I worked in Brunei Darussalam as a freelance Interior Designer-Contractor for 20 years. Last year I came home in the Philippines for good and started my design & build business here. My passion for designing homes was developed thru those years although I am not a licensed architect, a fine arts graduate, my career in Brunei was surrounded by Architects and Engineer friends whom I consult regarding rules, codes and ethics. I do architectural designs and interiors but I pass my work to my Architect consultants for corrections, seal, signing and submission.
Last year around November, a friend introduced me to his lady friend to help plan and design her existing 2-level apartment and extend to 4 levels. I explained the pros and cons and told the the clients she needs to have the structure inspected and reinforced so we took in an engineer. I sent the lady client thru email, a contract agreement regarding her engaging me to do the works on the extension in terms of upgrading the apartment's exterior appearance and do the space planning of the additional 2 levels with coordination to the engineer. Being a friend of a friend, our verbal agreement would be to charge her minimal fee only and not the standard professional fees stated on the UAP Architect's Code because I am not an Architect for one, and secondly, I am just partly helping out as a favor to my long time friend who introduced me. Our agreement was, once I hand her the design prelims and options I will collect 50% and once she is satisfied with the final design I will collect the balance. She never signed the contract and later on after I gave her the design prelims, she twisted our verbal agreement and said she never gave confirmation on the final design and will pay only if and when construction starts which I doubt will be after a few years. All my efforts and drawings which includes perspective drawings of the schemes for her visual aid will just go down the drain.
I have great respect for architects and I have no right making comments or consulting or even joining Archinect but my career revolves around architectural and interior designs. Can you fellow designers please advice me how I can collect. No signed contract but I have all the 4 design options, preliminary layouts, plans, elevations, M&E drawing as proof of my work. Sorry for the long explanation but please help me out.
Take it as a lesson learned, but in the future A, B, C: Always Be Closing, now matter who it is, get'em to sign that contract or else you got nothing. there are projects architects in up in litigation with even when the client does sign, (see donald trump architect)
Mar 21, 17 4:27 pm ·
·
Dencio
I should have done that right from the start when she engaged me. Sometimes I am too generous and trusting to the point of stupid with friend's friends.... thanks for the reminder
Mar 22, 17 8:12 am ·
·
Dencio
The client not signing the contract can work to my advantage if I fight it out with her in court says my veteran architect friend who signs my drawings. I could revise the contract agreement under his company and complying to UAP's code of ethics, I may be able to claim a lot more than the amount we initially agreed upon if things work out right eventually
. Backfire is the word.
Mar 22, 17 8:48 am ·
·
s=r*(theta)
UUHHH, good luck with that my friend, sounds like a witch hunt
Have you been paid for the preliminary work that was given to her? If so, stop work and walk away. If she shows up with the rest of the money and wants to move ahead, then do so. There's never any guarantee that a project gets built.
As far as I am concerned, the best projects don't get built (assuming you get paid for the work you completed). It will always live as you have envisioned it, and never cause you any liability issues.
Mar 21, 17 4:37 pm ·
·
Dencio
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, she did not sign the contract and I emailed it to her for signing because she is Hongkong based and now has started a business in Bataan. She seldom comes to our town. If she does, she wouldn't contact or see me avoiding payment for sure. She sent me a nasty email reply on my payment billing follow up stating I'm bullying her with my billing claim letter. I am now consulting with an attorney if there is any way I can get payment without the contract signed by her with only the drawing files, amendments and conversation message thread as my only proof I did the works as per her requests.
I have gotten used to it in my early years in Brunei after I designed for the royal family. It's a hit and miss game during those days not knowing which clients will respect and compensate me with my works. Most will just make excuses after I hand them the drawings and not pay. As an expat in a foreigner land there's not much I can do to get my pay.... even the embassy will just advice most expats to just simply go home and forget the bad experience. Eventually I have met good paying clients who loves my works and has become regular clients. But I am in my own country now and I swore to myself I am not getting fooled anymore. I just got careless with my good nature and trusting too much. I am not really after the payment, it's not that much, as a matter of fact... it is the disrespect for my profession and the way she cunningly twisted our agreement... even threatening to fight it out with a lawyer in court to prove she has no obligations. She got it all planned probably right from the start to save. I just want to prove she cannot get away with it if the law is in my favor even if the payment I am claiming all goes to an attorney. What a heartless, evil creature she turned out to be.
I'm detailing my experience hoping that I can help other newbie architects who may read my experience post... Thanks again guys and gals. I will share if there is a happy ending to my struggle. I always have faith above and also believe in Karma when all else fails. It's how I survived working as a freelance in my 22 years abroad.
Mar 22, 17 8:41 am ·
·
quizzical
"Most will just make excuses after I hand them the drawings and not pay."
Never, EVER, hand over drawings without first receiving a check. Would a car dealership let you drive away in a new car w/o first paying for it ?
If she doesn't want to pay you she probably won't. The legal route is risky and expensive. It's even riskier for you since you didn't get a signed agreement.
Chaulk it up as a lesson learned. All business owners deal with this at some point. As much as you'd like people to do the right thing, sometimes they just don't.
Get a retainer next time.
Mar 22, 17 8:46 am ·
·
Dencio
Well said bro. Like I said I don't mind if all the money I'm claiming all goes to the lawyer who will stand up with me in my struggle. Sometimes, at some point, somebody has to put a stop, or try to stop to this type of people's evil ways.
Everyone has stories about this and it is human nature to trust someone that a friends introduces to you. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Always have a contract. I'd stop having the lawyer look into a lawsuit/civil claim and have them work on a contract for you.
Mar 22, 17 11:52 am ·
·
s=r*(theta)
hahahaha!!! part 'C' of your comment
made my day :D
Rules may be different there, but where I am you can usually use emails or other written communication that show agreement to the terms/contract to hold them to the terms - so comb through your emails. If that is true there, sending the evidence of their agreement and a description of how you are going to use that legally may be enough to get them to pay. This letter is even better if you can get a lawyer to write it and send it. Cheaper than a full lawsuit and often effective.
But if they wont pay the only way to get them to is through legal channels which itself gets expensive. Small claims here is not expensive bu can be hard to collect even after a judement, but again I don't know the system there or how much is at stake. It sounds like they were out to get free work from the beginning though, and that is why they didn't sign.
Worth repeating, never start without a signed contract and deposit. Friend or no friend, take trust out of the equation and it won't get violated. OK to get burned once, just don't get burned twice.
Is this an all around thing for all clients or something. I got a real estate developer client who was all smiles and happiness with the project until I gave him a design fee. Once the fee was said he told me "Give me a week for revisions and I will get back with you" is this a normal thing or a excuss to never talk to me again. I was to do an animation, several renderings, an aerial of a site plan, with several still renderings, the design of a townhome with complete construction drawings, and several still renderings all done in 3d. what kind of fee should this fetch I though at least a couple thousand, the animation alone can run you into the thousand at 25 dollars a second.WTF
May 4, 17 4:10 pm ·
·
MyDream
You are probably right, but what did I do to get him to give me that message I was thinking more along the lines of pay me the initial fee so I can start working. He gave me a lot of things to get started I might just do the project and if he wants it he will have to pay for it and if not then I will just put it in the portfolio vault.
May 4, 17 4:42 pm ·
·
MyDream
O come on if I was too green that should have been out the window as soon as he seen the portfolio/website. I don't know if I am cut out for this stuff. I got another project where the GC had a SE and just wanted working drawings done. Drafters usually charge like $65, I got offered $40 an hour on an 8 week job that fizzled out. I charged the bastard 20 an hour just a measly 2k for two homes with full drafting services and free renderings haven't heard from him either two projects down the drain I feel like shit. I meet some more contractors who seem to like me, but I doubt they turn out any different. :(. Paul Williams would like at me in shame.
May 4, 17 4:52 pm ·
·
JonathanLivingston
My dream, Maybe you should try easing them into the process better. start small. one drawing X hrs and if you like that we will sign a new contract for the next phase. Limit your scope to smaller chunks. It will be easier for you and your client to handle and have exits along the way.
May 4, 17 7:51 pm ·
·
Non Sequitur
2k for two houses? Ha... we're charging that just to issue a permit letter to change door hardware... to one single door.
May 5, 17 12:01 am ·
·
MyDream
Thank you both for the response. Let's get one thing straight I cannot price correctly for work. I am new though, my prices should not be the same as a licensed professional who has been in the game for x amount of years. Jon, yes I threw everything at them and the kitchen sink. I only did that because he asked for it. He asked for an animation a townhome design, and a 3d modeled site plan, two site plans actually. It seems I have found something I am ill prepared for...pricing...
Tell them that you will have to report it to the building official where they plan on implementing the design and that they won't be able to get permits unless paid. Lol maybe they will believe you? Worth a shot? Tough lesson
Client refuse to pay design fee
I worked in Brunei Darussalam as a freelance Interior Designer-Contractor for 20 years. Last year I came home in the Philippines for good and started my design & build business here. My passion for designing homes was developed thru those years although I am not a licensed architect, a fine arts graduate, my career in Brunei was surrounded by Architects and Engineer friends whom I consult regarding rules, codes and ethics. I do architectural designs and interiors but I pass my work to my Architect consultants for corrections, seal, signing and submission.
Last year around November, a friend introduced me to his lady friend to help plan and design her existing 2-level apartment and extend to 4 levels. I explained the pros and cons and told the the clients she needs to have the structure inspected and reinforced so we took in an engineer. I sent the lady client thru email, a contract agreement regarding her engaging me to do the works on the extension in terms of upgrading the apartment's exterior appearance and do the space planning of the additional 2 levels with coordination to the engineer. Being a friend of a friend, our verbal agreement would be to charge her minimal fee only and not the standard professional fees stated on the UAP Architect's Code because I am not an Architect for one, and secondly, I am just partly helping out as a favor to my long time friend who introduced me. Our agreement was, once I hand her the design prelims and options I will collect 50% and once she is satisfied with the final design I will collect the balance. She never signed the contract and later on after I gave her the design prelims, she twisted our verbal agreement and said she never gave confirmation on the final design and will pay only if and when construction starts which I doubt will be after a few years. All my efforts and drawings which includes perspective drawings of the schemes for her visual aid will just go down the drain.
I have great respect for architects and I have no right making comments or consulting or even joining Archinect but my career revolves around architectural and interior designs. Can you fellow designers please advice me how I can collect. No signed contract but I have all the 4 design options, preliminary layouts, plans, elevations, M&E drawing as proof of my work. Sorry for the long explanation but please help me out.
Take it as a lesson learned, but in the future A, B, C: Always Be Closing, now matter who it is, get'em to sign that contract or else you got nothing. there are projects architects in up in litigation with even when the client does sign, (see donald trump architect)
I should have done that right from the start when she engaged me. Sometimes I am too generous and trusting to the point of stupid with friend's friends.... thanks for the reminder
The client not signing the contract can work to my advantage if I fight it out with her in court says my veteran architect friend who signs my drawings. I could revise the contract agreement under his company and complying to UAP's code of ethics, I may be able to claim a lot more than the amount we initially agreed upon if things work out right eventually
. Backfire is the word.
UUHHH, good luck with that my friend, sounds like a witch hunt
Have you been paid for the preliminary work that was given to her? If so, stop work and walk away. If she shows up with the rest of the money and wants to move ahead, then do so. There's never any guarantee that a project gets built.
As far as I am concerned, the best projects don't get built (assuming you get paid for the work you completed). It will always live as you have envisioned it, and never cause you any liability issues.
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, she did not sign the contract and I emailed it to her for signing because she is Hongkong based and now has started a business in Bataan. She seldom comes to our town. If she does, she wouldn't contact or see me avoiding payment for sure. She sent me a nasty email reply on my payment billing follow up stating I'm bullying her with my billing claim letter. I am now consulting with an attorney if there is any way I can get payment without the contract signed by her with only the drawing files, amendments and conversation message thread as my only proof I did the works as per her requests.
∆amen to that, brother
I have gotten used to it in my early years in Brunei after I designed for the royal family. It's a hit and miss game during those days not knowing which clients will respect and compensate me with my works. Most will just make excuses after I hand them the drawings and not pay. As an expat in a foreigner land there's not much I can do to get my pay.... even the embassy will just advice most expats to just simply go home and forget the bad experience. Eventually I have met good paying clients who loves my works and has become regular clients. But I am in my own country now and I swore to myself I am not getting fooled anymore. I just got careless with my good nature and trusting too much. I am not really after the payment, it's not that much, as a matter of fact... it is the disrespect for my profession and the way she cunningly twisted our agreement... even threatening to fight it out with a lawyer in court to prove she has no obligations. She got it all planned probably right from the start to save. I just want to prove she cannot get away with it if the law is in my favor even if the payment I am claiming all goes to an attorney. What a heartless, evil creature she turned out to be.
I'm detailing my experience hoping that I can help other newbie architects who may read my experience post... Thanks again guys and gals. I will share if there is a happy ending to my struggle. I always have faith above and also believe in Karma when all else fails. It's how I survived working as a freelance in my 22 years abroad.
"Most will just make excuses after I hand them the drawings and not pay."
Never, EVER, hand over drawings without first receiving a check. Would a car dealership let you drive away in a new car w/o first paying for it ?
Sorry - duplicate post
If she doesn't want to pay you she probably won't. The legal route is risky and expensive. It's even riskier for you since you didn't get a signed agreement.
Chaulk it up as a lesson learned. All business owners deal with this at some point. As much as you'd like people to do the right thing, sometimes they just don't.
Get a retainer next time.
Well said bro. Like I said I don't mind if all the money I'm claiming all goes to the lawyer who will stand up with me in my struggle. Sometimes, at some point, somebody has to put a stop, or try to stop to this type of people's evil ways.
Take it as a lessson learned. Watch the video 'Fuck You. Pay me.' https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1
Have your friend who introduced you her call her out
^Nah. If you have to resort to that, you've already lost the battle.
You were dumb, so you have to pay your dumb tax. Almost all of us have been there, so don't feel lonely.
Everyone has stories about this and it is human nature to trust someone that a friends introduces to you. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Always have a contract. I'd stop having the lawyer look into a lawsuit/civil claim and have them work on a contract for you.
hahahaha!!! part 'C' of your comment made my day :D
I always aim to please.
Rules may be different there, but where I am you can usually use emails or other written communication that show agreement to the terms/contract to hold them to the terms - so comb through your emails. If that is true there, sending the evidence of their agreement and a description of how you are going to use that legally may be enough to get them to pay. This letter is even better if you can get a lawyer to write it and send it. Cheaper than a full lawsuit and often effective.
But if they wont pay the only way to get them to is through legal channels which itself gets expensive. Small claims here is not expensive bu can be hard to collect even after a judement, but again I don't know the system there or how much is at stake. It sounds like they were out to get free work from the beginning though, and that is why they didn't sign.
Worth repeating, never start without a signed contract and deposit. Friend or no friend, take trust out of the equation and it won't get violated. OK to get burned once, just don't get burned twice.
https://goo.gl/images/N2R2vJ
With an Italian name like Dencio you are worried about getting paid? Send them a Frank Sinatra CD with your invoice.
Or, sneak into their house in the middle of the night and leave the head of their prized thoroughbred in their bed. Worked for the Godfather.
A dead fish delivered to the house will also work.
Is this an all around thing for all clients or something. I got a real estate developer client who was all smiles and happiness with the project until I gave him a design fee. Once the fee was said he told me "Give me a week for revisions and I will get back with you" is this a normal thing or a excuss to never talk to me again. I was to do an animation, several renderings, an aerial of a site plan, with several still renderings, the design of a townhome with complete construction drawings, and several still renderings all done in 3d. what kind of fee should this fetch I though at least a couple thousand, the animation alone can run you into the thousand at 25 dollars a second.WTF
You are probably right, but what did I do to get him to give me that message I was thinking more along the lines of pay me the initial fee so I can start working. He gave me a lot of things to get started I might just do the project and if he wants it he will have to pay for it and if not then I will just put it in the portfolio vault.
O come on if I was too green that should have been out the window as soon as he seen the portfolio/website. I don't know if I am cut out for this stuff. I got another project where the GC had a SE and just wanted working drawings done. Drafters usually charge like $65, I got offered $40 an hour on an 8 week job that fizzled out. I charged the bastard 20 an hour just a measly 2k for two homes with full drafting services and free renderings haven't heard from him either two projects down the drain I feel like shit. I meet some more contractors who seem to like me, but I doubt they turn out any different. :(. Paul Williams would like at me in shame.
My dream, Maybe you should try easing them into the process better. start small. one drawing X hrs and if you like that we will sign a new contract for the next phase. Limit your scope to smaller chunks. It will be easier for you and your client to handle and have exits along the way.
2k for two houses? Ha... we're charging that just to issue a permit letter to change door hardware... to one single door.
Thank you both for the response. Let's get one thing straight I cannot price correctly for work. I am new though, my prices should not be the same as a licensed professional who has been in the game for x amount of years. Jon, yes I threw everything at them and the kitchen sink. I only did that because he asked for it. He asked for an animation a townhome design, and a 3d modeled site plan, two site plans actually. It seems I have found something I am ill prepared for...pricing...
For reference, see Jaffe's First and Second Laws.
Apparently, and to the dismay of some no doubt.
Welcome back!
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