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And while were demagoguing spindly religious archetypes, we should probably dynamite all the bell towers too, yknow, just to be safe.
maybe they'll co-opt the chalet as archetype. that'd sure piss off the nationalists at the SVP.
seems a bit of overkill for a handful of minarets...
maybe the turks will add some nasty shit to their doeners...
If the activists behind the ban really managed to brand the minaret as a symbol for the militant strain of islam, there should have been a counter-effort by inclusive-minded politicians. Where's the "nein" posters? have only seen this quite powerful pro-ban red-black-white thing. Minarets obviously were something the mainstream swiss political parties didn't want to fight for.
Hope that the voters don't flock to the SPP - their previous campaings have been obscene in their racism (instead of graphically striking) and show what kind of a party they really are - not a party for a secular liberal europe, but a party for a xenophobic fortress europe.
hahaha... you know what's really racist? thinking that the majority of muslims are middle eastern.
Since the muslim faith is multiethnic and multicultural, this isn't an attack on race... it is an attack on religion. Obvious in your face religion.
this has nothing to do with religion or race. it's an architectural design issue. minarets are not swiss and clearly do not belong in switzerland.
i'm surprised that more architects aren't applauding the swiss for their courage in the face of this threat.
Wow really! Thats weird, because the pro-ban posters have a fascistically villianized woman in a burka standing in front of a field of completely benign architectural features made to look like missiles.
"not swiss" indeed.hahaha... you know what's really racist? thinking that the majority of muslims are middle eastern.
Well in fairness, most of them are from the balkans and turkey, theyre still an ethnic minority. And as stated by the article, only 13% even practice, so claiming this purely a religious issue strikes me as more than a little thin.
So if my understanding of this is correct, Minarettes are now a symbol of terrorism?
Is this truly how stupid people have become?
, to make glorious peoples society, they shouldn't have stopped with minarets but banned all forms of religious architecture entirely in favor of community pot-luck dinners.
The Blonde-Haired, Blue-Eyed Swiss are a precious thing, which took thousands of years to derive. That they are not interested in diluting their Culture with Multi-Culturalism is a beautiful thing that should be respected. It's not a good thing to short-circuit genetic drift by transplanting other cultures who did not make the same journey, but flew-in on an airplane. Learn from the U.S. , which has become a divided cultural mess with no cohesion.....
puddles, i completely agree. what coming of age american needs to be disoriented by minarets when they backpack into the gimmelwald hostel?
Europeans would NEVER go to exotic countries and build churches, infuse their lifestyle, cultures, and religions into those societies.
well, satirical jokes aside, i will take the unpopular point of view that, while i think what the swiss are doing stands in total contradiction to american ideals, i do think the swiss have a right to maintain their cultural identity and if that is by banning minarets, then so be it. i don't agree with it, but i'm not swiss. the swiss have been using their blatant nationalism to advantage for hundreds of years, i can't see why they would think it wouldn't benefit them now. what the swiss need to realize, however, is that they can come to expect to be targeted by islamic extremism from now on. but hey, they're armed to the teeth and they're all good marksmen so they probably think it won't matter.
The Swiss people would be a lot more credible in their will to "preserve" their pretty white culture if they also committed to taking out their own trash, building their own buildings and raising their own children again. I don't see how you can create an economy based on immigrant labor and then deprive those immigrants of cultural expression. Just my opinion.
i think that if we are all honest with ourselves here then we'd realize that none of us wants to see a minaret in switzerland.
if these immigrants desire cultural expression then maybe they should go to epcot center instead.
Puddles, I trust that your ancestors came to the United States and moved into a tipi?
i know people who live in tipis. i have a friend who lived in a tipi for a year. they are all the rage in australia. by all accounts, people should live in tipis, wigwams, longhouses, pueblos or whatever the regional style insists upon. santa fe style homes are basically just authentic native american architecture. http://www.rainbowtipis.com.au/
p.s. don't forget about hogans
if the Swiss are going to ban building types form other cultures in their countries, maybe this is a good opportunity to ban Swiss building types in our country, especially when they result in shit like this near every mountain:
santa fe style homes are basically just authentic native american architecture.---this building style was introduced by the spanish.
Please, God, let this be satire.i think that if we are all honest with ourselves here then we'd realize that none of us wants to see a minaret in switzerland.
Think about it. Think about it.while i think what the swiss are doing stands in total contradiction to american ideals, i do think the swiss have a right to maintain their cultural identity and if that is by banning minarets, then so be it. i don't agree with it, but i'm not swiss
And that makes them immune to criticism? How in christ are we supposed to go to Saudi Arabia or Iran and scold them for discriminating against women or gay people if the west cant criticize its own for a pretty fucking blatant, absurd act of discrimination against their culture? I dont think anyone is under any illusion that this has a thing to do with architecture. Its a very specific, intentional insult by the Swiss right wing meant to harass muslims and make them feel unwelcome as a people. I mean can you imagine the world reaction if theyd said they wanted to ban menorahs? Its fascism, strait up, and its fucking despicable.
Here's a question to all you geniuses saying it makes sense for the Swiss to ban minarets because Islamic symbols do not represent Swiss architecture or culture:
6% of Switzerland's population are Muslim, while only 0.2% are Jewish. Shouldn't Jewish symbols also be banned, considering they represent Swiss culture far less than Islamic culture?
Its not fascism it is cultural preservation. Europe is not America, it is not a melting pot of nationalities, like Asia is not a a bunch of Asians, Europe is not a bunch of white people. The nations have unique ethnic identities which have slowly been eroded and are in danger of disappearing all together. OE you ask if there was a ban on Menorah? Well Jews and Muslims have both been groups who settled in Europe and then refused to integrate. A group can not exist as a separate religion and race within a foreign culture for generations without mixing. In the case of the Jews they were given Israel to move to, the Jews who stayed in Europe have largely integrated into the nations they chose to live in and brought their contributions. The Muslims have not yet assimilated into European society but may do so. Why are Europeans not allowed to preserve their cultural identities because it is racism or fascism? If Norwegian Lutherans wanted to build a Church in Saudi Arabia, I doubt it would be allowed.
The reason why the minarets were banned because the call for prayer, as Switzerland is neutral country it doesn't want to introduce religious sounds all over the city, which clearly don't represent Switzerland.
well if its not racism, then its certaily some other hateful otherism. but you must be petting yourself on the shoulder for making a point that is, in the greater hateful scheme of things, petty.
i wonder when those assholes will start asking for the moslems to wear a crescent symbol to identify them. and in usa, patriot act II, III, IV...?
Swiss Cheese, are you at all familiar with the concept of Volksgemeinschaft? Look it up. You'll find lots to agree with.
Swiss Cheese...you actually created an architect account so you could be a troll on this thread?
Mr. Mud I find itextremely in bad taste your link provided. A nation has the right to preserve it's cultural identity. Why would you deny the right of Swiss to preserve their character, their architecture and culture? The Swiss do not go unto Iran and build Chalet or towering Spire with cross? Does Swiss woman must wear Burka when traveling Arabia? I think so. It is not 2 way street then you see.
From the article above: "Swiss mosques do not broadcast the call to prayer outside their buildings."Well Jews and Muslims have both been groups who settled in Europe and then refused to integrate.
Yikes. Careful son.The Muslims have not yet assimilated into European society but may do so. Why are Europeans not allowed to preserve their cultural identities because it is racism or fascism?
Youre absolutely right. Yknow whats a great way to encourage a group of people to integrate? Posters like this!
Make yourself at home!If Norwegian Lutherans wanted to build a Church in Saudi Arabia, I doubt it would be allowed.
Right, because when I look to a country for its social moral leadership, I look to Saudi Arabia.
OE must ask yourself you would want to live next to minaret flanking mosque? Ask yourself if you are racist? I think your answer is the same for both questions.
you guys are joking, right? you're not seriously saying that minarets should be allowed in switzerland, are you?
look, i mean they are fine in constantinople...charming even. but they don't belong in gstaad.
to me this is an architectural issue...but if you feel that it has social & political implications too, then fine. but then i'm also inclined to think that the muslims should just keep their culture out of europe altogether then. they're already f'ing up a number of nice countries. do they really need to be in switzerland too? i'd imagine that the 6% of swiss population that is muslim would happily leave if they could and i'm sure they desperately miss their minarets but, hey, that's the price you pay for access to good chocolates & healthy mountain air.
Swiss, I am american. I'll give you, weve had more experience with this, (and certainly fucked it up worse than you along the way) but no, I wouldnt have the slightest problem living next to a minaret.
I can also certainly tell you, a 6% minority doesnt destroy a culture. Neither does 30%, or 60%. Irish American culture didnt evaporate when italians showed up. Nobody banned Thanksgiving when Latinos arrived. In fact, all of these cultures have flourished in the last 50 years. The fears being spread arent just overblown, theyre suspicious. Im sure you'll understand people getting a bit nervous when righties in central europe start scapegoating minorities in the name of 'purity'. Weve seen this book before.
actually, the adan + church bells sounding together during the fortuitous quietude of a mediterranean sunset is quite beautiful, whatever your religious affiliations or lack thereof. the adan sculpts out the hollowness of the space and the bells send pulses reverberating within that hollowness.
Orochi this isn't an attack on race... it is an attack on religion.Obvious in your face religion.
no, its not an attack on religion...its an attack on Areligion.
Orochi this isn't an attack on race... it is an attack on religion.Obvious in your face religion.
no, its not an attack on religion...its an attack on A religion.
I totally agree with puddles.
Having lived 18 years in a muslim country I know how they see and treat people from other religions. In my country churches got attacked by religious zealots numerous times. Westerners are kind people. They try to exercise human rights at all times and they try to welcome foreigners but I'm afraid the muslim people (at least majority of them) won't be returning that favor back because according to Islam all people from other religions,christians,jews,buddhists etc. will end up in HELL unless they convert to Islam. I read the Koran,it is full of hatred and violence. They have absolutely no respect for women and gays and they don't like "mixing in" with other folks. They preserve their culture and generally stay away from westerners.
For 18 years I lived next to a mosque. The sound of the azan was so loud and close it felt like the imam was calling to prayer in our own house. It definitely changes the environment you live.
What I'm saying is the majority of muslim people,especially the ones who actively practice Islam differ from Latinos,Italians,Russians,Polish etc. Also I'm sure you've all heard about the population decrease in Europe. Well muslim people sure like to make lots of children! It is prophet Mohammad's "suggestion": Make at least 3 children.
So I think that should be seen as a threat.
"If Norwegian Lutherans wanted to build a Church in Saudi Arabia, I doubt it would be allowed."
I'm getting sick and tired of this insane argument. So basically what you are saying is: there are conservative, close-minded people in Saudi-Arabia that aren't open for other religions, so it allows us to do the same? That's sinking to the lowest common denominator. Why not try to think in terms of enlightenment, and promote a bit more tolerance? Show you (as a country/culture/whatever) are above that kind of primitivity?
And as far as "integration" goes: if I'd be living in a country, where everybody of my faith (culture) would be considered an extremist and potential terrorist, I'd doubt whether I'd be really trying to integrate into that society. And the concept of "integration" issues like this bring forth is actually "assimilation".
And, slightly beside the point: a referendum (volksabstimmung) is basically a perfect tool for the "ruling majority", and maybe not the right way to decide what minorities are allowed (or disallowed) to do. Consider, for instance, why it would be possible in a democratic and advanced society that women's suffrage wasn't introduced until 1971? Maybe because the people that where allowed to vote (male) didn't feel the moral need to decide in favor of losing part of their upper hand?
And one last point: this entire discussion has nothing to do with esthetics. It's not about "the towers don't look "traditional swiss". If that would be the case, a whole lot more should be banned... The main argument I've been reading in the different newspapers that people are afraid of a growing extremism among muslims in Switserland. 350.000 muslims, with 4 (!) minarets in the country. I'd doubt that this is one step short of "trying to take over the country".
I lived in America for 31 years, and I know how Americans see and treat people from other religions. In America, mosques got attacked by religious zealots numerous times, especially after 9/11. Muslims are kind people. They try to exercise human rights at all times and they try to welcome foreigners, but I'm afraid the American people (at least the majority of them) won't be returning the favor back because, according to Christianity and Judaism, all people from other religions will end up in HELL unless they convert to Christianity or Judaism (you know, the chosen people). I read the bible (both he old and new testaments), it is full of hatred and violence. They have absolutely no respect for women and gays and they don't like "mixing in" with other folks. They preserve their culture and generally stay away from Muslims.
For 31 years I attended a Christian church. The sound of the homophobic, war-mongering, Christian missionary sermons felt like they were invading my brain. It definately changes the environment you live.
What I'm saying is the majority of Christian and Jewish people, especially ones who actively practice Christianity and Judaism, differ from Muslims, etc. Also, I'm sure you heard about the population decrease in America. Well, Christians (Jesus-loving fanatics of all denominations) as well as Jewish people sure like to make lots of children! It is God's "suggestion": Fuck like rabbits (in a heterosexual manner only though...unless you're a priest, of course) and spread the word of the lord. So I think Jews and Christians should be seen as a threat.
moslems are gonna end up in christian hell as much as christians are gonna end up in moslem hell and we both, moslems and christians, are bound to be mortal gentile minions below the jews.
ParadOxx86 Westerners are kind people.
i won't even start....
i will grant you this though...urban planning and design must take account of the sonic spatial 'colonization' per mosque. when i was living in jeddah, my neighbourhood must have had at least three mosques in close proximity to each other. i would literally hear a cacophonic fugue of adans wrestling with the demons in my head. seriously, hyper-zeal can turn into chaos. and the mo'athins really must pass a belle voix examination as well as the usual orthodox tajweed! there was this particular mo'athin who sounded like he was screaming the prayers out. what a headache. the prettiest adan i heard was in a dubai mall. what a beautiful recording.
Haven't all the great cultures in the West been created by fusions between various cultures???
Controling architectual scenary with political laws are a totally different story from controls with 'architecture or urban planning provisions".
The latter is fair enough to improve living environments, but the former is a brutal totalism or fascism.
The latter is the primary driver for physical and environmental racism in the United States-- from Jim Crow laws to blockbusting to redlining to the Interstate System to "the other side of the tracks."
Is it? I didn't know, in US, urban planning provisions being the primary driver for physical and environmental racism......
I know "Building Prices" separate living zones between social classes without even laws or provisions, though.
I think money is the best religion of all, it units all the religions. So lets say, some muslim leaders get together and give a nice donation to the Swiss, how about $100 million dollars! And just like that, the ban will be lifted and the minaret or two or 10 will be built.
Someone needs to invent a way to convey inflection, tone, and perhaps facial expression in digital correspondence. I can't tell who's joking/sarcastic/racist/dumb in this post anymore...
I say we're all going to hell, and I'm personally enjoying my way down.
and no... smiley's don't count.
Of course for someone who has never lived in a muslim country can't comprehend what I'm saying. You have to see it yourself.I'm not saying Europeans or especially Americans are angels fell from heaven.Sure you don't get much sympathy from people at church if you're gay but at least they don't do this: http://thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/Tehran-stoning.jpg
or this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CsNAB1sCKNg/RwlO-IFWQoI/AAAAAAAACcc/qF2fF9eay9Y/s400/Violence_against_Muslim_women.gif
or act like this: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/behead1.jpg
And I've never seen a Christian or a Jewish person blowing themselves in a building.
I've been living in US for 5 years and I'm very happy because nobody asks me why I'm not fasting on religious holidays,or asks me to cover my arms or legs because it is haram or cover my head and my gay friends don't get shot on the head or stabbed to death.
Majority of Christians don't follow the bible word for word,unlike some muslims who obey every word of the Koran.For more information I suggest you to read Irshad Manji's "The trouble with Islam today" before attacking my views and trolling on the thread.You have no right to insult my opinions if you've(especially if you're a male) lived all your life in your comfortable home in US abundant with freedom.
this is ridiculous.
Ditto on Orochi's "The latter is the primary driver for physical and environmental racism in the United States-- from Jim Crow laws to blockbusting to redlining to the Interstate System to "the other side of the tracks."
Switzerland, like many other western (cough France) european countries, hides it's xenophobia behind the guise of secularism. Minarets are incredibly beautiful. Also: they make total sense. precedent: he-llo christian steeples and spiky mountains. **architecturally** speaking, they represent an expressive monument to a shifting population. accept it or not; it's fucking real and arguablly provoked by centuries of their bitch-ass colonial meddling.
maybe there would be some credibility to this racism argument if the swiss didn't already regulate the hell out of every building, town, hill, mountain, etc.
for example, it's next to impossible to build outside of any town's limits without special permission. you rarely see fast food places and never a Wal-Mart.
their culture and politics often result in the cost of personal freedoms (opposite from the states) but this is the way they do things and they have that right.
sikhs, viet cong, secular lebanese and tamil tigers have all used suicide bombings to further their aims.
christians and jews use 'smart' bombs.
the leap from banning walmart and smart zoning to banning religious symbols is a huge one. though mcdonald's and burger king have made significant in-roads to the CH market and i also recall a KFC in genf. yech.
Well, I have lived in islamic parts of the world. I have enormous sympathy for the horrors women suffer in many islamic countries. But you must understand, this is not unique to islam. Women are treated even worse in many non-islamic parts of africa, and certainly dont receive the (relatively) fair treatment they do in the states and europe in india or central asia.
Im not saying islam isnt a factor, Im saying its not the defining factor. The treatment and atrocities you are describing, everywhere that they occur in the world, are almost always a result of utterly failed political systems, and the brutal regimes that exploit them. The Koran certainly does contain violence and intolerance, but so does the bible. Mao and Lenin called for horrendous abuses of humanity. In places and situations like that, you could just as easily swap out the Koran for the Bible or the Little red book and get a very similar result. Likewise, I could very easily imagine an alternate universe wherein a failed political reality in Utah or Mississippi would eventually lead to the abuse of women and gays every bit has horrible as in Saudi Arabia or Iran.And I've never seen a Christian or a Jewish person blowing themselves in a building.
Ignoring the unfortunate wording here, it actually isnt true that suicide bombing is unique to islam. In fact, the practice was pioneered by dutch and prussian romantics, and spread to buddhist kamikazis in japan and communist revolutionaries in south east asia in the middle of the last century. Osama bin laden and operatives in palestine actually derived the technique from watching hindu Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. People are usually quite surprised to hear that of all the documented acts of suicide bombing, (as of 2006, at least) there have been exactly zero committed by individuals educated in a madrasah. Religious education is a negative predictor for support for suicide bombing. 96% of all suicide bombers are western educated born again muslims who became radicalized in their 20s. The rest are non-religious lowlifes who follow childhood friends.
This isnt a religious doctrine. Its a tactic of desperation.
I'll also add, I have friends who are muslim here in the states. Ive had spent time with and had conversations with dozens of them in europe and india and kashmir, and not one has ever expressed sympathy for violence on religious terms. In fact, the people I lived with in Kashmir were some of the most open, generous people I met in the region. Its certainly true, in the west bank and iran and even turkey there is a hardline segment of the population that does support violence, but you will find that there are nationalistic, geopolitical reasons for this. Islam, self-identification as being muslim, represents an incredibly diverse set of beliefs and opinions, and you simply cannot make the generalizations you are making. Any more than you could indict all christians for violence in Northern Ireland and south america or all atheists for russian gulags and human rights abuses in china. Islam is not the common denominator here. Brutal, autocratic, intractable political leadership is.
We want what you want. I just dont think this law does anything to help us get there. You cant use discrimination to teach tolerance. I would think the goal here would be to do just the opposite, to reach out and embrace the peaceful, valuable facets of islamic culture, its art, architecture, its modesty, to be accepting of peoples rights to dress and congregate as they wish, and simply make focused demands on the specific issues of individual rights and liberties that are common to all people. If you want to protect women and gays, wonderful! Just do that. Dont make some absurd symbolic general insult toward an entire people.
this video was posted by the author as an ironic object where one municipality (istanbul 15 million pop. twice the pop. of entire switzerland, is advertising its brand as tolerant, multi religious. of course, this does not mean everything on the ground is picture perfect or as tolerant.
the istanbul municipality's approach must be commended because it sees and portrays "a better business, a better world city at peace with its complexities."
it is a positive imagery for co-existence and sustainable communities.
istanbul, because of its history, location and size, can play this major role as the ultimate junction of many crossroads like a giant billboard for the world.
i support this 'advertisement' and its product.
on the other hand, because of changing money markets and doing money/gold business etc., swiss banks are losing their importance as the years go by. i think swiss voters retreating back to provincialism and save the moment. switzerland, a land locked country, can make this overwhelmingly heavy handed decision to ban minarets, based its NIMBY-ism for the moment but it loses the trust of its muslim citizens. even though many of them are not devout subjects of their faith, this referendum has a strong tone of rejection of them by the swiss people of european descent. "The city of Zürich along with Geneva and Basel also showed a slight majority opposed to the ban, uniting the three largest Swiss cities in rejecting the initiative." (wik.on "Minaret controversy in Switzerland")
this is very interesting because most swiss people live in the cities., as much smaller provincial cantons of switzerland decide to stay suburban regardless their picture perfect heavily regulated environments, eventually they will be depend on the infrastructure and control they have vested in the urban switzerland.
there is also the two conflicted personalities of switzerland one all liberal, cosmopolitan, european center of UN, the other, the false symbol of neutrality.
the result of the referendum is humiliating to certain swiss friends of ours. i stay with them in solidarity and support their determination to build undivided urbanisms in their country.
i am very interested all these events happening across the european communities and these controversies are bringing the issues forward and forcing dialog into the mix. eventually it is going to be what the large cities are going to say it is going to be. in twenty years at the most.. these are the times when demographics are changing at the rates the world has never seen. we can be architects and creative agents to make this livable or live in denial under constant tensions, alienation and unrest.
Paradoxx...you have a lot to learn about the atrocities committed by Christians and Jews. I'm not gonna waste my time schooling you on Islam or Muslim culture...it looks like a few others here are doing that just fine. But I did want to respond to one thing you said...you say you never heard of a Jewish Suicide bomber? Let me give you a history lesson then. The first suicide bomber was a Jewish woman. Her name was Sima Fleishhaker-Hoizman, and she killed 12 innocent people in 1946 in what is now the Occupied Palestinian Territories, before the State of Israel was created. Pretty ironic that it was a Jew who invented this form of terrorism, eh?
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