if this thread unfolds as you plan, you'll be perfect for real estate - you're getting others to do your work and your thinking for you, at a very low cost

:o)

i have gone into a surreal state.

new mexico?

you dont need to have a real estate degree to get into real estate. Just do your research, find a deal, and make it happen. I've found through my real estate experience the key is being resourceful. If you don't have the money to make something happen, find it. Find investors; if you can make someone 20% on their money in a year, people WILL invest. You have to set the stage for that to happen. Read as many books on development as you can, educate yourself. Know different loan types and structures in and out. Understand what type of building suits the market you're trying to sell or lease to; watch for upcoming developments from other larger developers to gauge which areas you should get in early, etc.

If you're looking to go work for a larger developer as an employee (i looked into this myself) you will probably have a higher salary, but if you're a design-oriented person, meaning playing with numbers and returns all day or managing projects isn't you're thing, it may be the wrong thing for you.

Once you're 'fluent' in the language of real estate it's not difficult to make 10times or more $ than what an architect w/ 5 years exp. would make.

I've related this story here before, but perhaps it would be useful in response to your post. My appologies to those who have suffered through it before.

I spent about 10 years in the middle of my career working in commercial real estate development firms. Before entering that field, I completed my architectural education, obtained my architectural license and obtained an MBA. That background will help you understand the context of my reply.

I think you need to be very clear about why you want to leave architecture and enter real estate. If it's all about the money, fine. Just be honest with yourself about that. If it's more (or different) than that, be sure you know specifically what you seek, and why -- and work hard to stay on that course.

There are a fair number of not-very-bright, not-very-well-educated, not-very-ethical people earning quite a lot of money in real estate. In my experience, these particular folks are in it only for the money - they have no higher ambitions at all. As an architect, I can't imagine you'd ever be happy in such a firm.

However, there are some very professional, and very successful, real estate firms that approch their work in a very sophisticated manner. Quite often, such firms understand (to a reasonable degree) the value of design and how good design can help them make more money, attract more clients, and build a sustainable development firm. As an architect, you probably would want to join a firm like that.

I believe your license would be important to you if you go this direction. My main reason for saying this relates to your credibility in a position of authority. Initially you will be attractive to a RE firm for your ability to manage the design and construction process. I believe you may find it awkward to manage architects (and engineers) when their professional credentials are stronger than your own. You need to be able to give them direction and evaluate their work -- having a license will give your both more confidence and more credibility in that role.

I think you should pursue an MBA or a real estate degree if you hope to make real estate your long-term career. If you hope to join a sophisticated real estate development firm without an MBA or a degree in real estate, you may have difficulty obtaining a meaningful position. I also think they will look at you mostly as a "design and construction manager" at first. If you have some meaningful business training, then they are more likely to think about you in a "development managment" role -- which is where all the real power and authority (and money) lies.

If you plan to enter real estate with the idea that you will transform the design thinking of your chosen firm, be very cautious. In my experience, people in real estate firms don't adopt ideas about design any more readily from internal staff than they do from out-of-house architects. If you are successful, over time you will gain more influence over the quality of design delivered by your firm, but you will have to earn that opportunity and you won't be able to compromise on the profitability expectations of the firm in order to accomplish that mission.

I really enjoyed my time working in real estate firms. I learned a lot, accomplished some meaningful work, made a decent living, and worked like a sonofabitch. I also became a better architect in the process. However, after a while, I realized that I didn't enjoy working with those people, and their customers, nearly as much as I enjoy working in a creative design firm. I returned to private practice, use what I learned there to make my practice stronger, and am really happy with my career today.

Best wishes - and, good luck.

some of the well established architects i know started out doing real estate first. by developing their own projects rather than searching for commissions, they could establish themselves a portfolio of works that will gain themselves credibility to potential future clients as well as generate press and attention, especially if what they designed is interesting. developing also comes with a lot of risk but i feel an architectural education will give you an educational advantage.

insert < jonathan segal > here

do you want large devlopment or neighborhood development?
either or I would encourage
licence first, re dev at USC second.

thanks guys
that was all pretty helpful.
i was planning to get the license but just wanted to hear what people had to say. im planning on trying to take most of the exams in the next few months. i do feel the license would be v important for credibility especially if i am outside the architectural loop.

and actually the usc program has been something ive had my eye on for a while. but the license def comes first. im really dreading having to deal w it though.

I completely disagree with the license. Credentials are easy to get and don't mean you know a lick about anything. You can spend your whole life getting credentials and studying for exams. Development requires a street smarts that you cannot get from credentials or academia, only from experience in the construction process, on the job site, in the field. I would spend more time learning that process then studying for exams. If you know that process then you will have to confidence to direct anyone, no matter what their credentials. You have to be able to spot a bullshiter.

if "credentials are easy to get" (which I dispute) then what's the point of not getting them,

if I were sitting across the table from somebody I know was trained in arch but wasn't registered, I'd wonder what the problem is with guy -- at least until I really got to know him really well.

get the license.

id have to say that yes street smarts and field experience are def needed but i think a certain amount of professional credibility is needed also. as mundane as it might sound. before you even get to meet someone there is often a need for a sort of paper declaration of who you are. which is why im gearing toward trying to get the license this yr. this is something that would help me immensely say if i would to change course and decide to stay within the architectural circle.

i really dont think its an all or nothing proposition in either direction. at least for myself the best and safest route would be to educate myself on the market while building my professional credibility. either way in a very general sense ive been meaning to get this license stuff out of the way for some time.

regarding the real estate degree i must say i would like to do it but i am hesitant at the commitment it would require...
thats a bit far in the future anyways.

ultimately i have to say i do feel a but weird about going back to in architecture for a year or two to end up leaving it. but as of now i feel like its the best way to go.

if things pan out, i can always decide to continue in architecture. if not i can continue on course to trying to work in the development field. im trying to make sure my options are open...

I think it depends on who you are working with. Most developers don't have any credentials beyond the work they've done and they understand it is more about the person and skills then a piece of paper.

There are a gazillion architects out there, getting drawings stamped is a breeze and costs next to nothing.

Do you research, learn the market and work on designs and pro-formas that you like and think will sell. That means ton more to everyone than licensure.

"at least for myself the best and safest route would be to educate myself on the market while building my professional credibility."


Sounds like a good plan, but don't underestimate the leg work needed to learn the local market and find opportunities.

i'm considering it. but sentiment is holding me back. for now.

presently real-estating (is that a word?) I've bought my first house - with the humble belief that it is for profit. It will take 5 months to complete but when finished will give me a 3 bedroom and pool, with a view, ample sotrage and a furnished apartment below (granny flat - though my grandparents have long moved to greener pastures). I may rent it out long/short term but will like to enjoy it first. I have an offer on another property just for the fun of it too.

trace,
in response to...

"There are a gazillion architects out there, getting drawings stamped is a breeze and costs next to nothing."

there are only about 125,000 of them in the US.
the plan stamppers are dying off and documents need to be developed in much more detail in order for them to be approved.

our firm provides development consuting services. I know we would not have a seat at the table w/ out our licences. For us it is the best of both worlds.

Get your licence FIRST everything is easy after that.

well although ive heard some v v strong 'license isnt necessary' arguments amongst some of my friends/ colleagues, im still leaning towards going to get license. im def not thinking of it in any way as being major leverage towards another career but i do feel like i need to consolidate my architectural background. i feel at worst the license will be a professional hedge of sorts. if im serious enough i think i can get it taken care of in a yr.

the one thing i have concluded though why i might need a real estate degree. ive talked to a decent amount of people who do real estate/ development analysis and theyve all told me that at a larger scale, i.e. corporate, i will need the degree. more than a few said it will be impossible to enter that world w a background in finance.

so quizzical what you had said about 'sophisticated' (im assuming v large scale development) real estate companies has been echoed pretty strongly by those ive talked to.

oh and also i guess i made an error in terms of what i meant my 'real estate'.

in the back of my mind i was thinking more of a corporate level, but would also like to hear how some have say moved into more local residential development, for example design-build or contractor/ developer...

also i need to add regarding the licensure. it isnt purely about the paper. i def need to round out my architectural experience since the bulk of my experience has been sd/dd based. i have worked on too many projects that have died right around or before the start of cd's.
so looking to add more cd and field experience.

ive seen more than few residential developments go busto before construction, a major factor being the developer either didnt have enough construction experience to recognize what they wanted was financially impossible for a given project/ site or didnt have someone with enough experience managing/ overseeing the project as it was developing. a lot of wasted money and in one case the office i was working for took a huge hit in unbilled hrs.

greenlander,

I noticed your title and I'm very interested in the same thing, moving from architecture to RE Development. Though my education and experience is architecture I am so sick of working in an office and watching projects come through from people who saw an opportunity and took the risk, and then reaped the huge reward.

I am an architect by education but I have begun to get in the real estate development game too. I had the benefit of having one of my Dad's best friends as a mentor, and he is a very successful real estate developer here in Michigan, and hopefully I'm on my way. While everyone on here may have some good insight, you should realize that the vast majority of these posts come from people in the architecture industry and not actually from Real Estate Development. The only reasons a license would be important would be if you want to get that added title for yourself, to kind of have something to show for all of your arch work, or if you want to go back to architecture in the future. If you've got the hours and you only need to take the test, you might as well do it, but the developer you end up working for couldn't really care less. Plans are very easy to get signed. I know lots of people that just have a PE sign them, it doesn't even matter if they are electrical, mechanical, civil, structural, or whatever. I know people who have their friends do it for free. Not that I'm recommending that, and it would be easier to bring something to the next office rather than down the street to have it signed, but no one is going to pay you more because you have your license. If you wanted to go into business for yourself and sign your own drawings it would be great, but really, you can find someone to sign them just like everyone else.

Some more advice...

-learn absolutely everything about the actual construction of the buildings, and be able to do it. Get some sort of construction experience if you can at all, even though you have a lot of education and office experience. Most of the developers I know are also their own contractors, and it is really important to know what's going on.

- think about codes in a different way, and know them backward and forward, which you might already. You need to think about them purely from an efficiency point of view. How can you take advantage of them to make this building in the absolute cheapest way possible. Money in development is made as much if not more so on the front end of things rather than when you actually sell the building. You have to know how to save money on all aspects, financing, design, construction, marketing, sales, in order to do well. For example, using firewalls to divide a larger building into segments to avoid having to install sprinklers and to allow much cheaper materials to be used in construction, and to allow much easier renovation down the road. Some architects think like this, but most don't, and the developers definitely know who is who.

Good luck and have fun!

themarqes so did you go back for any kind of schooling/ training or has yr mentor been training you along the way?

yeh the reason for license is to have something to show for time in industry, and more importantly just in case i go back, a.k.a. quizzical.

i def feel if youre on the development side and you dont know much about construction or dont have someone assigned to be really on top on things on the construction end its asking for trouble.

i worked on a few condo projects where tons of money where wasted since either the developer was only looking at numbers and wasnt seeing the long term consequences of the current design. like one time me and a friend were working on this project and it had this really convoluted arrangement of units which were def not the optimal situation for the developer and made it impossible to have a simple parking and structural system. this was all going to make things a lot more expensive. the project designer on our end was like dont worry client is going to pay for all this blah blah the design is good.
the developer had no idea how screwed up the design was. when we got prelim numbers the developer freaked out since he was just taking the sq ft of building x going rate for construction at the time.
all this snowballed more things got screwed up and the project never happened.

so anyhow this was v early in the project. and yeh i know this is not a typical example. usually the developer would have some kind of construction rep to oversee things. i cant even imagine the mess that could happen/ money lost if youre not on top of things when things are v close to construction or during construction. and i saw all this coming when i didnt know squat about construction and i still really dont know that much.

oh and are you in residential or commercial development? and how did you gain your construction experience? was this from architectural office work? or working in a construction company? from your comments i assume youre involved in the whole process, looking over the drawings, construction, etc. in addition to the numbers, pro forma stuff.

oh by the way the aforementioned project was when i was working in a corporate office here in l.a. i was just a drafting grunt on the project.