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Once more, with feeling: 3DH

SDR

I know there's been a lot of discussion about 3DH on the forum, and I'm a newbie. I haven't gone through the archives, but I suspect I might not find the answer to my question. So I've started this thread.

What are the structural merits/demerits of 3DH ?

Per asked me "what is wrong with this":

http://home20.inet.tele.dk/h-3d/manzard-wh-r.jpg

Here is my answer:

I see by the URL that this object may have been intended as a Mansard roof . That would explain the shape of the object -- I had assumed it to be a complete building.

My problem (aside from the surprising and unsupported claims made for the finished building, which we have never seen) is that it appears to be a monolithic construction -- like an injection-molded plastic box, let us say.

But we are told that this is made of finite pieces, so the question arises "where are the joints ?" In other words, to achieve maximum rigidity without excessive use of material, which pieces are continuous and which are interrupted ? Are the horizontal planes (roof and floor) spanned with continuous pieces -- like conventional joists and rafters -- with the cross members acting as bridging and connectors ? If so, why are they arranged (in plan) on the diagonal, where each spanning member must be roughly 1 1/2 times longer that would be the case if the eggcrate were oriented normal to the plan rectangle ?

Or is the structure made entirely of small pieces, as in a lamellar dome or vault ? The problem here would be that the planes of your structure are flat, so that the advantage of all the pieces being in compression is lost, and a relatively weak panel is the result: the rigidity is achieved entirely by the strength in each of the joints.

This leads to the question: what is the proposed material ? Are we talking about welded steel ? Bolted/glued wood ? This becmes vital when trying to determine if the amount of material required to make such an object is only a little greater or is a great deal more than what goes into a conventional structure.

I'm sure an engineer would have more specific and better-formed questions that I do; this is just what an interested layman can see from his perspective.

___________________________________________________________

Are these appropriate questions ? Can architects and others here verify for me whether these are legitimate responses to the question "what is wrong with this" ?

I am happy to see the contest that is underway. There seems to be a lot of interest, and Per seems excited. Progress has been made; the interface with the ground has been addressed for the first time, and we've just heard hints of acceptance of irregularities to solve specific issues. Maybe this baby can be slapped into some kind of shape. . .?




 
Sep 27, 07 2:50 pm
a-f

noooo!!!!!

Sep 27, 07 2:53 pm  · 
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rfuller

damn it. Here we go AGAIN! make it stop. MAKE IT STOP!

Sep 27, 07 2:54 pm  · 
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Luis Fraguada

Oh dear god woman/man! Do you know what you have done!?!?

Sep 27, 07 2:55 pm  · 
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el jeffe

and they'll tell two friends, and so on, and so on....

Sep 27, 07 2:57 pm  · 
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SDR

I sympathize and apologize. This seems to be the week for 3DH; if it's just too much please delete the thread or send it to Siberia. I like the light-hearted 3DH threads. . .

But aren't these the questions that anyone using 3DH would need to address ?

Sep 27, 07 2:58 pm  · 
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SDR

If there's a place where Per (or anyone) has addressed these issues, please send me to it !

Sep 27, 07 2:59 pm  · 
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strlt_typ
Sep 27, 07 3:04 pm  · 
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evilplatypus

this will answer all questions, in theory at least

hi all you fancy graphics lovers

Sep 27, 07 3:05 pm  · 
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rfuller

that's the thing SDR. He hasn't and he won't. He keeps touting this system as the best thing since sex, with no reason, no methodology, nothing other than crappy .gif's and name calling. If this was the only week for 3DH it wouldn't be a big deal, but its been going on for years. I think it just finally came to a head with everyone this week.

Sep 27, 07 3:06 pm  · 
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Apurimac

my boy, you have done the closest thing possible to unlocking pandora's box on this forum.

you have a few options:

you can read "Hi all you fancy graphics lovers" in its entirety looking for the answers, because those questions have been asked before.

or/and

you can go to design community and read that thread. Which i do believe is even more epic than ours in terms of how long it is and the flame wars that insued.

or/and

you can read all of per's badly written online articles about it.

Note to the admin:

Paul, please, please delete this thread!

Sep 27, 07 3:08 pm  · 
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eastcoastarch03

fuck 3dh. yet somehow, these threads still amuse me highly.

Sep 27, 07 3:09 pm  · 
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Apurimac

actually SDR i take that back, the box has been opened, but the more serious the discussion about this "system", the wider it opens.

Sep 27, 07 3:14 pm  · 
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SDR

Thanks, all. You will note that mine is the third post on the first page of the Design Community thread -- yes, I've been there too. Per has just answered the above list of questions, on another thread going in there. I suggested he post them here as well.

You may certainly delete this thread. It will be interesting to see what happens to the contest.

Sep 27, 07 3:16 pm  · 
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SDR

dammson, who is that -- and how is that interesting boat constructed ?

Sep 27, 07 3:21 pm  · 
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Apurimac

that, would be the infamous Per. That boat is constructed the same way almost every other boat is constructed, in a ribbed system similar to Per's "system".

Sep 27, 07 3:25 pm  · 
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Apurimac

i think i like him more as a shipbuilder, if indeed that is his boat.

Sep 27, 07 3:26 pm  · 
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SDR

Hmm -- the fancy graphic lovers thread here had design community all beat to hell. Al the right questions, right off the bat. Sorry I didn't get here sooner. I appreciate your patience -- with him and with me.

It is still intriguing, the attraction; is it the latent potential of the "system," in all its naivete' -- or is it the challenge of getting through the "brick wall" ?

Sep 27, 07 3:31 pm  · 
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PerCorell

Apurimac that boat is Not constructed in a rib system simular to 3dh, who shuld know ,man I designed it 3D unfolded the planking found a way to adjust for the changes in measures with the overlaps that is in lapstrake boatsbuilding, --- how arogant can one be, how would you know better than I , what is what and how it is done, in a boat I designed and build -- sadly this count each and any of yoyr claims , also there you speak like a shoemaker that try make himself a clever knoweverything-about, and yet what you say are all wrong it's like speaking to a klingon.

Sep 27, 07 3:34 pm  · 
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PerCorell

"That boat is constructed the same way almost every other boat is constructed, in a ribbed system similar to Per's "system".

Any other boat ??? Eh what about fiber glass boats do they also carry wooden ribs, where are the difference between clinker and cravel build do all diagonal build boats like all boats also carry wooden ribs -- what art they good for btw. or is that all the same and there are no resson to put in a stringer, no sorry stringers you wouldn't reconise at all even you are clever on any thing and better than anyone, isn't it so , isn't that your real problem, and ain't talking it out with each word you for some pervert reson try harm me with . and all while you describe your knowing nothing.

Sep 27, 07 3:41 pm  · 
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PerCorell

Sorry it's not like talking to a clingon it like filling a bucket with bricks.

Sep 27, 07 3:44 pm  · 
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SDR

I was puzzled by the dark stripe in the side that curves opposite to the lapstrake (?) planks. . .

Sep 27, 07 3:47 pm  · 
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ff33º
Sep 27, 07 4:31 pm  · 
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ff33º

Hot Klingon Boat Builder perhaps ?

Sep 27, 07 4:33 pm  · 
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PerCorell

Formfnction33 you are also totaly off the track -- it's perfectly ok when you go to a site about architecture, that you expect to talk about architecture from your emagination, praise the hero's you want and read the gossip.

But fact is that this is also an architecture site, and so real architectural issues is most relevant or , -- do you know that this Per Corell is in fact promoting a new way to build a house, a piece of furniture, the piece of furniture you would eat your arm to engage in a year or two ,please.

Please respect that to provide all the splendid new architecture, to be able to offer you your next house at a third the cost, the most fancy design and not just today's "best" at a horrific cost, then develobment are nessery ,and then even it is natural some other guy's, don't like what they instantly reconise ,as the idear _they_ would make themself famous on, is taken by this silli Per Corell, that ontop invented it.

Please know it's all for yours best --- what shuld realy be wrong with a bright idear, and isn't the reson you go to these fora's , exactly to be in there, not where jeloux guy's hount a guy who would bring you the fancy new revolution in architecture but can not do that, becaurse you don't even know this 3dh thing they all are talking about, and by social correctness, get to harm -- the wrong guy -- think about it, Per Corell will make you a mountain of tales and you being there supporting not an ugly wrong dirt campain ,, but promoting a house at a third the cost, for yourself.

Sorry the misspells, this was written fast and I newer will get better doing it. But is it that bad that this would just make another new job.

Sep 27, 07 4:47 pm  · 
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ff33º

Per show us your amazing houses, please.

Sep 27, 07 4:55 pm  · 
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PerCorell

But that has nothing to do with it -- "my houses" are all just testbenches to just "see" if this small problem or that little oppotunity now also work.
An intire design around a small detail ; that don't make as beautifull designs, as if the idear was to design an intire house and be several doing it --- it's all boredom when only one designer have had to discuss with himself about things, maybe others would handle much more elegant.

Sep 27, 07 5:14 pm  · 
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mdler

does 3dh work with illegal Mexican labor?

Sep 27, 07 5:22 pm  · 
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cityboy9

yikes: http://home20.inet.tele.dk/h-3d/

Sep 27, 07 5:23 pm  · 
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rfuller

Per hear me out on this. I'm not gonna insult you. I'm not gonna post any pictures of Klingon boat builders. I'm trying to help you out, here. So please consider my words.

1. I think most of the frustration everyone here is feeling comes from your responses. They ask for examples, or for proof, yet you never offer any. If you don't have any, that's fine. You have to understand that when they ask these kinds of questions, like the ones SDR asked at the top of this thread, they are not chastising you. They are not mocking you. They just were curious and want answers. I, for one, noticed you never show what kind of connections you would use in 3DH. It has been asked of you, yet you never give an answer. Instead of calling us naysayers and claiming that we are persecuting you, just answer some questions for once.

2. Quit hijacking threads. Seriously. I mean it. There are plenty of threads already out there concerning 3DH. And I acknowledge that other threads might actually lead to discussing 3DH while they did not start out discussing it. But if they are writing about problems with suburbia, 3DH is not the answer. If they are writing about global warming, 3DH is not the answer. At this point its nothing more than a theory. (Unless you want to show us some of your built work.)

3. I understand you are from Denmark, and your English is a bit "broken", but there are lots of free tools out there to help with the misspellings. Try using Firefox instead of Internet Explorer or Safari, or whatever you may be using. It comes with a built in spell checker. I understand the language barrier is causing some problems, but don't you think after 3 years of using this site almost daily you would pick up on things like the word "actually"? There's no "r" in it in case you were wondering. We only have two ways to communicate on this site, with words and pictures. Surely you understand that is why everyone gets so frustrated with poor grammar and spelling.

Look, so we're clear, I am not in favor of banning you from the site. I admire your persistence, while I disagree with many of your ideas. I just wish you would start giving a damn and make an effort to get along. If everyone doesn't agree with 3DH, who cares? I'm certainly in the minority here on several issues. I'm a conservative, from Texas, who loves country music and McMansions. I hate the work of Le Corbusier and I fail to see the beauty in modern and minimalist architecture. I'm not gonna beat myself up over the differences, either. Hell, I think New Urbanism is pretty damn great, and I wish more of these folks would jump on board with me, but I know they won't. And talking about it only leads to flame wars and name calling, so I just don't bring it up. But as an aspiring architect, I still have other areas of interest, and lots in common with these folks. I find other things to talk about.

I'm not asking you to give up talking about 3DH, just do it in a way that is more considerate of others, and perhaps with a bit more moderation. And for Pete's sake, get some sleep. It's getting late in Denmark.

Sep 27, 07 5:30 pm  · 
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PerCorell

sorry end of day.

Sep 27, 07 5:31 pm  · 
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brian buchalski

per doesn't sleep...he prefers to go on standby mode

Sep 27, 07 5:38 pm  · 
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eastcoastarch03

i think he's in coked out on 3DH. it dresses him up for the party, but never takes him there.

Sep 27, 07 6:30 pm  · 
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binary
http://youtube.com/watch?v=38_MwcGDNhQ
Sep 27, 07 6:54 pm  · 
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gonuts

wow. maybe there's a newsletter i could subscribe too?

Sep 27, 07 7:21 pm  · 
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PerCorell

rfuller I try answer , but can't you see it -- just got out of transfere mode and is griding my way to the computer and I find tree or four treads , that when I answer them will fill out the intire top of the site, --- belive me U would rather have not to "push away" other relevant treads ,but the ones to answer all carry different expertations for answers.

Please don't blame me that --- anyway the assembly join you ask is allready the hot subject in another tread; there are so many way's to do that and realy, I answered that many times, answered it by pointing to that you can remove the intire trouble and replace the notch with a fitting that would cover all places where frames assemble, making it so much easier to assemble the frames as the notch are gone and instead you mount a fitting a simple one even. Ontop I used that example to point to how this will offer a structure that is so much more flexible than a standard house basic structure, making it fairly earthquake safe, by controlling each and every "trouble point" as you think it, but I think it as a sweet oppotunity to expand the possibilities ---- I done that thruout the discussions every time this "problem" asked an explanation ; it is not a problem but a source to further expand the possibilities and in fact it ask a very somple solution .
But please understand my attitude -- I personaly know this work much better than expected, and I see people just getting off the ground, where I had a few glimps of what heaven this soon offer, I know how fantastic an experience it will be, when you realise how smooth this come to work , but I only has thes silli english words to communicate my visions. --- and let's agrea that this is about visions not words , I can't master it all, it's allready -- think about it --- enough to have been forced to spend 3 years at the architect school, be a master boats builder-designer , please understand that I ended up lectoring at the boatsbuilder school, had to learn weld Aluminium, become a skilled carpenter, know AutoCAD all way round and in my head -- don't let me contunue what have been nessery I just started.

But at some point you ask yourself what it is even worth when after a decade of slowly progressing and finaly ending up with the truth being "so simple that anyone would have found out that, and even they did not, but had to find it only when I started to publish me "simple solution", then --- well then where did the credits go :tell me how you would feel.

But forget about that --- you say this is not the solution to use this to make cheap nice houses ; what I say is that those houses are put together as we all emagine a house build, say from wave steel roof paneling , covering the openings, being used as a wall as they are, just covering the surfaces drawing a house as square as the sheets allow --- now emagine the same cheap materials cut into frames and used as molds for cheap concrete instead. Think about how an expensive engineering firm could only offer Zaha the tradisional formwork created into clumpsy unfolded CAD formwork, as rigid as an amature would aproach a 3D model. Remember how this offered Huge problems for the involved engineers now, flip the coin allow a bit newthinking and make these molds as 3dh cubes --- now "why" didn't they think about that, why didn't they think better with the Serpentine pavilion when having an army of engineers to figure it out ???

Trust me , I waited two years to publish but I was there way before any of those who seem to have grasped this idear from the air, without realising what I realise --- but maybe it's becaurse they was not seriously working for a decade, but looking for a spetacular new gadged, that they hardly understood ; now if I show you pictures of "mine" Serpentine pavillion you would instantly understand what I mean.

Realy I don't fancy these discussions to --- would you blame me if you read some of the replies,,, -- but slowly the vision are clearing and people realise what this was about ; some think Ionly did this to become famous and nothing is more wrong fame is the last thing I want, then why do people use that argument against a method, is that relevant ? but they do.

Now please understand how much of what you blame me, is acturly put into my mouth, things I newer said, agenda's I would newer conform --- and please understand that I did all this, only to make a revolution in architecture, by a life time of experience with making things and using the computer but only to offer a new way to put things together -- there are nothing more in it, but not knowing how far this go, what exiting options just a new way to realise a build structure bring, --- beside all that, it also bring me an understanding about how limited today's methods work , please understand that ; I know more than those surface modeld in 3dh you seen, call that a vision sorry, that's how I am put together, and I am not going to start exchouse for that.

"Now Per will .... ", "No Per will just as useal..." " Per think He ....."
These treads consist 90 pct. of what others "think" , and several don't even understand the system, so much in these treads are reflections of some wierd misbelive in the grand opotunities just a new way to put things together ----- and sadly it is was easier in year 2003 to go to the web and copy and paste my "designs" , forget that "design" is more than the looks of things, and forget that "design" is what the designer deliver , not just the fancy looks but the newthinking, the happy messeage that a "designer" "designed" a brand new way to use the computer for so many things --- now if you nderstand just each second word in this , you would know my "anger" about being cheated the credits, when you realise that such idear as simple it looks, ask not the wishes for extreeme new constructions and spetacular arts critics words , but years of hard work, then you proberly would know my "anger" --- thoug my "anger" is in fact my sad mood about what architects and designers think about credits -- but from experience I know the value of my inventions, compared the cramped wishes to make something just to stay "famous", --- that seem easier to rob from some othr designer, that's why I so stiffneck continue to talk about these things ; this being able to find new solutions, to turn everything upside down are my only gift, but when I finaly published they instantly started a jeloux rampage campain , that's how I experienced it, they started defending robbing intelectural property and continued with personal attacks, now that experience I also myst carry with me ; would you have the nerve to live that thru ????

Sep 29, 07 5:39 am  · 
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eastcoastarch03

i'd rather watch paint dry than read per's last comment

Sep 29, 07 1:55 pm  · 
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PerCorell

Ok Im'e deliver huge quantities in other branches of design and arts ; appropos paint check my newest Grafitti painting in Silver Screen Galleri ;

Sep 29, 07 4:26 pm  · 
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PerCorell
PerCorell

Please let me add an answer after all these years ;

http://www.123dapp.com/make

SDR ; will you please repeat your question ?

Or if it wasn't realy a question, what was it you tried to say ?

Aug 4, 14 1:02 pm  · 
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