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Unemployed grad watches family pay $30K to another architect. Frustration.

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I have family members who recently had a flood in their country home in the Northeastern United States. The home has been flooded 3 times in the last 10 years but the basic structure has stood for 100. Before the most recent flood, this property was valued at $1M. It's a secluded and rustic site located between a river and a canal, surrounded by the woods. 

I graduated from a top Master's program (Ivy) 2 years ago and have been struggling to find a job that pays. Perhaps they see me as inexperienced, or maybe they don't understand where I'm coming from. I've been "commissioned" by them to find bathroom hardware for their full-time home. The comment that revealed their lack of understanding of the field was, "Hey, since you're an architect, what are the hours of the art museum in D.C.?" Last month I received an email from them letting me know of a social media job.

On one hand they are trying to be helpful, but on the other, I'd love to get involved in this very real ARCHITECTURE project. I admit, I'm not prepared to be functional entirely on my own, but I just am frustrated that they didn't even ask about ideas, or use it as an opportunity to negotiate experience for me. Instead, they hired a much more experienced architect to do some schematic work at an estimate of $30,000 for just the drawings. Good for him, but WTF??? 

 

 
Sep 22, 11 9:10 am
tagalong

Unfortunately for many of us, our parents/family members aren't like Venturi's Mom, granting us license to express our genius while they foot the bill for the project. For the rest of us, our family members have an impossible time looking at us as the expert, as opposed to the snotty nosed kid who used to run around the house during holidays...especially dads/uncles/etc...you're so much younger than they are, how can you possibly know more about a subject than they do? At least they're using an architect as opposed to the home builder friend who wants their business for another Mcmansion. Good luck.

Sep 22, 11 10:04 am  · 
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NSG.

It's just bad timing I guess. Don't worry it probably won't be fun anyway.

It happens to all of us. 

Sep 22, 11 10:29 am  · 
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won and done williams

I understand your frustration. I went through the same thing after graduating. However, I think as you progress in your career (and despite the economy, you will progress), you will find that your education alone has not prepared you for professional practice on even a simple project like the one you described above.

Shortly after graduating I exercised my creative genius on an addition to my parents' house. It was an utter disaster. I tried to include all sorts of things they had no interest in. I paid little attention to their budget. I had almost no idea how to interact with contractors. It did not get built, and my parents are still in need of work done on the house. In retrospect, I wish I had never taken on the project at that point in my career. I had too much to learn, too little experience, and I think my parents' impressions of me as an architect are clouded by that project despite now having many years of real experience and growth in the profession.

While there is this idea out there that architects need to be more entrepreneurial, I believe you also have to appraise your own experience and when it is appropriate to try to run your own projects.

Sep 22, 11 10:55 am  · 
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m.i.a.

Trust me, this is not necessarily a bad thing. I did a project for a close relative a few years ago, a summer house. They asked me to “make some sketches” for them, which I was happy to do, seemed like fun and I had recently graduated. I was eager to take on a real project of my own. I spent a couple hundred hours over several months making plans, sections, perspectives because they could never make up their minds on what they wanted.

They said some pretty rude things about my work which I just accepted, I was so eager to do a good job for them. Looking back I see they had no respect for my work or my skills and simply took advantage of my eagerness. After months of working like this, I eventually told them, I don’t know what more I can do for you. They ended up hiring another architect and building something that looks like it came from a catalog. It’s not even so much the money, but they never even thanked me for all the time and effort I put in. It was a real slap in the face. I still see them frequently at family events, but our relationship has never been the same, I avoid them as much as possible and they avoid me. It’s terrible.

I have friends who have similar stories. Sometimes these things work out and sometimes they don’t. I understand your disappointment, but I wouldn’t be too sad if I were you. It could have ended well, but it could have also ended like this. 
 

Sep 22, 11 11:25 am  · 
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toasteroven

agreed with won-

 

it took me 10+ years before family trusted me to do any sort of project for them (and only after they saw the work I did on my own house).  You're green, you've only been working for 2 years - and you're not licensed.  They obviously care about you, but just like any other potential client they know you have absolutely no experience.  For most people your own house isn't something you'd entrust to someone who hasn't done anything before.  Maybe they'd let you design and manage something smaller...

Sep 22, 11 11:34 am  · 
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3tk

I proposed designing a home for my parents as an independent study in college, got laughed at by some of the faculty and was told to refer to 'A House for My Mother' to see the dangers.  Ultimately they let me move forward with it and like won and done, i did not pay much attention to the budget, and the estimate came over a few times over.  It took about 6 months before they were even talking to me again.  In the end, compromises got made, I handed the SD drawings over to a local architect and the house got built more or less as originally intended.  I'm stuck fixing up a lot of the contractor's mistakes now and doing some finish work.

They seem to like the house so far, but the initial couple of years before and immediately after construction started were a nightmare.  I can easily imagine the whole process backfiring. 

Start small, maybe offer to do a shed or a bathroom to see if they like your designs?

Sep 22, 11 11:48 am  · 
 · 

you're so much younger than they are, how can you possibly know more about a subject than they do?

Generation condescension at its finest. You do realize society requires constant uninterrupted growth right? If you don't trust and or take risks with the younger generation, there's going to be a very high probability that they won't do anything.

Also, read a book, the internet or the millions of things now at your fingertips. It's not difficult to become a expert in a subject through erudition.

 

For a slightly more on topic and less snarky version, you were simply overlooked probably by your relative's insurance company and their very specific demands.

Three major floods in 10 years is extraordinary. Even if you have the skills to mitigate such an issue, you probably don't have the licensing, liability insurance and E&O insurance to deal with such a hazard.

Also, your relatives probably don't want you because they don't want to sue you at a later point.

You should be happy with picking out the pulls. Those are some of the most personal items in a home that are touched and looked at everyday!

Sep 22, 11 11:53 am  · 
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citizen

Wow.  What an amazing thread, and thanks to all who posted what in some cases are  painful memories.  But painful memories lead to important lessons in life and professional practice, which is the point for our OP.

I've been annoyed over the years that my mom and dad don't seem to remember their son is an experienced architect (whose education they helped pay for!).  But after reading the posts above, I'm now glad they've never asked me to do work for them.

Of course, I'm sure lots of success stories are out there about working for family... but the potential pitfalls and dangers to relationships are real, clearly.

Sep 22, 11 11:59 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

My parents are having a drafter design an addition to their house. I feel bad but glad I don't have to deal with it! You should ask to see the plans and then make some good comments on them. Then they can take those comments back to their architect who can figure out how to incorporate them.

Sep 22, 11 12:09 pm  · 
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citizen

JJR makes a good phlosophical point about risk and change.  

But most people who are actually writing checks for their future home are not concerned about philosophy.  They want to make sure someone competent and experienced is at the helm.  As for expertise-through-erudition, that's fine for discussions of art and theory, but most people will prefer to hire someone who's built many buildings over someone who's read a lot of books, at least when it comes to their home.

Sep 22, 11 12:11 pm  · 
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jmanganelli

it's for the best.  don't overestimate the value of education, book learning, and 'design' skill.  they don't qualify a designer to build or work out thorny technical issues.  rather, these things are like good spices whereas the practical and technical experience is like the meat and vegetables --- the spices can really enhance the product, but without the meat and vegetables, you don't have much.  

i have a colleague from egypt. There, an architect is 'licensed' as soon as they graduate, and can design any building.  BUT, they cannot sign off on drawings until they have fifteen years worth of experience.  i would venture to say that the same holds here, even though our licensing works differently.  a good education and 2-5 years of experience do not make a person a fully functioning architect.  this may not be an issue if you work for a large firm and your role is only concept design or only detailing or only code work.  but a little project such as you describe requires the architect to be in command of all phases and really does required a very qualified person with years of experience.

Sep 22, 11 12:35 pm  · 
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Urbanist

I've been fortunate enough not to be unemployed, but I had a similar experience.  I volunteered ... to do the design and drawings for a residential expansion of my parents' mcmansionesque house.  Free of charge.. dutiful son and all... Not to boast, but I've won awards, I hold a senior positon at a renowned firm, I have credit for entire built neighborhoods of cities

... but NO.  Not good enough.  Job went a family friend.  No residential single family experience, they said.  They have a point, but still, I was pretty offended. hehe.

Sep 22, 11 3:37 pm  · 
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pale shelter

as many say, your education (i assume, and thru my perspective graduating 3 years ago) taught you minimally about anything and everything about this industry. You probably had one "professional practice" class and 2 on building systems - where maybe you spent more time trying to design a sweet wall assembly or curtain wall pkg then you did understanding water-proofing or foundations...

Regrettably, this is an unfortunate fact of our current and past 2 decades of architectural education. We come out knowing minimally about project mgmt, what a spec book is!, public approvals / processes, resiliant channels and acoustics, how to run a business, how to bill, what a stand pipe is, why alum cant bond to steel, and budgets!...etc etc.... My alma mater once had architecture in the engineering college, now it's in the design college with graphic design and artists. No harm there, but i think it's slightly revealing when your relatives ask you "what are the hours of the art museum?"

So i really wonder if you or I (recent grads) have the capacity to do anything half-way serious with even a single family residence. I've learned a lot about what I don't know the last few years - this is knowledge development -  but I do know another thing and a piece of advice - we need to act more like we DO know what we're doing! Ever meet with a financial or wealth mgmt adviser? these ppl NEVER tell you a damn answer or give you advice (well i guess they can't - ha) but it's the fact that they are confident and can silence a room - young architects i've come to find do not develop the strong mentality to promote themselves and grow into serious professionals who can really convey a message that they are capable and competent . (or i may argue, the profession doesn't promote this like they do in other professions) hmm...

Sep 22, 11 11:03 pm  · 
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drums please, Fab?

^ omg do u like tears for fears ?!?

the hurting is a lost/forgotten (most don't know 'bout it) master~peace!!

i've done a couple projects for the family; they turned out pretty well in that everyone was happy.  but i didn't do them right out of school (and i'm glad for that).

Sep 22, 11 11:35 pm  · 
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Token AE

I never thought that I would say this, but:

Listen to JJR.

They did you a favor. It may be offensive to you now, but as you grow as a professional you will look back on this and realize the gravity of the messes that you could have gotten yourself into.

Sep 22, 11 11:46 pm  · 
 · 

i suppose the schools should be more clear about things with their graduates and let them know up front that when we finish university we will not be in any way competent enough to design and carry out the construction of much of anything.  experience is a big thing.  much as i like the sentiment of JJR that the internet can teach a lot it really can't. 

if you are lucky enough to be offered a job to make your mistakes on i think i would recommend that you make every effort to be sure it isn't for a family member.  unless they are very forgiving or particularly savvy.

Sep 23, 11 5:26 am  · 
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elinor

i wouldn't take it so personally--family members may be reluctant to work with relatives because they don't feel like they can speak their minds or insist on their preferences the way they would with an unrelated professional...my mother wouldn't even let me near her bathroom renovation because she knew i would resist letting her have what she wanted...and when i saw the faux-gold fixtures, boy was i glad!  that said, i don't agree with those who advise you not to take work unless you're 100% confident you can pull it off...if you never take on work you're not sure you can do, you'll never advance very far.  nobody was born knowing how to design a supertall highrise...

Sep 23, 11 10:00 am  · 
 · 
elinor

ps--have you thought about asking them whether you can observe or 'sit in' on the process?   it might be a way to gain experience and convince them you're serious for the next time they need architectural help...and might even help you make some connections through the other architect...

 

Sep 23, 11 10:06 am  · 
 · 
∑ π ∓ √ ∞

"A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for his client."

Consequently, an architect that takes on family/friend is fool with a client...

Sep 23, 11 10:17 am  · 
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jmanganelli

i second elinor's suggestion of asking to sit in, if possible.  

...and with her suggestion that you should take risk's...however, there are risks and there are risks...going over budget or screwing up details for a bathroom or kitchen renovation is one thing, stumbling through fixing a compromised foundation in a flood-prone area is quite another...but if you want to parlay picking door hardware into other interior design work, that might be a good exercise

Sep 23, 11 10:58 am  · 
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toasteroven

elinor - agreed that you don't have to be 100% confident  - but you should have at least have a couple people you know who can help you if you get into trouble.

Sep 23, 11 2:03 pm  · 
 · 
elinor

^^ absolutely.  line up all your friends/former employers/friends' former employers...always know when to ask for help, and always know what you don't know.

Sep 23, 11 2:30 pm  · 
 · 

i suppose the schools should be more clear about things with their graduates and let them know up front that when we finish university we will not be in any way competent enough to design and carry out the construction of much of anything.  experience is a big thing.  much as i like the sentiment of JJR that the internet can teach a lot it really can't.

Of course you'd say that as you're a paid academic. And I totally respect academia as having spent far too many years within it. There's a definitive point in academia where instruction is essentially useless as all learning take places from meditation and synthesis of knowledge gleaned from reading lists and reference books.

How to build a house using the internet:

Prem Krishna. Wind loads on low rise buildings — A review. Journal of Wind Engineering and Industrial Aerodynamics.

O'Rourke, Michael; Koch, Paul; Redfield, Robert. Analysis of Roof Snow Load Case Studies: Uniform Loads.

Dennis J. Hall. Architectural Graphic Standards for Residential Construction. American Institute of Architects.

Timothy A. McClain, Timothy A. McClain Gary G. Heinrichs Daniel E. Hunt, Gary G. Heinrichs, Daniel E. Hunt. Community Flood Mitigation Planning Guidebook.

S. Abdol Chini and Kavita Gupta. A Comparison Between Steel and Wood Residential
Framing Systems. Journal of Construction Education.

Parsons, Austin. An analysis of residential window waterproofing systems. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Zhai Yanbo,Chen Jiexiang,You Jinqiu. Analysis of leakage causes of a residential roof.

Ya Feng. Thermal design standards for energy efficiency of residential buildings in hot summer/cold winter zones. Energy and Environment of Residential Buildings in China.

Steven Bliss. Residential Structure & Framing:
Practical Engineering & Advanced Framing Techniques For Builders.

And last but not least...

Maureen Mitton, Courtney Nystuen. Residential Interior Design: A Guide To Planning Spaces.

Sep 23, 11 5:06 pm  · 
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jmanganelli

I take it you're being flip, jjr.  

book/web knowledge is sufficiently removed from reality --- desiccated, you might say --- that there are always a multitude of additional factors to be dealt with in reality that books or the web cannot adequately represent -- for instance, how to deal with certain time constraints when actually building something --- setting times, staging work, logistics,etc, that can completely highjack the process if you do not know how to manage them, some of which you only understand when you have to really deal with them. 

there is no substitute for experience.  if there were, then i would believe that a web experience or read experience of architecture or any other physical, emotional or temporal phenomena were truly equal to the real thing.  then there would be no reason to actually build, to actually play sports, to go to live concerts, to travel, actually love another person.  but there is something lost in abstractions and for that reason, practical experience building, designing, administrating is not equatable with any book or web learning.

Sep 23, 11 5:32 pm  · 
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Rusty!

re: discussion between JJP and jmanga.

Construction industry is a bit of a black hole when it comes to books and internet. I own a bunch of specification documentation (that cost $$$) explaining most of technical issues during construction. None of this info is available anywhere for free. 

This is in stark contrast to what internet enables one to DIY in about everything else. 

A young designer should be able to tackle on a flooded basement project easily, but common industry standards are a closely guarded secret.

I hope this changes soon. Trivial information should always be free.

Sep 23, 11 5:52 pm  · 
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snook_dude

Rusty,

Yup...this is the great failure of the internet....every one reads and believes....

Sep 23, 11 8:51 pm  · 
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snook_dude

humm....masters degree....top ivy school....and your struggling to find a job...sigh...do you know how to change light bulbs?

Sep 23, 11 8:54 pm  · 
 · 

@ jjr

i am academic who runs slightly interesting office in tokyo.  only started teaching in 2009.  have much more experience as professional than as academic, so if i am biased it is the other side. 

truth be told we are looking to hire part-time staff right now and don't care if they have experience or not, but definitely need some indication of ability to think on their own.  believing  they know it all because they have the internet as a resource would not be seen as a positive for us. ditto for books.  this is a profession of learning by doing, and no matter how good the binoculars are voyeurism doesn't work (peeping tom knows nothing about sex).

i do recall my first year on the job and all the mistakes i made as i learned the real profession of architecture.  i really see no way to learn any of that except by going through it - the safety net of a mentor who can show you where you are going wrong and which steps to avoid is really important.  some folks can do the whole thing without that advice of course.  don't think the internet is the real tipping point though, great as it is. 

the point of the above is that doing a first project for parents can be risky so better to not take it too personally.

Sep 23, 11 10:42 pm  · 
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Rusty!

jump,

Nothing beats real world experience. Agreed. And having mere access to information doesn't mean you understand what's in front of you. Yet, this profession is so incredibly complex, it's impossible to be an expert at everything. You need to build your own resource center that you can reference as needed. 

New generation can do this a lot easier than ever before. Yet our industry is reluctant to share. Spec work that I do intimidates the shit out of most of my clients. The text is littered with references to industry standards that one can not easily look up. Hell, collection of ASTM standards will set you back 10 grand. Local building code (in Canadia) is only publicly available for purchase. A shitty 1Mb PDF will set you back $80. I can't think of any other laws that are essentially kept secret from the public. But that's how our industry rolls. Each trip to municipal zoning office reveals another set of obscure  documents that supersede whatever document your design was originally based on. It's such an incredible time suck.

So, in a way, saying that "you had to be there man" is a bit of a protectionist copout. Something that took us over a decade to fully learn can indeed be understood in as little as a weeks time. And that hurts. But instead of taking an old-geezer stand on the issue, embrace the fact that whole other world of information is potentially available to you as well.

Nothing wrong with a fresh grad tackling a frigging basement project. Great way to get your feet wet (after the basement re-floods during the first light drizzle). 

 

Sep 24, 11 1:58 am  · 
 · 

the laws aren't kept secret, just cost money...?

i hear what you are saying rusty and i am pretty far from old-fashioned.  mild anarchy is totally cool for me as long as no one gets hurt. 

when it comes to construction, sure go ahead break a leg.  i still wouldn't be so quick to say a grad out of school knows enough to design a house on their own.  like everything it takes practice.  and it isn't about spec writing or availability of technical resources, its all about knowing what and when to do stuff.  talent takes practice too (isn't the rule 10 years?). best not to do that for your parents house unless bob venturi.  or else hire someone to guide you through it.

gotta go, my 11 year old daughter is designing our furniture for when we move and needs some help (you probably think i am kidding, but ain't).

Sep 24, 11 3:09 am  · 
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snook_dude

jump,

 

That little miss jump is amazing!

Sep 24, 11 10:02 am  · 
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elinor

awesome, jump!  way to give her a head start!!  she's going to have some portfolio when she decides to apply to schools, whatever she decides to study.

Sep 24, 11 10:33 am  · 
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awaiting_deletion

after 10 years i'm finally convinced you only become a good architect after 30 years of experience before you ask for the $30k as mentioned above for such specialized knowledge.

the fact that an architect in the US can even have input on this situation is quite amazing, most architects in the US make paper documentation and wouldn't know a leak if it was dripping on their heads.

why is the knowledge specialized...well how many on this site have stood in a basement and watched it flood, reviewed and drew drawings representing the situation, analyzed the situation and figured out the cause conceptually based on high school physics and not in the field. because any monkey with a hammer ( a contractor) can solve the problem in the field with the water dripping on their heads.

that's the point, it takes 30 years experience to fortell the future on a building theoreticallly without being in the field. 

 

the structure has stood for 100 years.  if you knew how they built typically 100 years ago you'd have a start on the knowledge.  you'd also have to know the history of the construction industry in the region, the predominant builders, the predominat corner cutting techniques...then show up and look at the field condition...then go home and realize it might be something silly like the way they laid brick or made mortar mix back in the day.  most monkeys with hammers wouldn't know this...granted there are plenty contractors who skipped college by acident and sound like the history channel when they speak.

 

ivy league or not education prepares you for little in this profession.  sure you can drop concept like acid, but can you understand 100 years of construction in one singular moment?

no drug for that.

 

 

 

Sep 25, 11 12:32 am  · 
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PsyArch

I acted as client representative for my parents. I was overlooked in the selection of the site, the Architect, the contractors. However it was my plans that were built after I had the Architect's (obviously 100% over-budget) plans priced by a Quantity Surveyor. Mine came in on the tenders within 5%.

The project was an enormous nightmare for various reasons and put a huge strain on family relations. We know each other better now, but I still choke every time I see the placement of radiators, placement of switches, cheap door handles, light fittings, and wall finishes all of which the Architect (side-stepped me and) got my parents to accept. They still think he's wonderful. I know he's a dick.

Now I have commissioned my recently-graduated (MArch) cousin to build a 15m2 studio of local brick in the garden of the above project. It's small enough that he can grasp the whole project, hopefully build it by hand, and get some real visceral experience. I'm delighted. We'll see how it pans out.

Sep 27, 11 9:39 am  · 
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jmanganelli

have you ever read, A Place of My Own: The Education of an Amateur Builder?

Sep 27, 11 12:25 pm  · 
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Rook Pawn Ending

No offense to you "blankblank" the original poster, but after hearing that you have a Master's Degree from an Ivy School and having 30 years experience in the field of Architecture myself, your family members did you a favor. And by that I mean you would likely have ended up with an experience similar to "Won and Done Williams" did, which as he reported was a complete disaster.

It is not that your heart is not in the right place, and your desire to help your family members and get a project under your belt was wrong. The main reason is that people in school, in particular Ivy Schools, are pumped full of theory which has virtually nothing to do with the actual practice of Architecture. Simple as that. It is rampant throughout the colleges.

When I went through my 5 years of school, it was the same way. The "genius" ..LOL... professors in college, never even talk about the reality of practice. It is simply too much fun designing and pontificating about theory, to bother with the nuts and bolts of putting a building project together from start to finish. Most in academia can't even do it themselves.

You will be fair better off to get a job in a solid, well regarded residential design firm for 5 years or so, get licensed, and then go out on your own if you want to do a good job for your clients and build a reputation.

My advice to you based on personal experience, is when you do get your first addition, or complete house, ask a seasoned Architect with 10 or 15 years behind him in residential work  to help you, even if he wants some money to help. It will make all the difference to your client and the end product which is something you can use for the next client.

The Architect I worked for helped me on my first house and even stamped it without asking for a dime. I never forgot him for that, and have done a few favors for him over the years because he gave me a start. A great guy!

Best of luck blankblank!

 

Dec 20, 11 7:41 pm  · 
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trace™

That's a sad story.  Not unique, as others are pointing out, which makes it even more sad. 

Someone can start/run a billion dollar company in their 20's, but apparently not design a house (both, clearly, require support of experts). 

Dec 21, 11 12:17 pm  · 
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x-jla

Venturi house?  If he listened to people who told him he had too little experiance to design a house he would never be where he is today. 

Dec 22, 11 1:51 pm  · 
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