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n_

^ oopsy, my index finger went click crazy.

Apr 26, 07 11:56 am  · 
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I think it's absolutely an ethical issue, and I don't have any problem telling someone so, either! I think because ethics are so often associated with religion, people look on them as fluid and personal and not appropriate for discussion. But not being a religious person, I see them in a much more matter-of-fact way.

Apr 26, 07 11:57 am  · 
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xtbl

n_ wow, 20 minutes!? that's pretty good! i was expecting you to say @ least an hour.

rationalist, i don't think ethics are associated with religion, but rather "morals" (which, maybe mean the same thing). and that is something that kind of bothers me (the idea that in order to have good morals one must be religious), but that is a whole other discussion!

i agree, it is a huge ethical issue. however, i'm not so sure that guilting people into doing things is the way to go. nobody likes being told what to do or how to live.

Apr 26, 07 12:05 pm  · 
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oh, and DubK, the reason for the curve on women's bikes is indeed to make the step over easier. This becomes particularly apparent if you ever wear skirts or dresses, as it is difficult to mount a man's bike without giving everyone a bit of a peep.

Apr 26, 07 12:05 pm  · 
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xtbl

ha ha, yes, i thought so.

Apr 26, 07 12:06 pm  · 
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Cris- that has always bothered me, too! I've encountered several religious people who have indicated that I have no right to have any sort of morals and ethics (pretty close to the same), as I've "given up on God." I think they definitely are associated, and that's an unfortunate thing, which I think is partially responsible for the climate of not discussing the planet on moral terms.

Apr 26, 07 12:07 pm  · 
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xtbl

frustrating, isn't it!?

speaking of morals, i was reading about chimpanzees and how they have "morals" and "ethics" within their societies. biologists believe that human "morals" evolved over time (this is evident in the chimp behavior.) read on:

ny times

stand to reason

Apr 26, 07 12:14 pm  · 
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n_

No, it's wonderful in fact. I'm an early bird so I take the early bus and miss all sorts of silly traffic. It depends what time I leave the office but it might take, at most and rare and far between, 30 minutes on my way home.

It is significantly shorter than driving my own car. My firm pays for our parking but it's across the river so I have to take another interstate to loop around the city, park across the river (about 1.5 miles from my office), and then take a shuttle bus to our office or walk (about 15 minutes). The days I drive my car, it takes about 45 minutes.



Apr 26, 07 12:14 pm  · 
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xtbl

well, awesome n_! for me @ least, it's always been the case that driving is quicker than taking the bus. however, once i get my new bike (!!!) i'm going to cut back on driving (hopefully get to the point where i don't even turn the ignition in my truck during the week).

Apr 26, 07 12:17 pm  · 
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starman

n_ thanks for the info. I am pretty new in this city. It is good to know that there are efforts to take care of this beautiful city. It'll be sad to see all the natural beauty of Nashville disappear. I did look for public transportation from Bellevue to Green Hills, instead I carpool with someone that works in the same office.

There so much nature, trees, rivers, open space here... it's nice.

I see a lot of development going on, I wonder if this is something recent?

There is a big opportunity with this development, I think, to incorporate ecologically sound building practices. I do not know much about it, I am newcomer into the field of architecture.

Apr 26, 07 12:18 pm  · 
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n_

Cris, I just saw that you lived in Franklin. That's were I am. Well, the weird part were it's psuedo Bellevue but Williamson County and Franklin address.

Apr 26, 07 12:18 pm  · 
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+i

my ecofootprint is 9. i'm in DC.

i got it down from 11 about two months ago :)

Apr 26, 07 12:20 pm  · 
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emaze

So I’m trying to figure out if you can get less than a 4 footprint (= 1 earth). Messed around with the thing and found out that if I was a vegetarian that didn’t own a car and lived in an apartment building would get me pretty close...

Apr 26, 07 12:26 pm  · 
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xtbl

oh yeah n_? interesting. small world! so, you're kind of north franklin, then? closer to brentwood? did you grow up there? i went to franklin high school, class of '00.

Apr 26, 07 12:31 pm  · 
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Well, my dad's pretty damn close (1.1 earths), and I put in that he lives with someone else in a 500 sq. ft. place (owners unit in hotel), all of his food is imported and meat-filled (island), but doesn't drive much at all (very very small island), and doesn't fly anywhere. So it seems doable.

Apr 26, 07 12:32 pm  · 
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starman

My personal views on ethics, religion and the environment.

I am Catholic (no practicing at the moment), and I think that no matter with what religion one identifies, that spiritual belief should make the individual take care of the environment, to live in harmony without damaging the earth, to use natural resources in a responsible manner. And as rationalist indicates, the condition of the planet must be discussed in this religious circles in moral terms.

Sometimes religion or its leaders, form a barrier between the here and now, and the spiritual wellbeing and make seems this environment as a passing one, it might be for a while, but there are others coming behind...

Well this is turning away from the discussion, apologies.

Apr 26, 07 12:41 pm  · 
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WonderK

Ha ha, I totally just bought a bike! Ha!

I've been researching for a while and I liked the more standard brands, but as soon as I saw that Dahon that Cris posted, I was like, "that's it! That's the bike!". So I went to the store, tried on one the same size, ordered it and put down a deposit. It gets here in about 30 days and if I don't like it, I get my money back.


Regarding the issue of morals and the environment, there has been a lot of talk about this lately. In fact, I remember hearing or reading a report about how evangelicals are starting to think that being stewards of the earth is part of their mission as christians. I think that spirituality and morality transcend religion though, and I think living on a healthy planet is a basic human right. Therefore I don't think that religious people hold the market on morality!

Apr 26, 07 1:04 pm  · 
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WonderK

PS. Interesting discussion about shipping containers here

Apr 26, 07 1:07 pm  · 
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wow, that was a quick decision! That must mean that's it's truly awesome in person. Let us know how it rides...

starman, you've got me all wrong. "And as rationalist indicates, the condition of the planet must be discussed in this religious circles in moral terms." Actually, I'm indicating that it must be discussed in MORAL terms by the religious and non-religious alike. The claim to superior moral grounds by religion is BS, and prevents serious moral discussions of a secular nature. I propose to remove that claim so we can all participate in these discussions whether religious or not.

Apr 26, 07 2:24 pm  · 
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xtbl

yes, because this is not a "religious issue" but a "human issue".

and cool dubk! so, the bike felt right? is it very heavy? did you fold it up? is it easy to do? did you take it out for a test spin?

Apr 26, 07 2:26 pm  · 
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rutger

My footprint = 2.7
NL average = 4.8

Apr 26, 07 2:39 pm  · 
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WonderK

rutger, I would love to live in the NL for a while and reduce my footprint like that......

Cris, I sat on a bike of the same size because they did not have the one that I wanted in the store. Those Dahons are actually lighter than a couple of the standard bikes that they had. I did not fold it either but when I get my bike in, they are going to help me adjust it and show me all the bells and whistles, including the built-in bike pump in the seat! Thanks again for the suggestion.

I should mention that I am a professional impulse shopper, don't try this at home.

Apr 26, 07 2:45 pm  · 
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starman

Rationalist, I agree 100% with you, I am sorry if I did not express my ideas clearly, I share your views and Cris I agree it is a "human issue" not a religious one. What I tried to say is that whether one is religious or not, religious is the wrong word, I should say if one has spiritual values one must take care of our environment, regardless of religion.

Again, I am sorry for the missunderstanding...

Apr 26, 07 4:08 pm  · 
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its sad that someone can think that people wouldn't have morals even if their perception of a diety has been challenge and/or eliminated.

The understanding and a belief in a universal faith is done on the premise that all people on the point of creation are intuitively good. It is as the pyschologists say a result of our environment (social, economic, etc) that makes us bitter, miserable and down right awful to be around

Apr 26, 07 4:17 pm  · 
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starman

I personally do not think that someone has to believe in a deity to have morals. Many people abandon their religious beliefs due to the immorality of their leaders. I think that morals are part of that universal faith you mention, and is through this innate "good" that one can transform our environment and prevent us from becoming bitter human beings.

Being religious does not mean being moral, being part of an organized religion does not mean being moral. Once we become adults we have the liberty do decide how we carry ourselves and how we interact with our fellow humans, nature, and how we treat the environment.

Do I recycle aluminum cans and plastic bottles, or do I put them in the garbage? do I work for a company that disregard the effect their practices have on the environment for the sake of making money, or do I find a compromise between making a living and being "good" to the earth?

I hope that I make some kind o sense...and as I said i was raised in an organized religion, I take what is good and try to apply it to my life and to the way I interact with others, and to other beliefs. I know I need to be more active and voice what is not so god about these organized religions.

Sorry for using this board for this type of discussion but I thin it is related to the built environment, design, architecture.

Apr 26, 07 5:38 pm  · 
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It definitely is, especially in the context that WonderK (I think) brought up, of why the environment is not discussed in moral terms. I think religion is a big part of it. The other part is that we don't like to feel badly about ourselves, and avoid guilt, but most of us are forced to feel guilty when we examine our actions towards the environment on a moral scale. Even though I now know that I utilize 8 fewer acres of earth than the average person does, I still have 7.5 excess acres to feel guilty about!

Apr 26, 07 5:47 pm  · 
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I feel guilty that i dont have a solar powered (even those the sun isn't out) backpack to power this laptop and dsl to stay in this chat.

Apr 26, 07 5:59 pm  · 
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starman

forgive my ignorance or laziness for not looking it up. What is the number of ideal acres a person should utilize? Is that the same as the ecological foot print?

Apr 26, 07 6:02 pm  · 
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I believe it's 4.5 acres, and yes that's the ecological footprint number.

Ooh, solar powered backpack? Do those actually exist, or are you imagining some ideal super-product?

Apr 26, 07 6:06 pm  · 
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starman

I saw a program on the Discovery channel the other night. Some Researchers are working on super thing and flexible photovoltaic cells and talking about painting that will have photovoltaic properties. I do not know the process, but photovoltaic fabric would be a great idea to manufacture backpacks and other products.

Apr 26, 07 6:14 pm  · 
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starman

Ooops my footprint is 15, lots of work ahead of me to improve!

Apr 26, 07 6:15 pm  · 
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starman

and I meant ¡THIN not THING!

Apr 26, 07 6:16 pm  · 
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found the backpacks! Those are sweet, though they specifically say they won't do laptops. Do you think these would be completely useless in Seattle?

Apr 26, 07 6:24 pm  · 
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upside

hmmm, im at 13.4, and the fact that i dont own a car gets cancelled out by flying so often. i also like steak.

Apr 26, 07 10:39 pm  · 
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they don't do laptops...well i don't fee so bad.

Just a shame not using up this lovely Caribbean sunshine.

Apr 26, 07 11:17 pm  · 
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surface

Hi everyone,

With all this talk of bicycles, I decided to post the bicycle I'm going to purchase: the Kona Africabike 3.0!

[img width=400]http://content.konaworld.com/webstore/images/products/2K7_AFRICABIKE_med.jpg[/img]

Here are some links with useful information:

http://www.konabiketown.com/ - list of dealers
http://www.myspace.com/africabike
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s1-3-12-15374-1,00.html
http://basecampcomm.com/images/spreadsheet/africabike/africabike_sheet2.jpg (detailed specs)

I've read several reviews of this bicycle, and all say that it's very low-maintenance and indestructable, and fine for urban use. I am a complete novice and prefer something simple, and did not want a racing-style bicycle. It was designed for health care workers in sub-saharan Africa to travel from place to place in order to serve a wider range of ill people. At $350 for a 3-speed (or $299 for a single speed) it is very reasonably priced, and it is a reputable brand. The price is all-inclusive for the frame, wheels, basket/back shelf, etc. It is also important to me to find a bicycle with a shape/design that I liked, but which isn't overtly flashy and stylish, as I wish to avoid theft/vandalism.

As an extremely wonderful bonus, for every two bicycles sold at retail, the company will donate one bicycle to a nonprofit organization in Africa.

Apr 27, 07 1:43 am  · 
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surface

Apologies - my image didn't work.

http://content.konaworld.com/webstore/images/products/2K7_AFRICABIKE_med.jpg

Here is the whole link.

Apr 27, 07 1:44 am  · 
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I love the style of the bicycle - very retro even better that its with social/green benefits

Apr 27, 07 2:37 am  · 
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something lewis black didn't poke fun at, but the first thing i noticed: all that green crap that oprah gave away had SO MUCH packaging. bet there was a lot of trash after that show.

Apr 27, 07 7:39 am  · 
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tap water snobs for sustainability:
http://www.slate.com/id/2165124?nav=tap3

Apr 27, 07 9:47 am  · 
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ok, so i'm finally getting around to posting on GTC... great job wK...

here's my stats:
Food: 5.4
Mobility: 0.7
Shelter: 5.4
Goods/Services: 4.2

Total: 16

not quite as bad as i expected... it could be lower if i rode a bike to work, but i'm required to have a car at work and i get paid an extra $90/month for it...

i also finally got around to watching An Inconvenient Truth last night... so much great information... although i did feel like it was a two hour advertisement for mac laptops...

and on the bike note... DWR is now selling these cool city bikes from Biomega... they don't have chains, which is cool, but kinda strange...

Apr 27, 07 9:48 am  · 
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WonderK

to add to what +q mentioned, NPR has a lengthy report on Chez Panisse
and how Alice Waters has a long history of cultivating relationships with organic farmers.

Thanks architphil! You and I are even....looks like we have some work to do.

Those bikes looks cool, although I have to say, it's a bit pricey, since it's Design (Not Really) Within Reach.

Apr 27, 07 10:24 am  · 
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+i

something totally random- but green - in DC...
i remember on the grad thread some people mentioned which schools their pets got accepted to...
there is a pet store on 14th NW which specializes in organic pet food, kitty litter, etc. it's a small little hole in the wall, but it's pretty cool in there and they're really helpful. it's called Pet Essentials www.greenpet.com
i bought some "organic" kitty litter made of wheat--- and there are no smells, toxins, etc. it's great. and it's cheap.

Apr 27, 07 10:37 am  · 
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plant a tree
Apr 27, 07 12:33 pm  · 
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JMBarquero/squirrelly

Well Congrats DubK....that is one sweet bike, you got the one of the ones that Cris posted right? The espresso? Those are alot better than what I imagined they would look like. As some of you know I am into bikes....I have a full suspension GT XCR 4000, bought about nearly 8 years ago now, and I love it. The beauty of it is that I can used it for anything, b/c it's a mountain bike.....but the ones you guys have posted (including namby) are pretty sweet.

And I have to say I agree with starman's most recent post about the thoughts on morality (morals) and it's affiliation (by some) to religion.

fantastic discussions all....I love this, we are back to normal.

Apr 27, 07 1:11 pm  · 
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+i

NPR'S science friday is broadcasting from cambridge today about sustainabilty + green design with professors from mit, etc.

http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2007/Apr/hour1_042707.html


guests...
Susan Hockfield
Professor of Neuroscience
President, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Cambridge, Massachusetts

Rob Pratt
Senior Vice-President
Henry P. Kendall Foundation
Boston, Massachusetts

Susanne Rasmussen
Director, Environmental and Transportation Planning
City of Cambridge
Cambridge, Massachusetts

John Spengler
Co-Chair, Harvard Green Campus Initiative
Akira Yamaguchi Professor of Environmental Health and Human Habitation
School of Public Health
Harvard University
Boston, Massachusetts

Rick Mattila
Director, Environmental Affairs
Genzyme
Cambridge, Massachusetts

Apr 27, 07 2:11 pm  · 
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+i

from npr's website:

What does it take to become the greenest city in the country? We're broadcasting this week from the Cambridge Science Festival. In this hour, Ira and guests look at Cambridge, Massachusetts' new energy initiative. The first phase of the energy initiative, announced last month, aims to cut electricity use by 10 percent and greenhouse gas emissions by 150 thousand tons, reducing the city's carbon footprint dramatically. The plan, which will target homes, businesses, and universities, will offer energy audits and cheap loans for doing things like installing low-energy lightbulbs, insulation, and more efficient heating and cooling systems.

We'll also hear about how one company built an eco-friendly office building. Call in with your questions and comments at 1-800-989-8255 (2-3 Eastern). Teachers, find more information about using Science Friday as a classroom resource in the Kids' Connection.

Apr 27, 07 2:12 pm  · 
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WonderK

I heart Science Friday!

They just said something I hadn't heard before....Boston is the *first* city to require LEED certification of both public AND privately financed buildings? Can anyone qualify this? I'm surprised that I have not heard of this yet....

Apr 27, 07 2:33 pm  · 
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+i

i emailed the ecofootprint link to my office. i ran into someone in the elevator on my way to lunch today who (mind you we live in DC) said his footprint is 28! wtf.
he's leed certified. haha.

science friday is the bomb.

Apr 27, 07 2:39 pm  · 
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WK, i read something about boston requiring LEED for private developments a few months ago... can't remember where... it was probably in either archrecord or metropolis...

Apr 27, 07 3:03 pm  · 
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