it's real easy to get into real estate developerment as an architecture major...just get an entry level job for an architect, then work really hard on the cad machine and after a few years you'll be able to buy some buildings cheaply, sell them for more money than you paid and before you know it you will be a real estate developer. it just takes time, a little bit of hard work & a good patriotic attitude...that's all.

oops...i meant to say "optimistic" attitude...not patriotic. sorry, i didn't know what i was thinking.

god bless america. er i mean puddles.

so is that all there is to it?
or is there any more options
or routes?

if youre interested in real estate development, you'd be better off studying finance than architecture. from the developer's perspective, you don't buy/build buildings, you buy/build cashflows. understanding how they work is much more important to a developer than knowing how to detail a window.

I'd go for the dual major - re dev and architecture.

As xacto points out, being an architect will not necessarily help you much nearly as much as business and finance knowledge.

You can learn it on your own, however, but knowledge of some type of real estate is good. Most of my clients have either business or finance as their education, only one has any architecture knowledge (and he still hires for the arch portion, just not enough time in the day to do everything).

The other thing you need is a strong stomach for risk. You can make a lot, but you can lose a lot much quicker.

DEVELOPMENT**

haha

any one else have some feedback?
thanks for all who responded

i would say real estate development knowledge would be something beneficial in architecture, where an architectural background isn't necessarily needed to obtain a high social standing in real estate. if you are interested in real estate, i would avoid the long hours of architecture school and work toward a real estate license as well as learn other things such as finance as stated by xacto. unless you plan on owning a firm and building/ selling your own buildings (to do which you need a large financial backing such as a wealthy benefactor/ parents), major in something different than architecture.

well as of right now i'm in architecture
but not specifically with plans to become an architect.
i would like to know what i want to be when i graduate
but i dont like the one path, one career kind of buisness,
thats why i'm curious as to what else i can do with an architecture degree
or architecture education in general.

now if i continued on and became an architect, would i be considered a
developer as well if i lets say, flipped a house or two while still being an architect?

well you would be considered whatever you want to be, really, wouldn't you? i mean people are only what they see themselves as. i don't know how to tell you how to be considered something. no one likes any one path, you know. that's like saying the sky is a vacuum.

i don't frankly believe you'll have the time or desire to design and "flip" things because design is more of an addiction, but if you do, you would be a develotect i guess. or an archiveloper.

there aren't many architects who would rather consider themselves a developer than an architect, judging by reason.

this is getting out of hand.

if you are asking how to become a real estate developer, no one on this site really cares too much about it, i presume because it is an architecture site and not a real estate development 101 course. what school do you attend?

is this a joke

any monkey can flip houses -- an architect in development should be capable of doing so much more.

time is the biggest thing. they are both professions and require full time attention. Even flipping, to be profitable (which won't happen anytime soon), requires a ton of time.

It is not easy, but possible, to do everything if you don't have a family and don't mind working every waking minute (as we are).

IMO, architects (with the proper training) are exceptionally well suited for careers in Real Estate -- especially in Development. (Not so much in Finance, Operations or Leasing.)

One of the things we're quite good at, as a profession, is looking at an existing building, or a piece of land, and figuring out a good, or better, way for it to be used. Properly motivated, we quite capable of proposing both innovative and economical solutions to such problems.

However, the world of real estate is, in many ways, fundamentally different from the practice of architecture. Almost every single decision made in a RE firm is made for business reasons -- i.e. how does this decision improve the bottom line? Many, if not most, architects find this mentality troublesome (at best) or impossible (at worst).

Ask yourself why you want to pursue real estate -- if it's just for the money, that's probably not a sufficient reason and you probably won't be all that successful at it. However, if you see real estate as a natural extension of your architectural foundation and you are prepared to make business decisions (instead of design decisions) every day, then it can be a great way to spend a career.

That's not to say that work in real estate is devoid of "design" -- during my 10 years, or so, on that side of the table, I always felt that I always had more control over the final design of the project than I ever did when working in a design firm. But, those decisions always had to have a basis in business -- are you prepared to make decisions on that basis?

"One of the things we're quite good at, as a profession, is looking at an existing building, or a piece of land, and figuring out a good, or better, way for it to be used. Properly motivated, we quite capable of proposing both innovative and economical solutions to such problems."


This is the basis of why i am interested in architecture, and hence the reason i go to architecture school. I go to NYIT by the way. This is the reason i thought maybe development might have a little bit more arch. in it rather than all buisness. but im sure i got the answer. Though my hope is that development as an architect can be looked at as something more then just making a profit.

The reason for all the questions is because I was confused on what exactly a developer does. This does not mean I'm going to drop out of school and take real estate classes, it just means i was curious, and thanks to some people I have gotten alot of good responses.

And Quizzical, to answer your question, i am not too sure whether or not
i am prepared to make that decision. Im only in year 2 at NYIT so theres still alot of investigation i need to do before i come to a conclusion on what i want to do. Thanks for sparking that question though.

Develotect or an archiveloper. I like it blackharp.

But let's cut the kid some slack shall we? Obviously young and new to the world of architecture and with imperfect english. I'm a multi-path career guy myself and may well end up in one of blackharp's new job titles.

First thing you can do, read up on the basics of development:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate_developer

Then you need to figure out if you're a designer or not. If you love design and find yourself staying up all hours of the night trying to work out design ideas, then you'll probably end up as an architect who may do some development on the side and perhaps move into development full time well into your career.

If you find that design is really a means to an end, and that you're really more concerned with how it can make money for you, then your architecture career is going to be very short, and you should look into taking some real estate program to give you an understanding of the financial/legal side of things.

You might find that you like computer modelling, or small projects and end up in film, designing computer game sets, restaurants, branded environments, etc. Or you may find urban design more interesting and head into urban planning, government policy, etc.

To make it simple, let's try an analogy. You got two hamburgers. One is homemade with fresh ingredients from the local butcher and produce market. The other is a Big Mac from McDonald's. Which do you appreciate more? The homemade one because it tastes good? Or the Big Mac because it represents a huge commercial success due to it being a product of a well planned production process?

Apologies to the vegans out there. I gotta go get some lunch, stomach's growling.

Just saw the kid's most recent posting as i finished mine.

With a little more insight, I think it's clearer where you want to go. I'd say when you finish architecture school, go work somewhere to get a feel for the industry and then go back for a year or two for one of those new real estate programs that supply the finance side of development knowledge.

Will probably get you in a position where you can have much more control over big picture decisions much sooner than as an architect as many have said.

Ok,now off to lunch.

spaceman spiff.

thanks for the response. and thanks for interpreting
what i was trying to say. this was were i was getting at
and you pretty much nailed it on the head.

WHAT SCHOOL DO YOU GO TO?

i mean want to go to. sorry for the caps.

i stated it already

IMO, architects (with the proper training) are exceptionally well suited for careers in Real Estate -- especially in Development. (Not so much in Finance, Operations or Leasing.)

One of the things we're quite good at, as a profession, is looking at an existing building, or a piece of land, and figuring out a good, or better, way for it to be used. Properly motivated, we quite capable of proposing both innovative and economical solutions to such problems.



Although I just started in development, I couldn't agree more. There is a lot of architectural possibility on the business end of things, it's just a lot more broad brush in consequence. And unfortunately more often than not a negative one. but doesnt mean it always needs to be so. I would actually argue there is more architectural influence as a developer than architect.

To the OP, I would finish architectural studies and take a good handful of finance and development classes along the way. Get a good education and work for a bit to help you figure out exactly whether it is for you.

i meant grad school, not nyit, datkidbs.

next time clarify what you mean then :)

im not sure yet since i dont know exactly what
i want to do. if i go for a m.arch i want to try
to see about pratt, because i got in twice
for undergrad and as a transfer.

my opinion is with architecture and working at a decent firm, you will likely not be as bored than with real estate. i would stay in arch. school and plan on staying in the field until you have actually got a job in a firm to decide if you like it. if you don't, then you still have a degree and more knowledge from it. i wouldn't hastily move to real estate quite yet. my opinion.

p.s. i hate pratt, but it is a very good school!

well im a transfer so at nyit it will take a total of 6 yrs to get a b.arch
and only 4 years for a b.sci in arch. tech with a minor in construction management.

so ultimately i either have to get a masters or stick it out with the b.arch.
why do you hate pratt?

I'm not sure if you are still viewing this blog datkidpudge, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.
For a little background, I am currently in my last semester of Graduate school and will receive my M. Arch this May (FINALLY!) Anyways, like you when I was in my second year I was questioning architecture and seriously was looking at finance / business etc... This is when I began to get interested in real estate development and investing initially. After interviewing Brokers / developers and a few other contacts, I just thought that I should stick to architecture (for the time being). As I progressed through school my real estate interest grew tremendously. In second year we had our first major design problem on a blank slate (site). My Professor made the comment, " you can be a developer on this one". Something about those words stuck to me and I perked right up. Ok, I'll get to the point.
My dad was a developer as was his dad. My mom works for a commercial brokerage firm and the rest of my family is filled with architects, engineers, real estate agents. So I had a little background in real esate knowledge from my family. But, you can always learn on your own. I would advise you, as others have, to get your M. Arch. You can learn the business side outside of school, but I don't believe you can get the full benefit of learning what you do throughout architecture school on your own.
This is rambling on but I have to much to say to make it cohesive...
So, currently in my situation I am 23 and will graduate this summer. Over the past 2 to 3 years I have been reading any real estate book I can get my hands on, audio seminars, teleseminars for free online etc.... My advice is READ READ READ! Some good books I've read are "the Mcgraw hil 36 hour real estate investing course", "How to be a successful residential land developer", " commercial real estate 101 by Donald Trump", "Rich Dad Poor Dad".
Also, one of the most beneficial things for me was a 12 disc audio seminar called " The real estate investors college" by Dolf Daroose. This is amazing as it gives you a good insight into real esate investing, which is fairly linked to devleopment (in principle). This will run you $50, but well worth it !
As for me, I am going to work for a firm for awhile, get my liscence, and LEED AP etc... then during this time I (as will you if you follow this route) will be working for / with developers and making contacts. One thing holds true to alot of professions, its who you know that can make a difference, (not to say what you know is irrelevant). This way, when you do say apply to work at a development company, or go on your own, you will bring a lot more to the table than not having your liscence.
Hope this helps, and let me know if you have any questions. I know I'm going to be a developer some day and am excited by the thought, which will become a reality!
One last thing. If you think that is what you really want to do, then think as if you already are!

Prana1,

Thank you VERY much for your long detailed post. It was very informative. So I see that sticking it out with Architecture will help me either way, whether I stay in Architecture, or whether I do development.

I have a question on development as a whole. I know you referred to Development as finance and buisness oriented. Is development JUST buisness oriented? I have a small understanding of little things you can do with development, but I'm still confused as to what usually consists of being a developer. Like an overall definition of what you would actually do. Like is there any design that is incorporated that I can do, or is it all just business related with no real aspect of architecture at all?

Just trying to piece the information I have together, to see the whole picture.

Thanks

David

Development is a business, so to be successful the numbers have to make sense (this is true of any business, including an arch firm). When you design the architecture and also are the developer you are balancing design ideals against saleability and profits. Every decision has to make sense from both an aesthetic and a financial side.

A traditional developer will hire and architect. The architect will design something for them but is paid for their service, not on if they can save the development $10k by finding a less expensive option (like a flooring option). While I wont say that all architects dont care about the cost, it is not their profit that is affected by finding value (nice of them to do so, but as long as the design comes in on budget, they are successful).

So, when you approach it as an architect and a developer, you choose what is important, where to save money, etc. Every decision you make will determine your profit. This is both wonderfully empowering and very frustrating as it is up to you to find that balance of what will sell, your design ideals and making money.


Development is what you make of it. There are those that only care about profit and will ax anything and everything to make an extra penny, but there are also those that put in tons of effort to provide green alternatives, value and quality (but they still have to make their numbers work).
Mostly it just comes down to vision. Some have it and care, others dont.

interesting, def. sounds like a challenge.

now some examples of undertaking a development project would be
buying land, buying property already?
what else?

As a developer I know you can work solo, but how would one
work with other people and for an employer?

Like most things, development is about relationships. I have found that the most successful developers have successful relationships. So networking to find those key people in key places you will need is essential.

As an architect involved in development, I think you'll find that working on niche projects, difficult sites and emerging locations should come more naturally. You will also find working with marketing and sales people more easily, than say a builder that has become a developer.

Understanding how land beomes rezoned and hence more valuable is also important. You need to be looking out 3, 5, 10 and 20 years out.

Understanding the real costs of financing, construction and development and how money works is also necessary.

Having bollocks is key.

Understand that you can take a piece of land and strategically make it more valuable. You can make all of your money during the planning and design phases, and lose it all during the construction and sales phase.

Also, becoming the client instead of serving the client is something I've particularly enjoyed. Actually having power and control is quite liberating.

Development is not easy. It is a profession in its own right. The biggest mistakes are thinking that because you are an architect, then development is an offshoot of that. The other mistake is thinking that intelligence and sensibility are substitutes for cunning and mongrel.

Datkidpudge,

I was all set to apply to M.Arch programs after I graduated from college (not having studied architecture), but I got interested in real estate development. I worked in development for a few years, but now I'm applying to architecture school.

Hopefully I can help you with some of your questions:

Developers coordinate building projects. They bring together all the different people and resources and make it happen. They work for equity investors to find opportunities and closely manage the different skilled professionals they hire (lenders, architects, contractors, consultants, engineers, lawyers, sales/marketing people) to make the building get out of the ground and in use on schedule. It's a lot of meetings and a lot of time on the phone.

There is a huge range of development firms out there. There are two-person firms building small condo projects, and there are big corporations taking on massive, multi-year, mixed-use projects. Working for a small development firm (or going out on your own as a developer) will let you work on a lot of projects and let you get your hands on every aspect of the financing, permitting, design, construction, and sales process, but you'll also have a much riskier career path and less predictable pay. Working for a big development company (say Forest City, Hines, or Trammell Crow) will feel like working for any big corporation - steady (and higher) pay and a well-established career path with less risk.

Find some development projects going on in the city that you like. Find out who developed them. Try to get in touch with the developers and tell them you're a student and you really like their work and you want to learn more about the industry. Be well-informed and genuinely curious. A lot of people will blow you off, but there will be plenty who will be happy to talk about themselves.

If you do decide you want to pursue real estate development, join the Urban Land Institute - the professional association for the real estate development industry - and get involved with their Young Leaders Group. You'll meet a lot of people, learn a ton about the industry, and maybe even find a job opportunity.

Take any finance or real estate classes you can.

Try to get a development-oriented internship or two while you're in school (it might be tough though in this market). Not only will it help you get a job after school, but it will also help you figure out what kind of office culture and what kind of development work you like.

Learn about development companies. Go to their websites and read the executive's bios. Find out what they did to get where they are.

Also, the majority of developers are not cutthroat, profit-crazed maniacs. For one thing, there are lots of development companies that are for-profit but only develop affordable housing, and are operated by people motivated to do good for society while also earning a decent living for themselves (McCormick Barron Salazar, for example). With the exception of cartoon characters like Donald Trump, it's a pretty laid-back industry.