Isreal and Iraq, youre right, we are complicit in creating a lot of these problems. Bush is a fuckwad. Reagan was worse. But unfortunately that also makes it our responsibility to leave these situations better than we found them, to build political solutions and extract ourselves in a way that doesnt on top of everything else leave a genocide in our wake.
whether you think it counterproductive or not, its their right to resist in the manner they see fit. hizbollah hit the nail on the head, israel only gives way by force. otherwise, israel would be still occupying latge expanses of southern lebanon. anyway, it is not my wish to rationalize their manner of resistance with you. this is THEIR choice and by forcing yourself, rather the actual victims, as judge and jury of what is productive and acceptable, into the middle of it (although financially and institutionally, your country is ultimately extremely biased), you are only peddling delusions to yourself and to others. the solution has always been obvious.
oeDespite what a lot of people think, we cant actually force Israel to do much of anything
only because your country is so thoroughly enmeshed, institutionally, in financially and morally supporting israel. by virtue of capitalism and the vested interest of powerful and rich pro-israel jews and associated christian zionists. many many of the companies that feed your babies (and ours, since the world is largely open to american products), that produce your clothes, your computers, your electrical appliances..hell, maybe even your very electricity...are run and largely owned by these figures. you are, incapable, to afford justice. your country, willingly or not, therefore is bipolar. it wishes to play the fair judge/jury when it has been subsidizing the criminal. unfortunately, there are far more factors at play that exceed, in importance, the rhetoric and indeed actions of your current president.
as for the palestinian sale of lands to zionists, i think you will find that it is even more complicated than your version of complicated. most palestinians were under feudal land owners, some of who were not even palestinians (such as the lebanese sursock family) and those transactions that happened where with absentee land owners. palestiians were, largely, victims of a transaction that happened between capitalism in the form of the JNF and the like, and british mandate/ottoman feudalism. regardless, palestinians where expelled from their own land that had belonged to them prior to feudalism and to capitalism!
Both of Amercian and Middle East people are victims of unsound capitalism. America has printed too many dallars relative to commodity. That is why USA has to rely on Oil which is replacing the role Gold had played.
Thus, USA is relying on other country's resource most of which are poor countries, and most of rich countries are relying on USA, and most of poor countries are relying on the rich countries...the circle goes on and on...In this cycle no one seems able to escape. That is why the situation is really complex and seems unsoluble.
Hamas and Israel and Iran...all of them are actually helping American army stays in Middle East area. (Hamas') terrorism and struggles in that area are the only excuse US army can stay in that area.
I am not blaming either America and Middle East people and I know both of them have sacrificed something for the rest of the world.
Rather than blaming, I am saying we need to help each other.
whether you think it counterproductive or not, its their right to resist in the manner they see fit.
NO, it ISNT. Its not their right to deliberately target unarmed people. Its not Israels right to do that either, nor the US, nor anyone else. There are international laws, and one doesnt get to break them because theyre the underdog. When they do they immolate their own credibility and leverage on the issues they care most about. Thats what Israel is finding out in the last year. And quite to Hizbollas contrary, its quite clear that historically being attacked is the central vehicle by which Israel has expanded its territory, as excuse and justification for further abuse. To be quite frank, palestinians owe nearly as much of their suffering to the political motivations of Syria, Egypt, Iran and their own leaders as they do to Israel. Theyve been exploited by everyone for political gain.
only because your country is so thoroughly enmeshed, institutionally, in financially and morally supporting israel. by virtue of capitalism and the vested interest of powerful and rich pro-israel jews and associated christian zionist.
and this is where I think you end up really far afield. Yes, there are institutional and economic ties between the US and Israel. But they arent any greater or different than we have with England or China or Japan or Saudi Arabia or Sweden. Its a global community. Its based on treaties and its based on wealth, and Israel is a part of it. But they are actually an extraordinarily small part of it. I really hate to break it to you guys, but there simply is no big jewish conspiracy. It doesnt exist. There are a lot of very smart, very rich Jewish people. There are many many more very smart, very rich christians and moslems and agnostics and hundus and athiests, and everyone of them is really only out for their own interests. The worst thing we have going on is a bunch of cold-war dinosaurs who just dont know what to do with themselves without an evil empire to fight. To be very honest, most americans could care less about problems in Palestine and Israel. And the only reason the US government does is because we dont want to play referee on a nuclear war in the next 5 years. That is the human and economic disaster were fighting so hard to prevent. Israel is just an inherited liability in the middle of it.
conspiracy or not, the US has been giving israel about 2-3 billion dollars in direct aid and approximately another 2-3 in indirect aid ANNUALLY. each year, we give them more money than all of africa and latin america combined. think about that. the US is responsible for 2% of israel's GDP.
"A third difference is the sheer amount of aid the U.S. gives to Israel, unparalleled in the history of U.S. foreign policy. Israel usually receives roughly one third of the entire foreign aid budget, despite the fact that Israel comprises less than .001 of the worldÿs population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. In other words, Israel, a country of approximately 6 million people, is currently receiving more U.S. aid than all of Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined when you take out Egypt and Colombia."
its not TECHNICALLY a conspiracy: aipac is the strongest and most ruthless lobby in existence. they quite honestly have bought nearly every elected official in the country, and are therefore quite literally have a strong grip on our government. thats why netanyahu can get away with the US' "pressure" on israel and the settlements. israel can give a fuck. they know that no matter what, we will not ever make any drastic moves and that they will continue to get our tax payer money and weapons. obama has no power over them. when he first got elected i naively thought that MAYBE something would change.....rhetoric only gets you so far.
Well thats not technically so. Im sure I dont know how you got 1/3 from 2.9 billion out of 50 billion total annually. Its actually half what we give africa. Its also clever of you to take out Egypt, considering we give them almost as much, and that you leave out Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, Gaza, the West Bank, Pakistan, Turkey, and Lebanon. In fact, all told, we give five times what we give to Israel to predominantly islamic countries. But I guess we can chalk that up to the all-powerful pro-islam lobby in this country.
Also, just to put things in perspective, 2 billion is the cost of a B2 bomber. The total defense spending is 600 to 800 billion each year.
Now dont get me wrong, I dont understand why any fully developed nation needs a dime, let alone 3rd on the list. Whether its missile defense to balance against Iran or whatever, a calculation has been made that I dont think is productive or helpful. Still, grounds for belief in some ruthless global conspiracy it is not.
those numbers dont tell the whole story. first of all, from your list, jordan got 500 million. egypt is 50 times the size of israel, literally, and gets 1 billion. pakistan is 40 times bigger, has approximately 180 MILLION people, and got 950 million in 07. israel has 7.5 million people, with 2.5 billion dollars of direct aid. why? youre right, it is FULLY DEVELOPED COUNTRY. tell me how this makes sense.
and given the fact we are occupying iraq and afghanistan, i would expect a remarkable amount of money to go to those regions.
Well its clearly not going to feed hungry people, so Im not certain how the population matters. It doesnt take much creativity to imagine how 2 and a half billion could get eaten up in missile defense though.
Conspiracy was not my word but yours. By assuming that I have conspiracy in mind, you are readily associating particular tropes as being within a meme’s neighbourhood when, in fact, you have the wrong address. The zionist plan had already been actualized (if we overlook the idea of a Greater Israel). The conspiracy achieved its fruition with the Balfour declaration and the zoning of the Sykes-Picot accord; what we live with today is the aftermath of conspiracy. Post-conspiracy rather with the seemingly pluralistic entanglement of sympathies that normalize the status of Israel as a country like any other. You cite Egypt; well as shitty as their human rights record is, they did not persecute and expel native peoples through murder, terror and deceit to replace their majority or subjugate the remaining. And you know what, as a side note…the day Egypt actually gets its act together and starts to actively help Palestinians, rather than aiding in penning them in, US aid to Egypt might very well cease. Egypt, like many other “Arab” states, squeaks the way the US likes. Don’t get me started on the Arab states!
Others here are giving you the official direct aid figures; they are more knowledgeable than me and I don’t really fancy going over your country’s budget. But I am positive that many of the jets and bombs that killed Lebanese kids by the hordes should have also carried “messages of love” from the US. But besides the official aid records, how many American (and European) companies run their business from Palestinian X-villages that were razed to the ground, expelling the thousands of villagers who still are around to testify to Israel’s terror. The resultant revenue from such misadventures must dwarf official direct aid.
What about the many who bring Aipac and co.’s influence on U.S. politics, both externally and internally, to light? Do you readily overlook this, simply because your president has a black(ish) face and is a good rhetorician? You’re not watching a Morgan Freeman movie here! Dammit, it has become near impossible to boycott products churned out by Israel-sponsors; fine, Stabucks’ coffee is shit…but Intel chips? I’m using one now! Their Middle East headquarters are based in one or two of those ghost villages that have been turned into Israeli industrial parks.
Israel has proven to abuse negotiations, it abuses negotiations to forestall, to allow it to expand and strengthen its hold. You say that by firing into Israel, Hamas goes against international rules. Israel’s very formation goes against those very same rules; its continual colonization of others’ lands goes against those rules. Armed resistance is a right for someone who has, undeservedly, murdered family and confiscated lands and whose enemy has been internationally absolved of condemnation by the dominant global powers, whether you think it unproductive or unbecoming to your palette.
Lastly, I want to confess my own schism. As I said before, I have no hatred for Israelis. By nature, I don’t want young Israeli men and women dying either. I believe in the fundamental evil of all weaponry and that hatred attends a chance to wield it. By rationale, though, I do not see how to accept the subversion of a Palestinian’s right to defend his/her home for the sake of an inert pacifism or “neutrality”. In fact, given my nature, it would be selfish of me to be neutral. I only wish (puerile, like all wishes) that we all live in peace. I think nationalism (Zionism is Jewish nationalism) sucks and I hope (puerile, like all hopes) to one day be able cross all so-called boundaries without restrictions and that you would stop being American, Arab, Israeli and I would stop being Whateverian (and that sounds Armenian). But in the meantime, when all humans wane off ownership equally (i.e. this is neither my home nor yours but is its own) and we all tread lightly from birth to death, then I can understand self-defense.
Look Im not saying its fair. It clearly, clearly is not. But you must admit there is plenty of blame to go around. The word conspiracy was mine, but I get a little worried when people start going all the way back to 1916 and betraying a kind of pathological fixation on Jewish influence on US politics. Thats very generous you dont wish Israelis to die, but taking a position that all land held by Jews is illegitimate, that Israels very existence is a crime, implies that really, you dont want Jews in the middle east at all. Theres an implication that the current state of affairs was somehow secretly engineered by a shadowy group behind the scenes of ever level of European, US and Soviet politics for the last 100 years. And that just isnt how it happened. Thats not history, its paranoia. In the first half of the century the jewish people were under enormous, genuine threat of actual extermination. Many of them suffered incredible cruelty and betrayal in their home country. The early zionists didnt trust anyone and given what they had gone through its difficult to blame them. And so a series of really dumb decisions were made in europe because they couldnt deal with their own problems. Remember both Jewish and arab nationalists were fighting against the brits at the time. Until 48 it was just a bunch of conflicting people thrown into a mess. It wasnt until the brits pulled out and palestines neighbors invaded and were pushed back that real territorial borders formed.
Its incredibly unfair that palastinians had their land sold from underneath them, and that they were later played by the ambitions of Jordan and Egypt into a defeat from which they would never recover, and that the Israelis could not muster in themselves the compassion and wisdom to do what their former oppressors could not. But what was done was done. Now is now. All those people are dead. I mean if a bunch of texans decided they were tired of having a town next to them full of mexican immigrants who had come illegally a hundred years ago, you wouldnt say it was ok for texans to shell the town would you? To blow up busses with kids on it? Youd call them racists, and sociopaths, and youd be right.
What Im hoping, what the US has hoped for the last 20 years or so, is that these people can fucking finally for the good of their people make a goddamn compromise already. We dont want to have to mitigate this agonizing battle of mutual ethnic cleansing anymore. Be Nelson Mandela! Take some responsibility! Put forward a fucking proposal that doesnt include the total eradication of the other! something both sides can live with. And I know. Netanyahu is a fuckwad, hes being completely unreasonable. Thats the PERFECT time to draw some contrast and get the world on your side to push back.
What about the many who bring Aipac and co.’s influence on U.S. politics, both externally and internally, to light? Do you readily overlook this, simply because your president has a black(ish) face and is a good rhetorician?
Im fully aware Aipac is powerful. But I think you dont realize that all lobbyists in the US are powerful. Theyve got nothing on the Oil lobby, or the Agro lobby, or the insurance or coal or bankers lobbies. Theyre actually distinctly less potent than the LGBT lobby, and they cant even get dont ask dont tell repealed. For all the talk, Aipac really only has influence in New York and Florida. I'll give you, Florida is a swing state, but still, that puts Aipac right about next to Black Ministers in terms of total influence.
Much closer to the truth is we need oil. And before the Iraq invasion, Israel was the only place we could stage missiles right next to it.
I get a little worried when people start going all the way back to 1916 and betraying a kind of pathological fixation on Jewish influence on US politics
I doubt you get worried, otherwise if you keep worrying about every person citing events from not-such-a-distant history, you must have caused yourself a hernia or an ulcer. You use too many patronizing in-fill rhetorical clichés. Anyway, the influence of Zionism to realize Israel on Palestinian lands on the UK then American policy is historical fact, in fact…it is even tautological (after all, this is what the Zionist agenda was all about), whether I stretch back or not. Also I mentioned “pro-Israeli” Jewish and Christian Zionists; I have no qualms about one’s religion whether they worship a firmamental deity, the clay suck to their soles or their very selves. I have not expressed any antipathy towards Jews and Judaism. Kindly stop insidiously insinuating that I am an anti-Jewish, if not anti-Semite (which would be impossible, I am semitic). this is very generous that you don’t want Israelis do die
Again, you’re being patronizing and sarcastic. Do you wish to really read what I have to write and/or say, or do you merely wish to state your opinion and insult me? No, I’m not generous. Its not an issue of morality, it’s a feeling. People killing each other scares me, very precisely. I won’t use bullshit words like “disgusts, repels, . ..”. It’s that simple. But I said, I understand Hamas’ actions. You thus have it in reverse. Morally, I don’t find it objectionable; I am not at all “generous” and you cannot, therefore, insinuate that I am being a hypocrite. The schism I pointed out to is between the moral and existential. implies that really, you don’t want Jews in the middle east
I suspect that you are addressing your own discursive ghosts, rather than me. No, I did not imply this. What I don’t want is “Jewish State” for two reasons, one of which applies equally to Iran, Saudi Arabia and other such Middle Eastern countries. But the more significant reason is that the legalistic and socioeconomic set-up of a decidedly Jewish state would preclude the rights of people who were native to those very lands prior to the relatively very recent usurpation. What I want is a country (even a larger Levantine region, no boundaries no restrictions) where Arabs, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews, Armenians, Kurds…etc..can all live in a region that is not identifiably prejudiced towards one group. You compared me to a red neck a couple of posts above; it appears your proclivity to lampoon me with your own assumptions about me, someone who doesn’t play a tune you perhaps recognize, is more red neckish. My qualm is with Zionism, rabid nationalism and with your country’s warmongering. But I already know, you work in Pavlovian ways, oe, you will see those titles flashing out from the body of the text then, again, you will find a way to portray me as a pathological quasi-red neck. Theres an implication that the current state of affairs were somehow secretly engineered by a shadowy group…behind the scenes of every level of European, US and Soviet politics …etc
Did I say behind every scene of every level? Palestine, ie the Brown area, was given to the Zionists because of the influence of high flying Zionists and the strategic advantage gaining an allies-friendly buffer zone. It was due to both a meeting of
in the first half of the century, jewish people were under enormous…suffered incredibly….etc
Kindly don’t regurgitate and lecture me on common knowledge. Spare me your missionary altruism, I don’t need to be educated on the most infamous event of the modern European history. The topic is not the Shoah it’s the Naqba; its sadly ironic that the first should fuel the latter, but the victims of the latter were not responsible for the victimization of the former. You should be, as I am, very perplexed by how surviving victims of the Shoah would allow, subsidize and actualize the Naqba…but not accepting it as an alibi for the suffering of Palestinians. What..are Jews really more worthy and deserving of being human than Palestinians? Really, your thoughts gravitate towards clichés like water towards drainage holes. series of dumb decisions were made in europe
Ah, well. Naught cutsie Europe. Uh its ok, we can forgi ve dumb decisions, not deceitful colonizing ones. but what was done was done
No, actually, its still being done. Perhaps you ARE being suckered in by Fox news but you think yourself a bit cleverer by half. that the PERFECT time to draw some contrast and get the world back on your side to push back!
Perhaps if “you” , ie the US, [b]lay off[/i], “we” would be able to push back. And stop fucking calling me a whole nation by addressing me as “you”. I keep on saying “your country” and you keep on calling me “you”. they’re actually less potent than the LGBT lobby
Firstly, the LGBT are there to secure their rights…not to secure others’ rights for themselves! And is that why the LGBT still struggles with basic equalities like marriage, whereas, obviously, pro-Israel lobbyists seem to be all happy-go-lucky. Perhaps OneFella4 was right (scary) in a manner that s/he might object to, but perhaps in your country, some Animals are more equal than others.
The Iranian Green Movement
Another very violent day in Iran..
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6969055.ece
Andrew Sullivan aggregates some of the last few days events,
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/
And once again, the completely self-absorbed american media sleeps through the most important story of the year.
To anyone there, good luck guys. Stay safe.
is the thread from earlier this summer discussing events right after the election.
Nomad, any chance you are still around? Hope everything worked out with the school.
So it appears the major news outlets finally woke up this morning to discover something happened this weekend. Youd still never know this thing was still going on today though. I mean I understand, this is a difficult story to tell. Its amorphous, its complicated, everything is hard to confirm, but seriously, this is the most profound, compelling event in the world right now. SHOW IT. Show something! Fucking explain it to people. What you milked Tiger Woods for 3 fucking weeks and you cant show the monumental struggle against oppression of the most important country in the middle east for more than 15 seconds??
Its fucking embarrassing.
Anyway, thank god for the net.
Ali Mousavi's body stolen from the hospital by police,
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-iran-protests29-2009dec29,0,3985205.story
On the political implications of the Ashura protests,
"If Rafsanjani decides to take the unprecedented step of coming out against Khamenei, which is not as outlandish of a possibility as it once was prior to Karoubi’s blatant condemnation of the regime last night, it would undoubtedly be a game-changer. Simply put, it would openly signal political abandonment of the regime by the country’s second most powerful figure. If Rafsanjani remains quiet, however, questions will surely begin to be raised as to where his true allegiances lie. Consequently, as the demands of a galvanized and broadening opposition grow, he will arguably be less and less able to hedge his bets."
"Rafsanjani’s public stance one way or another should not be read as the Green movement’s need for leadership, however. This was similarly misinterpreted when questions arose as to Mousavi and Karoubi’s attendance in previous demonstrations. In fact, what makes the Green movement unique from many others is that its grassroots nature allows it to thrive and grow without the need of a single individual leading the way. Current chatter of an imminent national strike being planned – an enormous development if it proves to be true – is just one example of how such a structure allows the opposition movement to organize through a decentralized communication network rather than a rigid hierarchy."
"And so as Tehran faces yet another day of clashes with yesterday’s ashes still smoldering, uncertainty is in the air. Martial law was reportedly declared in Najafabad yesterday. Will the beleaguered security apparatus start to see desertions within its ranks? Will talk of an impending military mutiny against the regime come to fruition? While there are plenty of rumors floating around since yesterday’s tumultuous events, one thing that is certain is that there is no turning back."
http://www.thenewestdeal.org/2009/12/does-ashura-mark-beginning-of-end.html
I'm sorry but I don't care.
Really, I don't. Iran, like so many other middle eastern countries, is a big drama queen.
DO SOMETHING 100% OR GET OVER IT.
I really dislike being called lazy or a fascist because I don't acknowledge every time a bunch of people throw rocks in the street at police as "THE GREATEST FUCKING THING SINCE SLICED BREAD."
You replaced the moderate oppressive, moderately liberal Persians with a bunch of assholes because you couldn't stand royalty. Now you're complaining that your Islamic revolution was too revolutionary.
Yeah, our country probably fucked up Iran beyond repair. But at least we can make a commitment to do something. Even if it means losing.
Well, that pretty myopic.
These protesters should be supported. It takes an incredible amount of courage to do what they're doing.
Is this really a "monumental struggle against oppression of the most important country in the middle east ?" I guess it's depends on how you define monumental.
I'm always supper excited to hear politics being discussed on an ARCHITECT site. Perfect forum guys.
Maybe the media is trying to censor people away from mob protests, because this will only strengthen the mob here too, and mob is capable of a lot of things. There are many angry unemployed people here too, the mob is growing in America and if there will be no better future for us then hell might break loose...
I feel like I dont talk about anything else on this board. :\
So this has nothing to do with the board. I come here because I share a lot of interest, like the news now and then, and there are a lot of really thoughtful interesting people here and diverse backgrounds and knowledge bases. But really honestly, the state of architecture discussion in general is really, profoundly, embarrassingly dull. I hate saying it, because I love architecture, I love making, I love thinking about the work and what it can mean. But as a field, Im utterly unimpressed by anything being talked about recently.
So like this for instance. If you skip ahead to about min. 36 theres a discussion with charles jencks about the state of architecture in 1995. Thats fifteen years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-icyxM21BWU
And first of all, I think its transparently, utter, uninformed bullshit. I find myself cringing to see any kind of self-recognition in his face of just how embarrassed he should be about really having almost no real understanding of what hes talking about. Everything is like this glancing pop-bullshit conception of what cosmology is, or what chaos theory really is, let alone what they really might say about architecture or politics or anything else.
Which is bad enough. But lets really search ourselves. Have we made any progress, at all, in fifteen years? beyond even that? If so, I havent seen it. Its still just "its generative!". Theres just zero rigor, zero actual science. Really nothing actually interesting or of any value to society that could even pretend to hold a candle to the kinds of advances people have made in other fields. Frankly its been 15 years of superficial, aesthetic dithering. Architecture has become like some arrogant overprivileged brat not doing their homework and then standing up and trying to give an overwrought bunk presentation on a topic theyve done no research on whatsoever with a strait face.
I mean just think about whats been accomplished in computer science, particle physics, cognitive science, biology, sociology, and look at us. It fucking pathetic.
Anyway. random rant..
Zen I think its just that Orochi is just much closer to the norm than I am. (S)hes right. Nobody cares.
Its hard for me to watch. Because I remember Rwanda, and the congo. I remember the lead up to the Iraq war. I do understand it, at some level, americans just dont give fuck about non-americans. [especially if their skin color is different, *cough*] So even when really, hugely momentously unjust things happen in the world, like the french and the US and the UN and the whole international community turning their backs on millions of people being slaughtered in central africa, or an administration forging a reason to invade another country and kill most of a million people, nobody can really be fucked to pay attention until its too late.
And thats exactly whats going on now. I mean a nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran in the next 5 years is a really, hugely genuine possibility. We could be looking at 10s of millions dead. All because fucking netanyahu had a bug up his ass about settlements and when Iranians cried out to get rid of the fucking fascist megalomaniacs running their country into oblivion americans were too busy obsessing over how many white chicks tiger woods banged to notice or care.
No, that's not the reason I don't care.
The reason I don't care is that anytime we (American, The West) interfere with anything... is that we always get blamed, lambasted or generally treated like jerks if we try to help or if we don't help.
The article I linked to shows exactly that-- Americans getting blamed for a protests most of us weren't aware of and or disinterested in.
The reason I don't care or feign not caring because it is easier to maintain neutrality and objectivity by not getting sucked up into every little conflict, whether it be emotionally or logically or morally.
We help? We're white devils or infidels or "sefeeds" or "Khawaga" or "Firangi" or "Kafir."
We don't help? We're insensitive white devils or infidels or "sefeeds" or "Khawaga" or "Firangi" or "Kafir."
It may matter to you. But these things are often "boy who cry wolf" scenarios. People give up on their protests and revolutions and we keep getting dragged into the next rumbling. It'd be great that you actually try to topple to government and give us some notice.
Drag us into it when you want to go all the way.
I agree with oe. It's strange when CNN thinks it's ratings drop is because they are not showing enough tabloid news. They don't realize that it's their horrific news coverage that makes people annoyed.
How long apart are Iranian elections? I feel horrible for those protesters. Cheated and then shot at.
Some of the photos are just heart breaking..
I didnt mean to imply that was your motivation oroch. Im just venting again.
I would mention though that Iranians are a savvy crew. They werent fooled when Ahmadinejad tried to blame him stealing the election on us and they arent fooled by this either. Its tough to claim foriegn assassins killed Ali Mousavi when youve got video of Iranian police vehicles running over crowds of people.
I just tend to think its more important to identify oneself as a member of humanity than a member of a country. Loosely lumping together "Us" and "Them" as if the people and the government are the same thing in some permanent opposition, or even different groups of people within a society like that can be pretty ham-fisted. I dont really even know what you mean by "go all the way". What, like militarize? Raid armories and start a shooting war in the streets? Strap bombs to yourself if that doesnt work? Watch families arrested and tortured to death? Im sorry, but that just really doesnt seem like the best idea on any grounds. I woulda though thats what we learned from Gandhi and King? This is a political war, wresting the mantle of real justice and moral authority. I would say the people fighting right now are doing just about everything humanly imaginable to make that happen right now.
These things take time. The 79 revolution was years in the making, and were already seeing police losing street battles, refusing orders to fire on innocent people, the revolutionary guard losing the message war. We can at least stand as fellow human beings on the side of those fighting for their civil rights.
"kafir" vs "sand nigger"
khawaja is actually somewhat of an honorable title. old school men in the levant call each other that all the time and franji is very merely descriptive. ridiculous to equate them with "kefir".
Orochi The reason I don't care or feign not caring because it is easier to maintain neutrality and objectivity by not getting sucked up into every little conflict, whether it be emotionally or logically or morally.
when one becomes a "we" expressing how "we get dragged" and so on, that is not a result of neutrality.
in any case, the only possible manner of being generous, rather than that inane "neutraityl" that really neutralizes itself of any meaning, is either to be totally sociopathic..which obviously "We" aren't or all lovey dovey humane..whereas "We" are more interested in being snarky and petty.
Address the issue. Don't try to personally attack me because I'm not there to stroke your Arab-centric ego.
The world is a pretty huge place and you make up a very small part.
10s of millions dead? we should be so lucky...that is a lot of carbon footprints eliminated!
wtf? really? thats pretty cowardly brother.
i don't see why one needs to cite ghandi or king (who supported zionism) in order to beseech others to be humane. also, just because colin powell is black, don't mean he's a gift to hunameness/humanity (this harkens back to an older comment of yours, oe) . on par, obama, who gets a nobel peace prize for his skin colour and his speech as he allows his own army to kill innocents in afghanistan and iraq.
what a topsy turvey world where the muddle of words garbs the clarity of action.
on par, obama who gets a nobel peace prize for his skin colour and his speeches
WhOratory
Who would you like to cite?
Im talking about people who got it done, people who developed methods that actually improved the situations they were working within, rather than creating ever-escalating cycles of violence that make the situation worse. I think Gandhi and King were the best examples, but I did also mention Mandela and Shirin Ebadi. Given how they felt about South Africa, I am quite certain they would be the most vocal critics of the state of affairs in palestine, which is in most ways much more brutal than South Africa was.
Trust me, I am all with you on Israel.
I understand your objection to Obama and Powell being on that list, especially given recent escalations in Afghanistan and Yemen. Going in and rooting these guys out is an ugly, ugly job, but unfortunately, there just isnt anyone else who can do it. You cant allow people to blow up planes full of innocent people. In Obama and Powells defense, they are people though who, at the very least, have enormously tempered the methods and strategies the US uses in the world. Theyve been hugely more specific, and sophisticated about the way force is used. I know this will probably be of little comfort to you, but its difficult to understate how important the shift is to a policy focused on long-term peace, stability and ultimately the preservation of life from a policy essentially focused on enriching US companies.
Youre certainly on firm ground criticizing a lot of things that were done with them at the till, but if you spend an afternoon listening to people raving on talk radio or fox news, [or the casual indifference of posters above], and recognize just how many americans that represents, it might let you know just how difficult a task that shift really is.
By The gandhi and co I meant to say that humaneness doesn't need superstardom, as super as they are. Only common sense needed. Obama and Powell and co, really I don't care. In effect, he'll, obama, lead to more deaths. Innocents on both sides; the boys and girls in the us army as well. More absolutely, an armed world that speaks of peace is a hypocritical one. And those who pretend to be neutral in the face of these kinds of deaths are also hypocrites.
You people in the middle east should be licky we haven't gone all War of 1812 or WWII on this.
You think the number of deaths is bad? We can turn that into millions in a month!
lucky*
^See?
Orochi, you do realize that if you were from another country proclaiming the inverse upon the US, you would sound exactly like bin laden right?
Haha, my point was simply that the US is fighting a ware with great restraint. And it is terribly hard to win any war while personally restraining oneself.
For the total number of people involved in the US' "tour of the Middle East," this war isn't particularly bloody-- meaning for the time and proportion of people, it has relatively minimal casualties.
However, it is an extremely brutal war... savagely brutal. And the blame for that purely isn't one side or another. The US surely doesn't have clean hands either. We've been pretty awful ourselves.
But if people want to bitch about causalities, loss of life and other things... well, I'm sure someone in Washington can really give something for everyone to cry about.
I agree with you oe, it doesn't matter if we help or not help, we are still getting all the blame.
The problem, I think is with the way we help, because the only way we know of helping is with guns and bombs. We must change the way we view "help", not just destroy a country and leave it and say "mission accomplished", but I am not saying rebuild the country either. There must be a better solution, instead of fighting the army, just take down the leader, 1 or 2 snipers can do a perfect job.
Well in Iran at least, I think were helping in the best way I can imagine; not through bombs or assassinations or funding violence, but through technology. Right now cell phones and the internet are the biggest threats the hardliners face.
It will obviously take more than that for people to get real democracy, but that much is up to them. We can at least bear witness and offer what support we can as fellow human beings.
don't hellp!
effectively, oe, and after reading your analysis of Obama's politiking, i find that your stance doesn't differ much from Orochi's. s\he suggests the escalations possible (possible yet avoided) vis a vis his/her hyperbole (possibility of millions of deaths)....you also mention the avoidance of such escalations (avoided yet possible).
you both have not condemned any and all usage of military action. one gets the sense that you would ideally like that there be no such thing, but realistically you understand the need for it, be it mitigated through a reasonable and economical usage of force "for peace".
the way i see it, whatever the difference of US aims are in afghanistan and in iraq ,pre-Obama (bush) and concurrent with obama's presidency, the US military is still killing innocents such as that afghani family&friends who were holding a marriage ceremony. and the more this happens, the more "terrorists"the US will breed for itself.
the difference between bush and obama is mostly rhetorical. the former was fetishistic and hyperbolic and the latter is meant to sound measured and equivalent to the status on ground. however, and this is why i use the word effectively, i see not such a grand difference of effect so far. in fact, Obama is condemned (by the previous office and by his own), whatever his good intentions/rhetoric would have us believe, to being an unjust- war president...
goliath cannot suddenly morph into david. the US external realpolitik, whether it is fronted by a black or white or red or yellow or brown face, has proved to be morally corrupt and inhumane. you cannot rehabilitate colonialism by still being in other peoples' homes and being party to their domestic disputes. you either recognize that you are still a colonial force, if you want to be at least honest with your own self, or you just get the fuck out. just because you have an afroamerican president DOES NOT UNDO ABU GHREIB, YOUR MURDER (SUBSIDIZED BY YOUR TAX MONEY), YOUR GOVERNMENT'S FINANCIAL COMMITMENT (BLACK FACED OR WHITE FACED) TO SUPPORT OF A RACIST ISRAEL...
your benetton poster hallmark story president does not undo all this.
hows that for hyperbolic "You" vs "Us"
:o)
as for that "pressure on israel" bit. if thats all your president can do, then its not proof of how strong he is, as you farcically analyze, but of how doomed and weak he, or any US president is, to unacceptably compromise with US' racist fuck buddy.
Look, theres a difference between being critical, even vociferously so, and being intentionally intractable. If thats truly how you feel, then youre really no different from rednecks in this country watching fox news all day. You simply arent looking at both sides of this thing.
Ive said several times, I think Israel is as bad or worse than south africa ever was. Fortunately, increasingly, thats the way western countries are seeing it as well. Not as a 'strong ally' and 'the only vibrant democracy in the middle east', but as an embarrassing liability. in 70 years thats never happened in the US, until Barack Obama. Netanyahu isnt running with the ball, hes throwing a temper tantrum, because for the first time in Israels history were more on the side of Palastinians than his government. Now its true, we havent been able to stop him from building in east Jerusalem. We do however have a standing order that if Israel tries to strike Iran through Iraq we will shoot them down. I also wouldnt be fooled that the UN could file war crimes charges against Israel without our consent.
But frankly, and this is what I dont think youre acknowledging, our job here would be a lot easier if we didnt have him to deal with, and we wouldnt have him to deal with if Hamas wasnt lobbing rockets indiscriminately into civilian neighborhoods. Israels conduct in the Gaza war last year was fucking inhuman, but Hamas wanted that fight. Theyre BOTH at fault here, and worse, they BOTH seem to have a vested political interest in the war continuing.
This is extraordinarily difficult, and the risks are enormous, which is why it doesnt happen overnight. At the absolute least though, this new US administration seems finally intent on taking the steps necessary to sincerely solve these problems.
You argue the United States is killing innocents. I'll wholeheartedly admit that. I'll even go farther to point out the US has probably caused more deaths, directly or indirectly than any other actor in the last 50 years. But theres an implication there that if the US wasnt active in the world everything would be honky-dory, and thats clearly false. I mean look at central africa. In 94' the US and the international made the cowardly and politically insipid decision to reserve involvement, to turn the other way, and over the course of 8 years more people died in Rwanda and Burundi and Zaire than during the holocaust. We should all feel incredible shame over letting that happen. As terrible as much of what is going on in Paksitan and Afghanistan, the numbers of civilians killed by the US is nowhere near the numbers killed in bombings by members of the taliban on their own people, and pales next to the numbers that would certainly die in an all-out pakistani civil war, let alone a potential nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India.
I truly do understand your concerns as an idealist. Ideally no one would die. But people who run countries can think in terms of gross costs. They are forced, by the responsibility of their office, the responsibilities entailed by the power they hold, and the reality of the situations they inherit, to consider the net costs and benefits of their actions. Dozens or hundreds killed by action simply does not measure against 10s of thousands or even millions killed by inaction.
The primary difference I see between Obama and Bush (or more accurately Cheney) is not just rhetorical, but philosophical, and strategic. Its both the ends Obama seeks, and the metrics by which progress is measured; namely the net preservation of life and peace over the potential for economic exploitation. Where the Cheney machine, quite transparently I think, sought essentially a cold-war-esque strategic and economic advantage for the US (ie. capitalization of oil markets) at the willful expense of human life, the Obama administration has made actual resolution of conflict its central goal, really for the first time since world war 2. I think a final awareness has emerged that in the long term, we simply cannot afford to be the lone world police over continuing conflicts on this scale, that the global prevention of mass violent death and conflict must be a shared responsibility.
Again, while the bombs are still falling, I fully understand your skepticism. Id just hope that youd be willing to reserve some judgement until some of these strategic efforts have had time to bear fruit.
oe,
firstly, thank you for comparing me to red necks. because really, i'm an all-the-way nationalist who barely knows his/her own language let alone others', who doesn't travel and encouter other cultures and basically hates everyone else who doesn't have a red...well in my case, according to the season, creamy tawny to olive to light brown to golden chocolate, neck.
i admit, i don't like american news. but thats not for their politics as much as for their hyper-affected tv hosts with their spastic toothsome smiles and their disturbing manner of addressing each other on camera. who needs Ringu when we have those scary people. anyway...i am not an "idealist" in a realist's world. i believe in the right to put up a resistance. hamas is a grassroot organization, whatever its religious background, resulting directly from israel's occupation. you tell me...why should hamas NOT fire into israel? there lie its homes and farms that the zionists stole. don't blame david for goliath's doings. and this was only possible due, historically, to the british and american support in the first place.
in fact, i do see more than one side. i see your earnest desire to believe that Obama's ability to make a good change. we differ on evaluating how much of a change constitutes an actual change. i don't care about "yes we can" slogans...these are, for me, as plastic as those telly hosts you breed in your country :o)
don't get me wrong though. i have no hatred for americans or for the israelis. i equally have no overwhelming love for arabs or iranians. its not a matter of whom i am ethnically, religiously or otherwisely affiliating with. but whats happening because of your country's actions and because of israel's actions is thoroughly unjust and it takes so much more than black faced nuances and subtelties.
its a very simple demand really: "please, just get the fuck out and stop meddling"
or does it take attaching it to a hurdled shoe to get the message across.
and what now? iran? yemen?for the one head you cut in a middle east country, another two will sprout in the other. do not hellp!
and again, what sort of help can be received from a nation that is founded on the very principle of land theft and genocide of people it deemed subhuman.
thanksgiving indeed. how horrid that you people actually still celebrate it.
Im Irish and penobscot. You dont have to remind me about our friends the "nativists". ;)
Yo and nobody is gonna invade Iran or Yemen. I know thats what theyre saying on a lot of arab news but its not going to happen. Some poor bastard lit his underwear on fire on an airplane so things are tense, but trust me, we couldnt send a troop to another country if we wanted to.
i admit, i don't like american news. but thats not for their politics as much as for their hyper-affected tv hosts with their spastic toothsome smiles and their disturbing manner of addressing each other on camera. who needs Ringu when we have those scary people.
Haha join the club man. I think I made almost this exact comparison to my dad like a week ago. Worse than the creepy smiling luridness though for me is just the sheer stupidity of it. I think 80 percent of the international coverage this week seems to be just trying to figure out where Yemen is on a map.
why should hamas NOT fire into israel?
Because its counterproductive. This is what I was saying about Iran. As soon as you make unarmed people your target you throw away the most important thing a resistance movement needs: moral legitimacy. And the the world wants to give it to them right now. For the first time ever, a US administration wants to give it to them. But at some point a compromise must be struck. Yes, much of the land thats now Israel was created through forced evacuation. More of it was taken when Arab nationalists tried to invade and got pushed back. A great deal of it was made by palestinians making willful sales to jewish immigrants. As Im sure you know, its fucking complicated. But Palestinians arent going to get all of it back, and the more they make violence their central method, the more they stoop to that, the less they can hope to achieve.
If they want anything, theyve got to put forward real, equitable solutions rather than intentionally intractable ones.
I completely hear you when you say "Get the fuck out." Believe it or not, wed like nothing more. I dont know if youve noticed but weve got something of a cash-flow problem. The American people are tired of being the world's sherif. Ending funding to rebel groups in Iran was one of the first things Obama did in office. We are getting the fuck out in Iraq, and Afghanistan isnt far behind. Fall 11' isnt a completely arbitrary date, Obama wants half our people out by the next election.
In the mean time though, Israel and hamas and Iran have to be talked down. That takes some "meddling". Some people genuinely want peace, others just need a boogie-man to keep themselves in power, and unfortunately right now all three of the above seem to fit into the latter category. Despite what a lot of people think, we cant actually force Israel to do much of anything. If france wanted to force people into clusterfuck shithole ghettos we couldnt do much about that either. So its a matter of leverage, gaming them best we can to do what they need to do in spite of themselves.
Unfortunately, when it comes to Afghanistan and Isreal and Iraq, youre right, we are complicit in creating a lot of these problems. Bush is a fuckwad. Reagan was worse. But unfortunately that also makes it our responsibility to leave these situations better than we found them, to build political solutions and extract ourselves in a way that doesnt on top of everything else leave a genocide in our wake.
oe Because its counterproductive
whether you think it counterproductive or not, its their right to resist in the manner they see fit. hizbollah hit the nail on the head, israel only gives way by force. otherwise, israel would be still occupying latge expanses of southern lebanon. anyway, it is not my wish to rationalize their manner of resistance with you. this is THEIR choice and by forcing yourself, rather the actual victims, as judge and jury of what is productive and acceptable, into the middle of it (although financially and institutionally, your country is ultimately extremely biased), you are only peddling delusions to yourself and to others. the solution has always been obvious.
oeDespite what a lot of people think, we cant actually force Israel to do much of anything
only because your country is so thoroughly enmeshed, institutionally, in financially and morally supporting israel. by virtue of capitalism and the vested interest of powerful and rich pro-israel jews and associated christian zionists. many many of the companies that feed your babies (and ours, since the world is largely open to american products), that produce your clothes, your computers, your electrical appliances..hell, maybe even your very electricity...are run and largely owned by these figures. you are, incapable, to afford justice. your country, willingly or not, therefore is bipolar. it wishes to play the fair judge/jury when it has been subsidizing the criminal. unfortunately, there are far more factors at play that exceed, in importance, the rhetoric and indeed actions of your current president.
as for the palestinian sale of lands to zionists, i think you will find that it is even more complicated than your version of complicated. most palestinians were under feudal land owners, some of who were not even palestinians (such as the lebanese sursock family) and those transactions that happened where with absentee land owners. palestiians were, largely, victims of a transaction that happened between capitalism in the form of the JNF and the like, and british mandate/ottoman feudalism. regardless, palestinians where expelled from their own land that had belonged to them prior to feudalism and to capitalism!
incapable of affording. excuse the failure of my grammatical stamina...i'm running low on energy. :/
Both of Amercian and Middle East people are victims of unsound capitalism. America has printed too many dallars relative to commodity. That is why USA has to rely on Oil which is replacing the role Gold had played.
Thus, USA is relying on other country's resource most of which are poor countries, and most of rich countries are relying on USA, and most of poor countries are relying on the rich countries...the circle goes on and on...In this cycle no one seems able to escape. That is why the situation is really complex and seems unsoluble.
Hamas and Israel and Iran...all of them are actually helping American army stays in Middle East area. (Hamas') terrorism and struggles in that area are the only excuse US army can stay in that area.
I am not blaming either America and Middle East people and I know both of them have sacrificed something for the rest of the world.
Rather than blaming, I am saying we need to help each other.
NO, it ISNT. Its not their right to deliberately target unarmed people. Its not Israels right to do that either, nor the US, nor anyone else. There are international laws, and one doesnt get to break them because theyre the underdog. When they do they immolate their own credibility and leverage on the issues they care most about. Thats what Israel is finding out in the last year. And quite to Hizbollas contrary, its quite clear that historically being attacked is the central vehicle by which Israel has expanded its territory, as excuse and justification for further abuse. To be quite frank, palestinians owe nearly as much of their suffering to the political motivations of Syria, Egypt, Iran and their own leaders as they do to Israel. Theyve been exploited by everyone for political gain.
only because your country is so thoroughly enmeshed, institutionally, in financially and morally supporting israel. by virtue of capitalism and the vested interest of powerful and rich pro-israel jews and associated christian zionist.
and this is where I think you end up really far afield. Yes, there are institutional and economic ties between the US and Israel. But they arent any greater or different than we have with England or China or Japan or Saudi Arabia or Sweden. Its a global community. Its based on treaties and its based on wealth, and Israel is a part of it. But they are actually an extraordinarily small part of it. I really hate to break it to you guys, but there simply is no big jewish conspiracy. It doesnt exist. There are a lot of very smart, very rich Jewish people. There are many many more very smart, very rich christians and moslems and agnostics and hundus and athiests, and everyone of them is really only out for their own interests. The worst thing we have going on is a bunch of cold-war dinosaurs who just dont know what to do with themselves without an evil empire to fight. To be very honest, most americans could care less about problems in Palestine and Israel. And the only reason the US government does is because we dont want to play referee on a nuclear war in the next 5 years. That is the human and economic disaster were fighting so hard to prevent. Israel is just an inherited liability in the middle of it.
sigh.
conspiracy or not, the US has been giving israel about 2-3 billion dollars in direct aid and approximately another 2-3 in indirect aid ANNUALLY. each year, we give them more money than all of africa and latin america combined. think about that. the US is responsible for 2% of israel's GDP.
"A third difference is the sheer amount of aid the U.S. gives to Israel, unparalleled in the history of U.S. foreign policy. Israel usually receives roughly one third of the entire foreign aid budget, despite the fact that Israel comprises less than .001 of the worldÿs population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. In other words, Israel, a country of approximately 6 million people, is currently receiving more U.S. aid than all of Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined when you take out Egypt and Colombia."
http://www.wrmea.com/html/usaidtoisrael0001.htm
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/245-2008-november/3845-congress-watch-a-conservative-estimate-of-total-direct-us-aid-to-israel-almost-114-billion.html
its not TECHNICALLY a conspiracy: aipac is the strongest and most ruthless lobby in existence. they quite honestly have bought nearly every elected official in the country, and are therefore quite literally have a strong grip on our government. thats why netanyahu can get away with the US' "pressure" on israel and the settlements. israel can give a fuck. they know that no matter what, we will not ever make any drastic moves and that they will continue to get our tax payer money and weapons. obama has no power over them. when he first got elected i naively thought that MAYBE something would change.....rhetoric only gets you so far.
Well thats not technically so. Im sure I dont know how you got 1/3 from 2.9 billion out of 50 billion total annually. Its actually half what we give africa. Its also clever of you to take out Egypt, considering we give them almost as much, and that you leave out Iraq, Afghanistan, Jordan, Gaza, the West Bank, Pakistan, Turkey, and Lebanon. In fact, all told, we give five times what we give to Israel to predominantly islamic countries. But I guess we can chalk that up to the all-powerful pro-islam lobby in this country.
Also, just to put things in perspective, 2 billion is the cost of a B2 bomber. The total defense spending is 600 to 800 billion each year.
Now dont get me wrong, I dont understand why any fully developed nation needs a dime, let alone 3rd on the list. Whether its missile defense to balance against Iran or whatever, a calculation has been made that I dont think is productive or helpful. Still, grounds for belief in some ruthless global conspiracy it is not.
more sighs.
those numbers dont tell the whole story. first of all, from your list, jordan got 500 million. egypt is 50 times the size of israel, literally, and gets 1 billion. pakistan is 40 times bigger, has approximately 180 MILLION people, and got 950 million in 07. israel has 7.5 million people, with 2.5 billion dollars of direct aid. why? youre right, it is FULLY DEVELOPED COUNTRY. tell me how this makes sense.
and given the fact we are occupying iraq and afghanistan, i would expect a remarkable amount of money to go to those regions.
Well its clearly not going to feed hungry people, so Im not certain how the population matters. It doesnt take much creativity to imagine how 2 and a half billion could get eaten up in missile defense though.
US gives away lots of cash!
and everybody hate US!
time to give the cash to the people!
give us a break!
Conspiracy was not my word but yours. By assuming that I have conspiracy in mind, you are readily associating particular tropes as being within a meme’s neighbourhood when, in fact, you have the wrong address. The zionist plan had already been actualized (if we overlook the idea of a Greater Israel). The conspiracy achieved its fruition with the Balfour declaration and the zoning of the Sykes-Picot accord; what we live with today is the aftermath of conspiracy. Post-conspiracy rather with the seemingly pluralistic entanglement of sympathies that normalize the status of Israel as a country like any other. You cite Egypt; well as shitty as their human rights record is, they did not persecute and expel native peoples through murder, terror and deceit to replace their majority or subjugate the remaining. And you know what, as a side note…the day Egypt actually gets its act together and starts to actively help Palestinians, rather than aiding in penning them in, US aid to Egypt might very well cease. Egypt, like many other “Arab” states, squeaks the way the US likes. Don’t get me started on the Arab states!
Others here are giving you the official direct aid figures; they are more knowledgeable than me and I don’t really fancy going over your country’s budget. But I am positive that many of the jets and bombs that killed Lebanese kids by the hordes should have also carried “messages of love” from the US. But besides the official aid records, how many American (and European) companies run their business from Palestinian X-villages that were razed to the ground, expelling the thousands of villagers who still are around to testify to Israel’s terror. The resultant revenue from such misadventures must dwarf official direct aid.
What about the many who bring Aipac and co.’s influence on U.S. politics, both externally and internally, to light? Do you readily overlook this, simply because your president has a black(ish) face and is a good rhetorician? You’re not watching a Morgan Freeman movie here! Dammit, it has become near impossible to boycott products churned out by Israel-sponsors; fine, Stabucks’ coffee is shit…but Intel chips? I’m using one now! Their Middle East headquarters are based in one or two of those ghost villages that have been turned into Israeli industrial parks.
Israel has proven to abuse negotiations, it abuses negotiations to forestall, to allow it to expand and strengthen its hold. You say that by firing into Israel, Hamas goes against international rules. Israel’s very formation goes against those very same rules; its continual colonization of others’ lands goes against those rules. Armed resistance is a right for someone who has, undeservedly, murdered family and confiscated lands and whose enemy has been internationally absolved of condemnation by the dominant global powers, whether you think it unproductive or unbecoming to your palette.
Lastly, I want to confess my own schism. As I said before, I have no hatred for Israelis. By nature, I don’t want young Israeli men and women dying either. I believe in the fundamental evil of all weaponry and that hatred attends a chance to wield it. By rationale, though, I do not see how to accept the subversion of a Palestinian’s right to defend his/her home for the sake of an inert pacifism or “neutrality”. In fact, given my nature, it would be selfish of me to be neutral. I only wish (puerile, like all wishes) that we all live in peace. I think nationalism (Zionism is Jewish nationalism) sucks and I hope (puerile, like all hopes) to one day be able cross all so-called boundaries without restrictions and that you would stop being American, Arab, Israeli and I would stop being Whateverian (and that sounds Armenian). But in the meantime, when all humans wane off ownership equally (i.e. this is neither my home nor yours but is its own) and we all tread lightly from birth to death, then I can understand self-defense.
the Nobel "peace" prize should not have been given to Obama but to the person who pens his speeches. Best SpeechWriter Award they should rename it.
As I said before, I have no hatred for Israelis.
yea, whatever.
Look Im not saying its fair. It clearly, clearly is not. But you must admit there is plenty of blame to go around. The word conspiracy was mine, but I get a little worried when people start going all the way back to 1916 and betraying a kind of pathological fixation on Jewish influence on US politics. Thats very generous you dont wish Israelis to die, but taking a position that all land held by Jews is illegitimate, that Israels very existence is a crime, implies that really, you dont want Jews in the middle east at all. Theres an implication that the current state of affairs was somehow secretly engineered by a shadowy group behind the scenes of ever level of European, US and Soviet politics for the last 100 years. And that just isnt how it happened. Thats not history, its paranoia. In the first half of the century the jewish people were under enormous, genuine threat of actual extermination. Many of them suffered incredible cruelty and betrayal in their home country. The early zionists didnt trust anyone and given what they had gone through its difficult to blame them. And so a series of really dumb decisions were made in europe because they couldnt deal with their own problems. Remember both Jewish and arab nationalists were fighting against the brits at the time. Until 48 it was just a bunch of conflicting people thrown into a mess. It wasnt until the brits pulled out and palestines neighbors invaded and were pushed back that real territorial borders formed.
Its incredibly unfair that palastinians had their land sold from underneath them, and that they were later played by the ambitions of Jordan and Egypt into a defeat from which they would never recover, and that the Israelis could not muster in themselves the compassion and wisdom to do what their former oppressors could not. But what was done was done. Now is now. All those people are dead. I mean if a bunch of texans decided they were tired of having a town next to them full of mexican immigrants who had come illegally a hundred years ago, you wouldnt say it was ok for texans to shell the town would you? To blow up busses with kids on it? Youd call them racists, and sociopaths, and youd be right.
What Im hoping, what the US has hoped for the last 20 years or so, is that these people can fucking finally for the good of their people make a goddamn compromise already. We dont want to have to mitigate this agonizing battle of mutual ethnic cleansing anymore. Be Nelson Mandela! Take some responsibility! Put forward a fucking proposal that doesnt include the total eradication of the other! something both sides can live with. And I know. Netanyahu is a fuckwad, hes being completely unreasonable. Thats the PERFECT time to draw some contrast and get the world on your side to push back.
What about the many who bring Aipac and co.’s influence on U.S. politics, both externally and internally, to light? Do you readily overlook this, simply because your president has a black(ish) face and is a good rhetorician?
Im fully aware Aipac is powerful. But I think you dont realize that all lobbyists in the US are powerful. Theyve got nothing on the Oil lobby, or the Agro lobby, or the insurance or coal or bankers lobbies. Theyre actually distinctly less potent than the LGBT lobby, and they cant even get dont ask dont tell repealed. For all the talk, Aipac really only has influence in New York and Florida. I'll give you, Florida is a swing state, but still, that puts Aipac right about next to Black Ministers in terms of total influence.
Much closer to the truth is we need oil. And before the Iraq invasion, Israel was the only place we could stage missiles right next to it.
Getting back on topic, I think this is a pretty smart and even assessment:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/06/think_again_irans_green_movement?page=full
I doubt you get worried, otherwise if you keep worrying about every person citing events from not-such-a-distant history, you must have caused yourself a hernia or an ulcer. You use too many patronizing in-fill rhetorical clichés. Anyway, the influence of Zionism to realize Israel on Palestinian lands on the UK then American policy is historical fact, in fact…it is even tautological (after all, this is what the Zionist agenda was all about), whether I stretch back or not. Also I mentioned “pro-Israeli” Jewish and Christian Zionists; I have no qualms about one’s religion whether they worship a firmamental deity, the clay suck to their soles or their very selves. I have not expressed any antipathy towards Jews and Judaism. Kindly stop insidiously insinuating that I am an anti-Jewish, if not anti-Semite (which would be impossible, I am semitic).
this is very generous that you don’t want Israelis do die
Again, you’re being patronizing and sarcastic. Do you wish to really read what I have to write and/or say, or do you merely wish to state your opinion and insult me? No, I’m not generous. Its not an issue of morality, it’s a feeling. People killing each other scares me, very precisely. I won’t use bullshit words like “disgusts, repels, . ..”. It’s that simple. But I said, I understand Hamas’ actions. You thus have it in reverse. Morally, I don’t find it objectionable; I am not at all “generous” and you cannot, therefore, insinuate that I am being a hypocrite. The schism I pointed out to is between the moral and existential.
implies that really, you don’t want Jews in the middle east
I suspect that you are addressing your own discursive ghosts, rather than me. No, I did not imply this. What I don’t want is “Jewish State” for two reasons, one of which applies equally to Iran, Saudi Arabia and other such Middle Eastern countries. But the more significant reason is that the legalistic and socioeconomic set-up of a decidedly Jewish state would preclude the rights of people who were native to those very lands prior to the relatively very recent usurpation. What I want is a country (even a larger Levantine region, no boundaries no restrictions) where Arabs, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews, Armenians, Kurds…etc..can all live in a region that is not identifiably prejudiced towards one group. You compared me to a red neck a couple of posts above; it appears your proclivity to lampoon me with your own assumptions about me, someone who doesn’t play a tune you perhaps recognize, is more red neckish. My qualm is with Zionism, rabid nationalism and with your country’s warmongering. But I already know, you work in Pavlovian ways, oe, you will see those titles flashing out from the body of the text then, again, you will find a way to portray me as a pathological quasi-red neck.
Theres an implication that the current state of affairs were somehow secretly engineered by a shadowy group…behind the scenes of every level of European, US and Soviet politics …etc
Did I say behind every scene of every level? Palestine, ie the Brown area, was given to the Zionists because of the influence of high flying Zionists and the strategic advantage gaining an allies-friendly buffer zone. It was due to both a meeting of
in the first half of the century, jewish people were under enormous…suffered incredibly….etc
Kindly don’t regurgitate and lecture me on common knowledge. Spare me your missionary altruism, I don’t need to be educated on the most infamous event of the modern European history. The topic is not the Shoah it’s the Naqba; its sadly ironic that the first should fuel the latter, but the victims of the latter were not responsible for the victimization of the former. You should be, as I am, very perplexed by how surviving victims of the Shoah would allow, subsidize and actualize the Naqba…but not accepting it as an alibi for the suffering of Palestinians. What..are Jews really more worthy and deserving of being human than Palestinians? Really, your thoughts gravitate towards clichés like water towards drainage holes.
series of dumb decisions were made in europe
Ah, well. Naught cutsie Europe. Uh its ok, we can forgi ve dumb decisions, not deceitful colonizing ones.
but what was done was done
No, actually, its still being done. Perhaps you ARE being suckered in by Fox news but you think yourself a bit cleverer by half.
that the PERFECT time to draw some contrast and get the world back on your side to push back!
Perhaps if “you” , ie the US, [b]lay off[/i], “we” would be able to push back. And stop fucking calling me a whole nation by addressing me as “you”. I keep on saying “your country” and you keep on calling me “you”.
they’re actually less potent than the LGBT lobby
Firstly, the LGBT are there to secure their rights…not to secure others’ rights for themselves! And is that why the LGBT still struggles with basic equalities like marriage, whereas, obviously, pro-Israel lobbyists seem to be all happy-go-lucky. Perhaps OneFella4 was right (scary) in a manner that s/he might object to, but perhaps in your country, some Animals are more equal than others.
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