No need to get your panties in a knot, Donna. That I didn't recognize it is my fault. But the fact remains that it was unscrupulously pumped and apparently deleted for that very reason. Now why don't you go jump on snook, curt, tint and led - isn't that your job as forum nanny?
As to 'so privileged', I shall refrain from saying what I want to and just say that your dislike of me is more than obvious. Have a nice day.
Miles, it's not about not liking *you*, it's about not liking your constant panties-in-a-bunch attitude. You have plenty of valuable knowledge to add to this site but you constantly go into pitbull attack mode instead.
Frankly: we're all seasoned internet users. We're all able to recognize various things on the internet that are authentic and not. We should be adult enough to recognize things that aren't worthy of comment. If subtle ads bother you, the internet is not a place to hang out, because subtle and not-so-subtle ads are what makes the internet possible at all.
I ignore every single "what school should I go to" thread and "review my portfolio" thread because they don't interest me and I don't have anything valuable to offer; Archinect runs on people willing to share their knowledge.
I tend to assume any item starting with WIN X is not news. But given the number of posters here who obviously misread the comments, it probably wasn't clear enough that it was A - sponsored content / B - a contest to write "I am excited..."
Seems like a change in formatting or something to call out sponsored content would avoid future confusion. I don't see anything wrong with putting it in the news bar if it's clearly indicated - I see it all the time in unpaid but reputable news sites.
I'm guessing no one reads magazines, or watches any news, and only gets their info from Mother Jones, The Nation and Whole Earth Catalog?
Architect magazine does sponsored news content, NY Times does sponsored news content, hell, even Charlie Rose does sponsored news content. Quit being so naive.
If everybody else was jumping off a cliff, would you do it too?
Ads and sponsored content are generally pretty easily distinguished from other content in magazines and most mainstream news sources. Some blur the lines intentionally, some probably don't care and the lines get blurred anyway. In this particular case on Archinect, the line was obviously blurry. Otherwise there wouldn't be the confusion.
Archinect can make up its own mind as to how it wants to run their business and pay the bills. I have nothing against having them host sponsored content. I'm just pointing out that some times the sponsored content is better filed under a different category than "News." I've noticed sponsored content before in the news section and thought it odd to find it there so it isn't just this one occurrence.
Another point to consider is that in the Archinect app, there is no 'byline' that shows up to be able to tell that the author is a sponsor like you can on the website. By using the app, the reader is much less informed about the source of content.
I can't really figure out what the argument is about, other than the label on the front page. It obviously an advertisement and call for entry into a giveaway to a convention once you git into it. Pretty low threshold of controversy these days I suppose...
I think people read the comments first because it can help you decide if the piece is something you want to read, especially an article with several comments with questionable useful content. I do that sometimes, may have done it here, got the first impression from the comments, then only later realized it was a contest for proclaiming excitement.
Everyday Intern, your comment about the app is actually a problem IMO. I often check to see who authored a piece immediately after reading the headline, and it bugs me that the app doesn't show it.
So sorry, everyone, if you were reading it on the app and therefore couldn't' tell it was sponsored.
Miles I'll stop being "forum nanny" if you stop acting like a toddler having a tantrum when he gets his milk in the red cup instead of the blue, okay? Many people have put many hours worth of helpful content into the forums; I get upset when you piss all over it.
Miles, unlike you, I can read and think at the same time. I saw the piece and understood, immediately what the piece was, in fact the photo, was it not a dead give away? Are you one of those dopes from the island that thinks the phone call about a free trip to a fairy tale resort, is really free? TANSTAFL my boy, TANSTAFL.
As for jumping off a cliff, I'd say that's what most of the critics have done, like fucking lemmings.
Maybe next time Z100 gives away tickets to see ZZTop I should inquire as to whether or not someone is making any money on those "free" tickets.
This is an historic day! At exactly 1:26PM today the two Archinect Minders moved into negotiations to end the oppression…..will this mean that we can soon begin misspelling words and stop putting smiley faces on our posts?
Fact: Dwell is a magazine.
Fact: It says sponsor.
Fact: It's not a feature, it's not an editorial, it's not a competition.
Fact: It's an Event, and yep, what do you know, it's listed in the events.
So, why is this news? I'll tell you dummies why, because typically, entries to win passes to an event of this nature, have time associated with the drawing of the winner, you know like Powerball?
I think once one lemming deemed it heresy, all the others jumped in without doing the basic research.
The bifurcated knight riding to the defense of the paternalistic damsel who picked a fight. Talk about one side of the mouth biting the other, which angry jealous guy do I respond to - Ken or b3ta? LOL! Damn, I almost fell out of my chair laughing.
On the small chance that you have a neuron that hasn't derailed yet, it's not about the obvious fluff piece but the disingenuous manner in which it is presented and the way a sudden rash of new members pumps it up.
Donna, I'm surprised at you. You generally don't stoop to such pithy comments (privileged). That's Ken's/b3ta's standard.
Miles, there's no difference between me, or me, I'll say the same thing regardless of who I post as.
You, on the other hand have no problem telling people what questions are good, which posters suck, and generally how people should be, or view architecture, as though you know. All the while pretending you're down, the sad truth is you're white man of considerable means, raised in affluent family. Yeah, you're privileged.
You still haven't presented the slightest shred of evidence to support your claim of the disingenuous nature of the news piece, and I've given you facts. As for obvious, will one of you lemmings decide, is it obvious, or is it confusing? But you keep pounding your head on the bricks, you'll get there.
I don't like having to be a forum nanny, Miles. It brings out my nasty side. And I've always, always defended Archinect when posters bitch and moan loudly about something they think the site should/shouldn't be doing. We're all here able to have this conversation due to the largesse of Archinect who asks very little in return of us. Archinect doesn't even ask us to be civil in the forums, that's mainly me and a few others (it used to be Orhan a lot, too).
Likewise, I've handed myself over to Google and I'm not worried about it. It's the price of the contemporary world.
There's constructive criticism, and there's mean criticism, and I'm sorry that lately I've landed in giving non-constructive criticism but honestly the constructive doesn't seem to work.
The real question is, whether here on Archinect or other popular media, can you really separate the news from an advertisement? How about most things pass as design related articles? Aren't most of them campy little boosterist opinions?
The question is much bigger than the Dwell sponsored ad/news hybrid. Dwell is a has been still banking on white walls and stainless steel dishwasher sales. Who cares? Would I go to their event? If I am paid, hell yeah.
To the byline issue some brought up, I know early on when I started seeing sponsored content in News section I thought there should be a tag/keyword for sponsored content, but then noticed they were using the "user" byline to call attention to that fact.
Do the tags show in app? If so perhaps that is the fix? Otherwise, perhaps making the user/byline visible in app would be simpler? Perhaps both?
Would be curious to find out whether or not this content gets more traction than other types.
so some here would say 'news' is the same thing as 'advertising?' i would disagree, at least ideologically. 'news' should probably have more integrity, and a focus on journalism or some other sort of newsworthy type content.
allowing 'news' to be defined by who's paying for it presents an apparent bias. i would also say that if the podcast people, or others involved in the development of the site, get too vocal about defending hidden advertising or whatever, that would have a certain appearance of a conflict of interest as well. not that you can't or shouldn't be allowed to, certainly you have the freedom to have and express whatever opinion you want. i'm just saying that it might not look as good as you intend when viewed by others sometimes.
if you're going to post while mad at someone, it's often best to count to 10, drink a couple beers, and not post.
Once again, John Oliver had an excellent segment on sponsored content a while back. I can say for the most part i can spot it pretty quickly, if not before I even get past the first line in an article/editorial/"advertisement" And, I hate it reading Time, and Newsweek isn't as much about reading great writing about the world in which we live as much as it is sorting through the sponsored content to find something that isn't an ad, I'm being obtuse but it's getting there. I understand it's the price of doing business these days, publishers and media companies have decided it's more important being rich than it is being powerful, (which a free media can certainly be) (Also isn't that a Frank Underwood line?) Everyone has a price, hope archinect got paid, but the argument on principle is just silly...
I am in retirement from commenting on Archinect, but the gravity of this is such that I feel compelled to add my 2 cents.
This is your site and you can do what you want but if Archinect is going to use sponsored content(why are you not calling it advertising?) in the way this was then you will be in danger of losing credibility.
Have you ever seen the movie "Crazy People"? The whole movie is product placement.
Did this article belong in the News section? It would if it was not used for people to submit their entries, I believe.
I used to watch McNeil/ Lehrer all the time. Then I used to watch the News Hour with Jim Lehrer. I do not know what that program is now other than a waste of my time.
Archinect is an outstanding site.
I hope you all can figure out how to handle the advertising so that it remains so.
This is an article that I think I first started to notice sponsored content being put in the news section. In my opinion it does a much better job at transparency and announcing itself as sponsored content. I feel the biggest part of this is the first sentence of the article, "This post is brought to you by Alucobond." No confusion there.
Truthfully, I haven't noticed many other sponsored posts. I'm not sure how frequent they are or if I just don't look at them when they come up. The Alucobond one caught my eye, and obviously the Dwell giveaway has caught the attention of others (I didn't pay any attention to it until it came up in Thread Central).
Looking at the Alucobond post, it does us the byline "Sponsor" and is also tagged "sponsored." However, these are only available on the website, not in the app. This is where the disclaimer sentence is much better.
Looking at the tag for sponsored, it seems like the Dwell piece is the odd one out. There are other exceptions, but most of the other sponsored content follows the same model as the Alucobond piece with a minimum of byline, tag, and disclaimer.
Despite all this, I still feel that posting them in News is misleading. If Archinect continues I'll still come to the site (it doesn't bother me that much), but I wonder if there is a better way. People like Ned Cramer are already noticing how Archinect is handling sponsored content, wouldn't it be nice if other sites followed suit? Especially if they pushed the envelope a little further and found a model that works really well. It would be nice to have a distinction between [capital N] News, and the infomercials, advertorials, and other sponsored content.
curtkram, you're right that we should be nicer to each other.
Miles, I'm sorry I compared you to a toddler. I'll ask again, though, that you please not be so inflammatory in your opinions - though admittedly Thread Central is, and should be, a place where people (especially regulars) should be able to vent a little. Inflammatory behavior on other threads - *especially threads with potential new users of the site!* - doesn't help our reputation as a great place to discuss architecture.
This thread is trying in good faith to discuss good architecture - it would be lovely if everyone would post something helpful there!
I also want to clarify for the umpteenth time: I'm not anything official at Archinect, I'm an enthusiastic user only. I can't moderate posts, I don't have any more direct line to the editorial powers-that-be than anyone here (except I do talk on the phone with them once a week, but you can call our google voice line and do the same thing...(213) 784-7421). The last few comments have actually been helpful discussion of a constructive nature. Cheers to everyone for making them.
OK despite my pleas for everyone to be nice I have to commend everyone for their great work on this thread. Well done. Would love to see that momentum continue.
That a fake, right? This has to be some elaborate con, because nobody could possibly actually approve that logo, especially somebody who had to have gotten dick jokes constantly growing up...
I'll recommend this week's Archinect Sessions to everyone. James Biber is the interviewee and he's fun to listen to and a really smart and savvy architect. Great references throughout, he's both engaged in critical practice and critical of architecture's ability to create change...just great.
Thread Central
No need to get your panties in a knot, Donna. That I didn't recognize it is my fault. But the fact remains that it was unscrupulously pumped and apparently deleted for that very reason. Now why don't you go jump on snook, curt, tint and led - isn't that your job as forum nanny?
As to 'so privileged', I shall refrain from saying what I want to and just say that your dislike of me is more than obvious. Have a nice day.
My mistake, it's still up. And it wasn't curt, it was gruen. Nice one!
When something is posted under NEWS my basic assumption is that it's not an ad.
Agreed Miles. Posting sponsored content under "News" is misleading. It would be better placed under "Features" or "Competitions"
Miles, it's not about not liking *you*, it's about not liking your constant panties-in-a-bunch attitude. You have plenty of valuable knowledge to add to this site but you constantly go into pitbull attack mode instead.
Frankly: we're all seasoned internet users. We're all able to recognize various things on the internet that are authentic and not. We should be adult enough to recognize things that aren't worthy of comment. If subtle ads bother you, the internet is not a place to hang out, because subtle and not-so-subtle ads are what makes the internet possible at all.
I ignore every single "what school should I go to" thread and "review my portfolio" thread because they don't interest me and I don't have anything valuable to offer; Archinect runs on people willing to share their knowledge.
I tend to assume any item starting with WIN X is not news. But given the number of posters here who obviously misread the comments, it probably wasn't clear enough that it was A - sponsored content / B - a contest to write "I am excited..."
Seems like a change in formatting or something to call out sponsored content would avoid future confusion. I don't see anything wrong with putting it in the news bar if it's clearly indicated - I see it all the time in unpaid but reputable news sites.
Architect magazine does sponsored news content, NY Times does sponsored news content, hell, even Charlie Rose does sponsored news content. Quit being so naive.
If everybody else was jumping off a cliff, would you do it too?
Ads and sponsored content are generally pretty easily distinguished from other content in magazines and most mainstream news sources. Some blur the lines intentionally, some probably don't care and the lines get blurred anyway. In this particular case on Archinect, the line was obviously blurry. Otherwise there wouldn't be the confusion.
Archinect can make up its own mind as to how it wants to run their business and pay the bills. I have nothing against having them host sponsored content. I'm just pointing out that some times the sponsored content is better filed under a different category than "News." I've noticed sponsored content before in the news section and thought it odd to find it there so it isn't just this one occurrence.
Another point to consider is that in the Archinect app, there is no 'byline' that shows up to be able to tell that the author is a sponsor like you can on the website. By using the app, the reader is much less informed about the source of content.
We should be adult enough to recognize things that aren't worthy of comment.
Donna, maybe you should take your own advice and ignore my posts.
Quit being so naive.
I guess that means it's OK. It must be nice to have such high high standards.
Advertising is the most honest thing in media. Except when it's posing as news.
I can't really figure out what the argument is about, other than the label on the front page. It obviously an advertisement and call for entry into a giveaway to a convention once you git into it. Pretty low threshold of controversy these days I suppose...
I think people read the comments first because it can help you decide if the piece is something you want to read, especially an article with several comments with questionable useful content. I do that sometimes, may have done it here, got the first impression from the comments, then only later realized it was a contest for proclaiming excitement.
Everyday Intern, your comment about the app is actually a problem IMO. I often check to see who authored a piece immediately after reading the headline, and it bugs me that the app doesn't show it.
So sorry, everyone, if you were reading it on the app and therefore couldn't' tell it was sponsored.
Miles I'll stop being "forum nanny" if you stop acting like a toddler having a tantrum when he gets his milk in the red cup instead of the blue, okay? Many people have put many hours worth of helpful content into the forums; I get upset when you piss all over it.
As for jumping off a cliff, I'd say that's what most of the critics have done, like fucking lemmings.
Maybe next time Z100 gives away tickets to see ZZTop I should inquire as to whether or not someone is making any money on those "free" tickets.
This is an historic day! At exactly 1:26PM today the two Archinect Minders moved into negotiations to end the oppression…..will this mean that we can soon begin misspelling words and stop putting smiley faces on our posts?
Fact: Dwell is a magazine.
Fact: It says sponsor.
Fact: It's not a feature, it's not an editorial, it's not a competition.
Fact: It's an Event, and yep, what do you know, it's listed in the events.
So, why is this news? I'll tell you dummies why, because typically, entries to win passes to an event of this nature, have time associated with the drawing of the winner, you know like Powerball?
I think once one lemming deemed it heresy, all the others jumped in without doing the basic research.
^ Speaking of Minders.
The bifurcated knight riding to the defense of the paternalistic damsel who picked a fight. Talk about one side of the mouth biting the other, which angry jealous guy do I respond to - Ken or b3ta? LOL! Damn, I almost fell out of my chair laughing.
On the small chance that you have a neuron that hasn't derailed yet, it's not about the obvious fluff piece but the disingenuous manner in which it is presented and the way a sudden rash of new members pumps it up.
Donna, I'm surprised at you. You generally don't stoop to such pithy comments (privileged). That's Ken's/b3ta's standard.
You, on the other hand have no problem telling people what questions are good, which posters suck, and generally how people should be, or view architecture, as though you know. All the while pretending you're down, the sad truth is you're white man of considerable means, raised in affluent family. Yeah, you're privileged.
You still haven't presented the slightest shred of evidence to support your claim of the disingenuous nature of the news piece, and I've given you facts. As for obvious, will one of you lemmings decide, is it obvious, or is it confusing? But you keep pounding your head on the bricks, you'll get there.
Oops, forgot the required smiley faces
I don't like having to be a forum nanny, Miles. It brings out my nasty side. And I've always, always defended Archinect when posters bitch and moan loudly about something they think the site should/shouldn't be doing. We're all here able to have this conversation due to the largesse of Archinect who asks very little in return of us. Archinect doesn't even ask us to be civil in the forums, that's mainly me and a few others (it used to be Orhan a lot, too).
Likewise, I've handed myself over to Google and I'm not worried about it. It's the price of the contemporary world.
There's constructive criticism, and there's mean criticism, and I'm sorry that lately I've landed in giving non-constructive criticism but honestly the constructive doesn't seem to work.
Fact: Dwell is a magazine.
Correct, but Dwell isn't hosting the [news] article, Archinect is.
Fact: It says sponsor.
Not on the Archinect app. This only appears in the byline when viewed on the Archinect website. Nothing else refers to it as being sponsored content.
Fact: It's not a feature, it's not an editorial, it's not a competition.
You're right, but it fits those descriptions better than it fits news. Maybe there should be a new category for "Sponsored Giveaways."
Fact: It's an Event, and yep, what do you know, it's listed in the events.
Then why is the giveaway article it in the News section of Archinect and not the Events section? Even the actual hard link to the article indicates it as news not an event: http://archinect.com/news/article/127587227/win-two-3-day-passes-to-dwell-on-design-los-angeles-may-29-31
If this was really news it would be written (by a journalist) in a journalistic format and not be written (by a sponsor) in an advertorial format.
The real question is, whether here on Archinect or other popular media, can you really separate the news from an advertisement? How about most things pass as design related articles? Aren't most of them campy little boosterist opinions?
The question is much bigger than the Dwell sponsored ad/news hybrid. Dwell is a has been still banking on white walls and stainless steel dishwasher sales. Who cares? Would I go to their event? If I am paid, hell yeah.
As i commented on the Cramer podcast post, the native/sponsored content issue seems fraught with risk for most old/digital media companies. Andrew Sullivan at the old Daily Dish had a lot of great thoughts/comments on that...
To the byline issue some brought up, I know early on when I started seeing sponsored content in News section I thought there should be a tag/keyword for sponsored content, but then noticed they were using the "user" byline to call attention to that fact.
Do the tags show in app? If so perhaps that is the fix? Otherwise, perhaps making the user/byline visible in app would be simpler? Perhaps both?
Would be curious to find out whether or not this content gets more traction than other types.
we should try to be nicer to each other......
so some here would say 'news' is the same thing as 'advertising?' i would disagree, at least ideologically. 'news' should probably have more integrity, and a focus on journalism or some other sort of newsworthy type content.
allowing 'news' to be defined by who's paying for it presents an apparent bias. i would also say that if the podcast people, or others involved in the development of the site, get too vocal about defending hidden advertising or whatever, that would have a certain appearance of a conflict of interest as well. not that you can't or shouldn't be allowed to, certainly you have the freedom to have and express whatever opinion you want. i'm just saying that it might not look as good as you intend when viewed by others sometimes.
if you're going to post while mad at someone, it's often best to count to 10, drink a couple beers, and not post.
Once again, John Oliver had an excellent segment on sponsored content a while back. I can say for the most part i can spot it pretty quickly, if not before I even get past the first line in an article/editorial/"advertisement" And, I hate it reading Time, and Newsweek isn't as much about reading great writing about the world in which we live as much as it is sorting through the sponsored content to find something that isn't an ad, I'm being obtuse but it's getting there. I understand it's the price of doing business these days, publishers and media companies have decided it's more important being rich than it is being powerful, (which a free media can certainly be) (Also isn't that a Frank Underwood line?) Everyone has a price, hope archinect got paid, but the argument on principle is just silly...
I am in retirement from commenting on Archinect, but the gravity of this is such that I feel compelled to add my 2 cents.
This is your site and you can do what you want but if Archinect is going to use sponsored content(why are you not calling it advertising?) in the way this was then you will be in danger of losing credibility.
Have you ever seen the movie "Crazy People"? The whole movie is product placement.
Did this article belong in the News section? It would if it was not used for people to submit their entries, I believe.
I used to watch McNeil/ Lehrer all the time. Then I used to watch the News Hour with Jim Lehrer. I do not know what that program is now other than a waste of my time.
Archinect is an outstanding site.
I hope you all can figure out how to handle the advertising so that it remains so.
This is an article that I think I first started to notice sponsored content being put in the news section. In my opinion it does a much better job at transparency and announcing itself as sponsored content. I feel the biggest part of this is the first sentence of the article, "This post is brought to you by Alucobond." No confusion there.
Truthfully, I haven't noticed many other sponsored posts. I'm not sure how frequent they are or if I just don't look at them when they come up. The Alucobond one caught my eye, and obviously the Dwell giveaway has caught the attention of others (I didn't pay any attention to it until it came up in Thread Central).
Looking at the Alucobond post, it does us the byline "Sponsor" and is also tagged "sponsored." However, these are only available on the website, not in the app. This is where the disclaimer sentence is much better.
Looking at the tag for sponsored, it seems like the Dwell piece is the odd one out. There are other exceptions, but most of the other sponsored content follows the same model as the Alucobond piece with a minimum of byline, tag, and disclaimer.
Despite all this, I still feel that posting them in News is misleading. If Archinect continues I'll still come to the site (it doesn't bother me that much), but I wonder if there is a better way. People like Ned Cramer are already noticing how Archinect is handling sponsored content, wouldn't it be nice if other sites followed suit? Especially if they pushed the envelope a little further and found a model that works really well. It would be nice to have a distinction between [capital N] News, and the infomercials, advertorials, and other sponsored content.
curtkram, you're right that we should be nicer to each other.
Miles, I'm sorry I compared you to a toddler. I'll ask again, though, that you please not be so inflammatory in your opinions - though admittedly Thread Central is, and should be, a place where people (especially regulars) should be able to vent a little. Inflammatory behavior on other threads - *especially threads with potential new users of the site!* - doesn't help our reputation as a great place to discuss architecture.
This thread is trying in good faith to discuss good architecture - it would be lovely if everyone would post something helpful there!
I also want to clarify for the umpteenth time: I'm not anything official at Archinect, I'm an enthusiastic user only. I can't moderate posts, I don't have any more direct line to the editorial powers-that-be than anyone here (except I do talk on the phone with them once a week, but you can call our google voice line and do the same thing...(213) 784-7421). The last few comments have actually been helpful discussion of a constructive nature. Cheers to everyone for making them.
OK despite my pleas for everyone to be nice I have to commend everyone for their great work on this thread. Well done. Would love to see that momentum continue.
^ today was a good day
Killin it'. I just laughed loud enough for my coworkers to perk up.
I'm starting to think you're bipolar.
I'm not clinically bipolar, Miles, but I have ups and downs and moments of being pushed over the edge, as do most (forum) moms.
That thread is out of control... but how could you all forget Hugh Jass or I. P. Freely? Did none of you watch the Simpsons?
Schoon, go do it!
Amanda Hugandkiss?
Seymour Butz.
I think my favorite has to be Drew P. Wiener.
tintt won the thread, but tintt you should have include a link to Mr. Buschs' website.
It is a contest to see who recognized the reference... YOU WON! YOU HAVE WON A VIRTUAL TRIP TO http://www.dickbuscharchitects.com/
Dick Busch is hiring.
That a fake, right? This has to be some elaborate con, because nobody could possibly actually approve that logo, especially somebody who had to have gotten dick jokes constantly growing up...
Rumor from years ago is that Dick Busch is real. Someone here called the office; they were not amused.
Gotta love the logo.
See the logo, looked at his work – Think the operative word is “clueless”.
The logo is so...active.
I'll recommend this week's Archinect Sessions to everyone. James Biber is the interviewee and he's fun to listen to and a really smart and savvy architect. Great references throughout, he's both engaged in critical practice and critical of architecture's ability to create change...just great.
Donna... I read that as Justin Bieber.
I know, it's confusing. Not the Biebs, trust.
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