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Is minimum wage reasonable?

May 8 '13 77 Last Comment
backbay
May 28, 13 12:37 pm

jla-x:  i actually agree with you.  if only we could actually organize.

jla-x
May 28, 13 2:10 pm


It's a tough thing but I think a general interns union would be a better idea because it wouldn't seem to be singling out any particular profession.  


Miles JaffeMiles Jaffe
Oct 16, 13 11:12 am

Low wages supplemented by billions in govt welfare.

The report says "fast food" but applies to every minimum wage position.

wurdan freo
Oct 16, 13 11:48 am

intern union = complete waste of time. What happens when you graduate from intern status?  RA union? Joke of an idea. 

curtkram
Oct 16, 13 11:55 am

so if private industry stepped up and paid people reasonable wages and provided sound healthcare options, so they wouldn't need government assistance, we could cut taxes and reduce the cost of social safety net programs.  but, since private industry has chosen not to go that route, we'll just have to tax the upper- and mid-middle class more so the the lower middle class and poor people can survive.  as long as our monetary policy protects the ultra wealthy, we'll be fine.

Miles JaffeMiles Jaffe
Oct 16, 13 12:12 pm

In 1945 debt was 120% of GDP. Top tax brackets were around 90% and between 1945 and 1980 (RayGun's tax cuts for the rich and raises on everyone else), debt fell to 30% of GDP; we built a nationwide infrastructure of rail, communications, electrical service and highways; we put men on the moon *and* paid for a massive military industrial complex including >50,000 nuclear weapons.

And they want you to believe taxes are bad for business.

MyDream
Oct 16, 13 12:31 pm

I get paid min wage for the first 90 days and my 90 is about up.

 

Hell yeah keep it you'll get experience and if you keep going thru school you will have education and experience.

Non Sequitur
Oct 16, 13 12:35 pm

You get paid what you're worth.

I've been well compensated since leaving graduate school and all through internship. So much complaining in the air.

curtkram
Oct 16, 13 12:48 pm

how do you define what a person is worth?  do you personally get to make that decision, or is there a governing body that makes that decision?  an aristocracy perhaps?  do you think there is a magical invisible hand guiding the economy to make that decision for us?  is it god or gaia?  maybe the reptillian aliens?

i would like to hear more about your notion of how 'you get paid what you're worth' works, and how it applies to different geographic locations and economies.  does is apply to different professions, or mostly just ours?  on the surface it sounds like a throw away comment from someone who likes to feel superior to others but can't think through even the most simple problems, but i'm pretty sure you're smarter than that and can offer some valuable insight.

Non Sequitur
Oct 16, 13 1:30 pm

curtkram, your worth is equal to the value of your skills and expertise. I would assume that to be obvious, but sometimes spelling it out helps I guess. I don't understand why so many scream-out unfair compensation, just increase your worth through training and education or seek another market. Complaining just seems like the easy way out.

MyDream
Oct 16, 13 1:38 pm

^ i DISAGREE a draftsman should be paid 30k from the start it is the economy and the mood of the boss that determines one's rate of pay. I'm sure there are well educated experience architects taking cuts from pay or low balled.

Non Sequitur
Oct 16, 13 1:50 pm

Why? The minimum is the local minimum wage is plus whatever the company thinks it can afford to pay. That increase is calculated on how much an employee's efficiency and billable hours. A good employee will naturally commend higher wages than one who makes a minimal effort... but in your world, minimal effort comes with a 30k a year check.

Also, no idea what market you're in... but 30k/year is wicked low by the minimal wage standards in my market (Ontario, CA). I believe the average going rate for draftsmen is 34k to 38k here for those with little to no experience outside of the 2 year college diploma program.

MyDream
Oct 16, 13 2:28 pm

Well, the guy who had my position before me had a master's in psychology and a host of education. He started at min and then a raise after 90 days. So it doesn't matter where you are or how good you are your going to start off the same here in my office. He left with a years experience and was really good LOD 300 level we are still in business and my boss is like the best architect in the area so..........

30k is not min wage here that is like 15 bucks an hour and if 30k is min wage in cali then holy shit that sounds like bs.

Cali min wage is 8 bucks per hour here in Florida it is 7.50

Non Sequitur
Oct 16, 13 2:43 pm

Well well well... I was not aware there was an Ontario in California.  You learn something new every day. I meant Ontario, Canada and min wage is $10.50 an hour here and I believe it is to rise to $12 over the next few years.

sameolddoctor
Oct 16, 13 3:18 pm

Minimum wage for sketchup, autocad, indesign, photoshop etc work? Can I hire you? and please bring 3 other clones of yourself too. I can bill each of you at about 75$ an hour, and pocket the rest.

Oh wait, that is EXACTLY what your employers are going to do. Unless it is a high-profile firm, or a place that you can really get some good experience, I would work at subway instead. Oh Trader Joes offers 15$ an hour minimum.

Roshi
Oct 16, 13 3:29 pm

I can bill each of you at about 75$ an hour

Err.. can we talk?

MyDream
Oct 16, 13 3:31 pm

NOO!!! SCREW YOU ROSHI HIRE MEEEEEE

 

 

 

....LOL.........AND i need to move to canada

curtkram
Oct 16, 13 3:43 pm

from what i've seen, skill and expertise play a fairly small roll in what a person is worth, if you tie 'worth' to compensation.  if you have a good job from something other than somebody knowing somebody, i would consider yourself lucky.  skill and expertise might help you keep the job though.

there are a lot of people graduating with advance degrees and no job to welcome them.  that is, of course, because there are more people to do the work than there is work to be done.  when the recession hit, a lot of very talented people lost their jobs.  their talent/skills/expertise wasn't in question - it was the lack of work that caused them to lose their jobs.

when an employer is thumbing through a hundred resume's, they don't really know who has the most skill or expertise at a particular task, and their sample set is limited to the number of resumes and portfolios they actually review.  their consideration is also often limited to region of their office, further limiting their sample.  there isn't some mystical magic that brings employers and employees together, fitting the most skilled with the job most suited to them.  add to that the unfortunate fact that a lot of hiring managers and people running smaller firms are just plain dumb.  HR for larger firms are pretty much always clueless. 

what really helps to get your portfolio reviewed by potential employers isn't so much having skills and education, it's having an 'in.'  having someone in your network, or perhaps in your family, that can hire you is going to be a lot more helpful than taking night classes.

i'm not complaining, just trying to point out the obvious flaws in your cheerful theory that skills/education can improve your value, when so many other factors can play a more significant part in what happens in real life.

Non Sequitur
Oct 16, 13 3:54 pm

Consider me lucky then because leaving grad school I had no "ins" yet found a steady well-paying job in a small 20 person firm within 2 weeks during the recession (summer 2009). I even turned down offers from those I found insulting (12 to 15 per hr or roughly 32k/year). In the last since then, through internship and licensing, my salary has grown by nearly 40%.

Is this just a case of the loudest minority here... where the majority of people are adequately employed/compensated simply remain silent leaving those few who complain appear more numerous then they actually are?

Anyways, I've got to turn this email notification thing off...

curtkram
Oct 16, 13 4:29 pm

i also got a job without an 'in,' though it took longer than 2 weeks and was at the tail end of the previous recession.  also, i turned down a job for something like $28,000.  i asked the guy in the interview how a person would be able to pay for a small apartment with that salary, and he said that would be my problem. 

while i still try to learn new things and keep whatever skills i have intact, i consider myself quite lucky to have been given the initial chance to work in the field and to have remained employed in the field consistently since then.  basing a general theory of performance v compensation on a population sample of 1 isn't going to lead to particularly accurate results.  there just isn't any sound reasoning that i can see that would suggest people pay you based on your skillset, unless there is both scarcity in your skillset, and a reasonable concern that the company you work for could lose that skillset if they don't pay you more.  as has been pointed out above, there are a lot of people that would be quite happy billing you out at $75 or more and paying $8.

Miles JaffeMiles Jaffe
Oct 16, 13 4:45 pm

What you are worth is less about your pay scale and more about how much profit can be generated from your work. The less you are paid the greater the profit. U$A!

Not only does Non Sequitur benefit from national health care in Canada, but he also went to architecture school for a tiny fraction of the cost that US students pay. Friggin' socialists.

Volunteer
Oct 17, 13 4:13 pm

For three months total time the salary is small change for the firm no matter what. $15 an hour is the minimum he should get. He has worked for the firm before and been productive or would not have been asked back.

Veuxx
Oct 17, 13 4:38 pm

I'm at 45k fresh out of school with B.arch in Phoenix

I think there is a very loud minority while those that found jobs are very silent myself included

Non Sequitur
Oct 18, 13 12:09 pm

Veuxx,

I've seen numbers ranging between 40k and 50k per year through the various Canadian provinces for "straight out of school" intern architects (technologists and interior designers are at the lower end of this range). If you can work independently on CCs and know how to detail, there should be no problem getting something in this range.

sameolddoctor
Oct 18, 13 1:08 pm

Fuck the "ins". I never had an "in" to my last two jobs, which lasted 3 and 7 years respectively, and even in my current job. One needs to believe in oneself and churn out great work. The "ins" do help, of course but are not necessary

Nice
Oct 18, 13 1:30 pm

To the title of this thread, I would say no minimum wage is absolutely not reasonable. You went to school for many years, why would you accept the lowest amount of pay that a legal worker can get. Keep looking and find a job that pays you a livable wage.

BenC
Oct 18, 13 2:30 pm

We also have only a dozen or so (?) M.Arch programs in Canada, so our market isn't as flooded as in the States. That being said, jobs are still hard to come by, especially if (a) you are in a city with an arch school, or (b) a fresh graduate. I had to move to a small town of ~100,000 for my first real gig as the firms in the bigger cities were not even replying.

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