My question in general has to do with how we as a profession can petition for changes within a governing body that affects the profession nearly universally?
NCARB sets the rules, but doesn't seem to have to answer to anyone. I'd love to petition the entity for rule change, but as there's no one person seemingly responsible for anything, and no real 'complaint department' - how does one begin?
Recently, after months of exchanging emails and phone calls - I was told point blank that I fall into a specific and rather large loophole in the profession, and was informed that there are a LOT of us swimming around in here.
My specific situation is this: I graduated with a non-professional degree, and was licensed in a state that doesn't require a M.Arch to sit for the ARE. I sat for, and passed the ARE and got my stamp in 2004.
After recieving my license to practice, I moved to another state to broaden my career horizons and began work for a nationally, and internationally awarded firm. My work has been published, peer reviewed and won national awards, and with 20 years of experience in the field in all aspects of project management, team management, building client relationships, contracts, and project scopes ranging from kitchen remodels to $300mil medical research facilities and stadiums - because of a single criteria in the NCARB BEA (Broadly Experience Architect) program - I'm not allowed to obtain my license in this state, and seemingly any other.
The line item is this:
"PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING:
You may only include in your dossier projects completed in the jurisdiction in which you hold or held registration for the project duration as examples of learning through experience.
Projects completed prior to initial registration in a U.S. jurisdiction and projects completed in a jurisdiction in which you do not or did not hold registration for the project duration are not eligible."
And just like that - my last 10 years of experience as a licensed, practicing member of the AIA & USGBC counts for exactly NOTHING.
All that NCARB can tell me is to "hang in there - the rules might change".
Is anyone else in this boat with me? How can we get the rules ammended? How can we make a change to the system that's rendered a lifetime of sleepless nights and project deadlines null and void?
I've paid all the dues, followed all the rules, maintained all my credentials, and yet - I'm not allowed to practice in the state I live, nor in any other states because of an education requirement for a list of courses - that I'm now qualified to teach.
I'm looking for anyone out there that can help, offer assistance or happens to be in the same situation. Anyone?
you still have the original license right? can you get licensed in another state through reciprocity? maybe hop from reciprocity state to reciprocity state until you get to the one you're currently in?
I don't really understand the problem, you are licensed in state A (where you originally passed the ARE), but ncarb won't transfer your record to another state B, because they have a rule that you cant get licensed state B because you don't have an accredited degree?
If so, that is retarded...If you are licensed, you are licensed, unless the state that you want to practice in has more stringent licensing procedures, for example the California supplemental exam, which understandably, you would have to take to get a license there.
I don't think reciprocity to another state is dictated by ncarb, but by the architecture board in the state in which you want to practice. Call them directly and explain the situation maybe you can appeal directly to the board.
You can also do an end-run reciprocity move through an international organization, like RIBA or the APEC Architect program (http://www.apecarchitects.org/)
I sympathize with you and know NCARB oversteps there bounds at times.., BUT this isn't a new rule. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's been in affect for 10+ yrs (20+??). No BArch/MArch = no reciprocity. 4yr degree = One state licensure. This was the main reason I went for BArch to avoid exactly what you are saying. Hope you're able to get it somehow. Contact your current state.
I'm getting my paper work from state A, but yeah - no licensure in state B and reciprocity has become NCARB dependent. State boards (no matter which state I've looked at) all take the "NCARB credentialed architects only" route.
Thing is - I have a driver's license in state B, I can still operate a motor vehicle in state A. Took the same tests, went thru the same IDP, and actually - for the first 2 years NONE of the work that I did at the firm that I relocated to was in state B... in a global marketplace - seems NCARB is hung up on who's backyard you're working in.
Just doesn't make any sense. Its not like I'm trying to side-step the system, but I am feeling like the little kid on the playground and the big kid won't let me play on the swings.
At this point its ludicrous to take out loans, go back and get my masters, just to obtain what I, in effect, already have. Especially considering its possible for me to be an adjunct teaching these same courses.
As far as I can tell, this one is more about obtaining fees and self-justifying they're own existence than it is upholding the credentials and dignity of the profession.
I'm trying, but I wouldn't mind a whole 'voice of the masses' thing to change the 'system'.
BArch wasn't offered in state A, at least not while I was in the program. Probably is now.
I'm sorry about your frustration, but isn't your beef really with the state where you now live? According to the rules of that particular state, you're not eligible to become a license holder in that state.
NCARB does not mandate how individual states establish licensure criteria - that's up to each individual state. NCARB can't trump an individual state's criteria and grant reciprocity to someone who doesn't meet that state's established criteria.
For example, if you obtain your initial license in a state, say, like Iowa but then need to become licensed in California, NCARB can't just grant reciprocity in California until you also satisfy California's more stringent seismic design qualifications criteria.
Yeah, this is not an NCARB, well it is but not in the way you think, this is a state thing. My state calls it "comity" not reciprocity, and in my state they tell me there are two ways to get "comity" but unfortunately the one way they tell me I could get licensed in this state, well, it either does not exist, or they have zero fucking clue on how to do it. Yes, you can drive in state b, but your state a license has an expiration date, and then state b would require you to take either a written test again, or even the driving portion again. Being an architect has no such requirement.
Change the law in your state.
Oh, I have a BArch, and licensed, what states require an MArch?
What frosts me are the states that accept either transcripts & experience (and a check) or an NCARB certificate (which costs a damn sight more than transcripts and the fee) but if you've ever had an NCARB Certificate you can ONLY go that route. NCARB money grab much?
Comity/reciprocity in most states these days (experience record and a check) only seems to apply if you were licensed before a certain date. Without looking it up I can't recall what date.
NCARB evened the playing field for the most part - but it still won't let me in the door.
Sorry to add to an old post but I am in the same situation so I called NCARB hoping that there was a way to appeal this provision. I was put in contact with Michelle Kinasiewicz who runs the BEA program. She told me yesterday via email that:
"...this coming July, it is likely that this requirement will be changed to allow work completed outside one’s jurisdiction of registration (under the supervision of a licensed architect in that jurisdiction). Any type of program change in requirements must be voted on and approved by majority of NCARB’s Member Board jurisdictions at our annual meeting in June(2014). Please stay tuned!"
I'm wondering if there has been a groundswell of people complaining about this onerous requirement causing them to rethink their rules. I implore anyone who is in this same situation to contact Ms. Kinasiewicz ([email protected]) and inquire the way I did so we can influence the voting in June. She responded to me in less than an 30 minutes.
^^This is great news. I am in the same boat as well since I am looking to relocate to another state that only accepts an NCARB certificate for reciprocity.
Time to start writing emails to the members of the board...
I am writing for my husband, and he is in the same boat as you. He has an associates degree (2.5 years with few electives-almost all Architecture), 30 years experience, the last 15 years licensed by a state that he has not done any work within. He got in under the old BEA rules, where work was accepted outside of the jurisdiction (one of the last Architects to file under the old rule in 2012). It's a long story, but we have over $10,000 in the BEA process, and nothing to show for it (which is really difficult for our family budget...when is the last time you spent $10,000 and got NOTHING for it?) He still has a couple of sections to pass. However, under the new rule he can not resubmit, because none of his 15+ years of experience would be admissible.
I feel victimized! How can this even be legal? Who gave NCARB all it's power? Do you know that they are classified as a NON-PROFIT??? Where are the checks and balances for NCARB? JMARCH, I feel your pain!
I just emailed Ms. Kinasiewicz to confirm that there may a chance at a reversal of this stupid rule. If what dpcleve wrote is true, it's time to UNITE and ask for NCARB reform!!
There should be a peer review board, or some kind of board to handle NCARB complaints, when it's our word against theirs, and they just say "no" or "too bad". Even the president of the US has to answer to someone, so doesn't NCARB?
"Stay tuned. There will be a vote at the next NCARB Annual Meeting in June on elimination of the project eligibility requirement to which you are referring in your email. I recommend continuing to check our website for further changes."
I am in the same boat as many of you here. I have written Michelle, as noted above, but have not received a response yet (it was only three days ago). I hope to hear more from her, however, am not holding my breath. Has anyone had any luck or advise to get around this obstacle? My biggest beef is that it stated perfectly when I received my license and inquired about the BEA program, I received documentation stating that the six years I needed to work with my license prior to eligibility to start the BEA process could be in a state that I was not licensed as long as it was under an architect licensed in that state. And now, after I have completed that six years and receive the documentation regarding the dossier, it says that the projects in the dossier must be within the jurisdiction in which I am registered. That doesn't make any sense. So I have wasted this six years when I thought I was gaining the experience for eligibility.
If anyone gains additional information on this subject please continue to post!
I am in a similar situation. I don't have a professional degree, but the state I reside in will allow me to become licensed. I planned on working towards reciprocity using the same BEA you were. I'll do some research and see if there is anything I can come up with. One of my superiors is heavily involved with NCARB; perhaps he can help.
Also, I know there are 15 states you can get licensed in without a professional degree. So if state B in your case requires a professional degree, that could be a hang up. The 15 states that do not require professional degree, they are: Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, New Hampshire, New York, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin. I hope this helped in some way.
Thank you for your comments. Yes, I am registered in NY, as I started my career there. I have been working, however, in MA for the last seven years and therefore do not have any work in NY since I have been licensed in order to submit a dossier for the 11 credits found in my EESA evaluation. I have been working in an architecture firm consistently for over 15 years and hope that there can be a way to get my NCARB certificate, however, the only way I see to get there is to move back to NY to work on projects within the state in which I am licensed. That is not going to happen any time soon. Thank you for your help and any updates on this dossier rule changing would be great!
To anyone who might still be following this topic: I emailed Michelle Kinasiewicz in June and heard back from her just last week regarding the dossier project requirement. She indicated that the board voted in the June meeting to eliminate a limitation on projects completed outside your jurisdiction. I have not found anything online to back this up, however, have seen other items posted online that came out of this meeting. I will take her word for it and proceed. This is great news!
I'm glad to see you haven't given up. I'm still following this topic because it directly impacts me to a certain extent. I am following in your footsteps so to speak. This is the official article you might be looking for:
NCARB - Favorite word seems to be NO
My question in general has to do with how we as a profession can petition for changes within a governing body that affects the profession nearly universally?
NCARB sets the rules, but doesn't seem to have to answer to anyone. I'd love to petition the entity for rule change, but as there's no one person seemingly responsible for anything, and no real 'complaint department' - how does one begin?
Recently, after months of exchanging emails and phone calls - I was told point blank that I fall into a specific and rather large loophole in the profession, and was informed that there are a LOT of us swimming around in here.
My specific situation is this: I graduated with a non-professional degree, and was licensed in a state that doesn't require a M.Arch to sit for the ARE. I sat for, and passed the ARE and got my stamp in 2004.
After recieving my license to practice, I moved to another state to broaden my career horizons and began work for a nationally, and internationally awarded firm. My work has been published, peer reviewed and won national awards, and with 20 years of experience in the field in all aspects of project management, team management, building client relationships, contracts, and project scopes ranging from kitchen remodels to $300mil medical research facilities and stadiums - because of a single criteria in the NCARB BEA (Broadly Experience Architect) program - I'm not allowed to obtain my license in this state, and seemingly any other.
The line item is this:
"PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING:
You may only include in your dossier projects completed in the jurisdiction in which you hold or held registration for the project duration as examples of learning through experience.
Projects completed prior to initial registration in a U.S. jurisdiction and projects completed in a jurisdiction in which you do not or did not hold registration for the project duration are not eligible."
And just like that - my last 10 years of experience as a licensed, practicing member of the AIA & USGBC counts for exactly NOTHING.
http://www.ncarb.org/Certification-and-Reciprocity/Alternate-Paths-to-Certification/Broadly-Experienced-Architect-Program/New-BEA-Process.aspx
All that NCARB can tell me is to "hang in there - the rules might change".
Is anyone else in this boat with me? How can we get the rules ammended? How can we make a change to the system that's rendered a lifetime of sleepless nights and project deadlines null and void?
I've paid all the dues, followed all the rules, maintained all my credentials, and yet - I'm not allowed to practice in the state I live, nor in any other states because of an education requirement for a list of courses - that I'm now qualified to teach.
I'm looking for anyone out there that can help, offer assistance or happens to be in the same situation. Anyone?
Thanks in advance.
That's usually how monopolies work. They answer to no one, therefore their answer is typically "no."
you still have the original license right? can you get licensed in another state through reciprocity? maybe hop from reciprocity state to reciprocity state until you get to the one you're currently in?
I don't really understand the problem, you are licensed in state A (where you originally passed the ARE), but ncarb won't transfer your record to another state B, because they have a rule that you cant get licensed state B because you don't have an accredited degree?
If so, that is retarded...If you are licensed, you are licensed, unless the state that you want to practice in has more stringent licensing procedures, for example the California supplemental exam, which understandably, you would have to take to get a license there.
I don't think reciprocity to another state is dictated by ncarb, but by the architecture board in the state in which you want to practice. Call them directly and explain the situation maybe you can appeal directly to the board.
ncarb sucks.
You can also do an end-run reciprocity move through an international organization, like RIBA or the APEC Architect program (http://www.apecarchitects.org/)
i second the motion to call the state licensing board, they sit above ncarb in the org chart.
Lol. Fucking architecture had got to be the absolute biggest cluster fuck of a profession.
I'm getting my paper work from state A, but yeah - no licensure in state B and reciprocity has become NCARB dependent. State boards (no matter which state I've looked at) all take the "NCARB credentialed architects only" route.
Thing is - I have a driver's license in state B, I can still operate a motor vehicle in state A. Took the same tests, went thru the same IDP, and actually - for the first 2 years NONE of the work that I did at the firm that I relocated to was in state B... in a global marketplace - seems NCARB is hung up on who's backyard you're working in.
Just doesn't make any sense. Its not like I'm trying to side-step the system, but I am feeling like the little kid on the playground and the big kid won't let me play on the swings.
At this point its ludicrous to take out loans, go back and get my masters, just to obtain what I, in effect, already have. Especially considering its possible for me to be an adjunct teaching these same courses.
As far as I can tell, this one is more about obtaining fees and self-justifying they're own existence than it is upholding the credentials and dignity of the profession.
I'm trying, but I wouldn't mind a whole 'voice of the masses' thing to change the 'system'.
BArch wasn't offered in state A, at least not while I was in the program. Probably is now.
I'm sorry about your frustration, but isn't your beef really with the state where you now live? According to the rules of that particular state, you're not eligible to become a license holder in that state.
NCARB does not mandate how individual states establish licensure criteria - that's up to each individual state. NCARB can't trump an individual state's criteria and grant reciprocity to someone who doesn't meet that state's established criteria.
For example, if you obtain your initial license in a state, say, like Iowa but then need to become licensed in California, NCARB can't just grant reciprocity in California until you also satisfy California's more stringent seismic design qualifications criteria.
Yeah, this is not an NCARB, well it is but not in the way you think, this is a state thing. My state calls it "comity" not reciprocity, and in my state they tell me there are two ways to get "comity" but unfortunately the one way they tell me I could get licensed in this state, well, it either does not exist, or they have zero fucking clue on how to do it. Yes, you can drive in state b, but your state a license has an expiration date, and then state b would require you to take either a written test again, or even the driving portion again. Being an architect has no such requirement.
Change the law in your state.
Oh, I have a BArch, and licensed, what states require an MArch?
What frosts me are the states that accept either transcripts & experience (and a check) or an NCARB certificate (which costs a damn sight more than transcripts and the fee) but if you've ever had an NCARB Certificate you can ONLY go that route. NCARB money grab much?
BEA program is $4500. + the $1500 NCARB filing fee. And that's only if all your projects for 6 years are in the juridiction you're licensed in.
I've research getting licensed in the last 7 states that I've done work in in the last 3 months and its all the same story.
My beef is with NCARB.
I'm still licensed in state A. Expiration dates be damned - I fought hard to get that far.
Its a national problem based on a singular ruling.
Comity/reciprocity in most states these days (experience record and a check) only seems to apply if you were licensed before a certain date. Without looking it up I can't recall what date.
NCARB evened the playing field for the most part - but it still won't let me in the door.
Sorry to add to an old post but I am in the same situation so I called NCARB hoping that there was a way to appeal this provision. I was put in contact with Michelle Kinasiewicz who runs the BEA program. She told me yesterday via email that:
"...this coming July, it is likely that this requirement will be changed to allow work completed outside one’s jurisdiction of registration (under the supervision of a licensed architect in that jurisdiction). Any type of program change in requirements must be voted on and approved by majority of NCARB’s Member Board jurisdictions at our annual meeting in June(2014). Please stay tuned!"
I'm wondering if there has been a groundswell of people complaining about this onerous requirement causing them to rethink their rules. I implore anyone who is in this same situation to contact Ms. Kinasiewicz ([email protected]) and inquire the way I did so we can influence the voting in June. She responded to me in less than an 30 minutes.
^^This is great news. I am in the same boat as well since I am looking to relocate to another state that only accepts an NCARB certificate for reciprocity.
Time to start writing emails to the members of the board...
BEA program is up to $5000. + the $1500 NCARB certificate fee"
Don't forget that you also have to pay the EESA Application Fee of $1975 to have your education evaluated.
I am writing for my husband, and he is in the same boat as you. He has an associates degree (2.5 years with few electives-almost all Architecture), 30 years experience, the last 15 years licensed by a state that he has not done any work within. He got in under the old BEA rules, where work was accepted outside of the jurisdiction (one of the last Architects to file under the old rule in 2012). It's a long story, but we have over $10,000 in the BEA process, and nothing to show for it (which is really difficult for our family budget...when is the last time you spent $10,000 and got NOTHING for it?) He still has a couple of sections to pass. However, under the new rule he can not resubmit, because none of his 15+ years of experience would be admissible.
I feel victimized! How can this even be legal? Who gave NCARB all it's power? Do you know that they are classified as a NON-PROFIT??? Where are the checks and balances for NCARB? JMARCH, I feel your pain!
I just emailed Ms. Kinasiewicz to confirm that there may a chance at a reversal of this stupid rule. If what dpcleve wrote is true, it's time to UNITE and ask for NCARB reform!!
There should be a peer review board, or some kind of board to handle NCARB complaints, when it's our word against theirs, and they just say "no" or "too bad". Even the president of the US has to answer to someone, so doesn't NCARB?
Thanks for letting me vent...
We should start a change.org petition to reform NCARB...
After all, this IS (or is supposed to be) a democracy.
I like the change.org petition!
I got an email back from Michelle:
"Stay tuned. There will be a vote at the next NCARB Annual Meeting in June on elimination of the project eligibility requirement to which you are referring in your email. I recommend continuing to check our website for further changes."
Let's UNITE!
I am in the same boat as many of you here. I have written Michelle, as noted above, but have not received a response yet (it was only three days ago). I hope to hear more from her, however, am not holding my breath. Has anyone had any luck or advise to get around this obstacle? My biggest beef is that it stated perfectly when I received my license and inquired about the BEA program, I received documentation stating that the six years I needed to work with my license prior to eligibility to start the BEA process could be in a state that I was not licensed as long as it was under an architect licensed in that state. And now, after I have completed that six years and receive the documentation regarding the dossier, it says that the projects in the dossier must be within the jurisdiction in which I am registered. That doesn't make any sense. So I have wasted this six years when I thought I was gaining the experience for eligibility.
If anyone gains additional information on this subject please continue to post!
JMArch
I am in a similar situation. I don't have a professional degree, but the state I reside in will allow me to become licensed. I planned on working towards reciprocity using the same BEA you were. I'll do some research and see if there is anything I can come up with. One of my superiors is heavily involved with NCARB; perhaps he can help.
Also, I know there are 15 states you can get licensed in without a professional degree. So if state B in your case requires a professional degree, that could be a hang up. The 15 states that do not require professional degree, they are: Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, New Hampshire, New York, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin. I hope this helped in some way.
Thank you for your comments. Yes, I am registered in NY, as I started my career there. I have been working, however, in MA for the last seven years and therefore do not have any work in NY since I have been licensed in order to submit a dossier for the 11 credits found in my EESA evaluation. I have been working in an architecture firm consistently for over 15 years and hope that there can be a way to get my NCARB certificate, however, the only way I see to get there is to move back to NY to work on projects within the state in which I am licensed. That is not going to happen any time soon. Thank you for your help and any updates on this dossier rule changing would be great!
To anyone who might still be following this topic: I emailed Michelle Kinasiewicz in June and heard back from her just last week regarding the dossier project requirement. She indicated that the board voted in the June meeting to eliminate a limitation on projects completed outside your jurisdiction. I have not found anything online to back this up, however, have seen other items posted online that came out of this meeting. I will take her word for it and proceed. This is great news!
@jlcardet
I'm glad to see you haven't given up. I'm still following this topic because it directly impacts me to a certain extent. I am following in your footsteps so to speak. This is the official article you might be looking for:
http://www.ncarb.org/News-and-Events/News/2014/06-2014Resolutions.aspx
Also, they want to reduce the total number of years it will take to be elligible for the BEA. That link can be found here:
http://www.ncarb.org/News-and-Events/News/2014/06-SpBEA-BEFA.aspx
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