i work in a small 4 person firm that does pretty large scale projects. The pay is good and there is overtime. The projects are set up with the owner acting as the project architect for every project and there are 4 drafter/project managers working on projects separately. There is no control over scheduling and the schedules are usually kept secret and deadlines aren't shared until a few days prior. I noticed that my boss seemed to like this skeleton staff set up because we work so much faster stressed out. But two problems, you start to make a lot of mistakes working at 110% and are fully accountable for them even tho there is no back checking of drawings there just isn't time, also I get mad at missed weekends and overtime. Since I noticed that working the weekend to get ahead of a project meant you'd just be taken off of it to work on something else until that project reached crisis mode again, I started to not come in early, take my full lunch and peace out after an hour of overtime so my boss would still see that I worked late ( I don't think he notices when you come in early and work through lunch) However, the deadlines still don't really move and now it just seems like I'm missing deadlines. I do still offer to work weekends and offered this last weekend, was told no but then on Monday was told for the first time my project was being submitted Wednesday so I needed to do 2 16 hour days to meet the deadline. Obviously in this situation I can't just go home. I'm not quitting because A) I've worked in 4 firms of all sizes and from stories from other coworkers it's not any better anywhere else, mega firms might be a little bit better but the amount of surprise layoffs that happen every other month cancels out the benefit of leaving at 5 more often. B) I'm hoping to finish my IDP and a second degree this next year and say goodbye to working in arch firms forever. Until then any ideas on approaching my boss about this without getting fired?
i'm not sure it's all that common for people to be working 16 hour days. there isn't really any reason or incentive to do that unless you have a real ownership stake.
no matter what your boss says, it's not your responsibility and you're not accountable for the decisions you're not allowed to influence, such as scheduling. if you fuck up, you might lose a shitty job. the boss loses his (or her) business. if the boss wants to fire you, (s)he can have 3 people turning the firm's profit instead of 4, and you can let them work 30 hour days. no sweat off your back.
perhaps the way to address the problem is to be involved in the decision making, so you can influence schedules and other project parameters that you think aren't being adequately managed. ask for a promotion that gives you control instead of just money.
sometimes getting fired isn't necessarily the worse option compared to not getting fired. not saying it's better, but that it's probably close.
I'd like to ask for a drafter, I mean it will save him money instead of paying me overtime but I feel like I'll probably just get more work then. We're always turning down work actually.
Sounds like a boss I (briefly) worked for last year. Withholding critical information from the project team was one of several petty ways he'd assert his power over the staff. I moved on to a much better firm after two months and never regretted it for a second.
Your coworkers who told you all firms operate that way are either lying to you or they don't know any better. Find a better employer.
We at least shared time-budgets for projects based on project fees. If you could get access to this information, this could be the basis for real conversation, particularly if the project fee represents 80 hours worth of work and you've been given a week to do it.
Coupled with this is an understanding of exempt worker status. Likely you are exempt despite how you are paid.
Sorry to hear that, sounds like your boss keeps the firm understaffed on purpose. I work on a 4 person firm too, but we do only high end residential, emphasis on high end. no overtime, very laid back, but no benefits. I haven't worked after 5 or weekends in a while.
This is a good time for me to point to a recent blog post (disclosure: by my friend at L2 Design) on Finding A Mentor. It's important to note that a mentor is NOT someone at your place of employment (in fact the IDP rules used to require that you had someone outside of your firm as a mentor). A mentor is someone who can hear your career concerns and not be swayed in their answer by worrying whether you will quit on them or ask for a raise or something.
I don't believe that ALL other firms are all like this. It's terrible practice to not share the project schedule with your staff working on it. That leads to employee turnover.
Well I really would prefer not to quit because more specifically what I've run into is at the small firms if they actually treat you well they pay you as much as a grocery clerk and at the big firms you are racing a against an impossible budget, so there is unspoken requirement of working overtime (free salaried work) to meet the budget or your PM will pressure you to put in vacation hours when you were actually working if you went over the allotted time and didn't work the free secret after hours. I'd like to have a conversation here at my current job where I'm paid well and my overtime isn't questioned.
Life's too short to work for people like this. Find something better. As others have stated ... not all firms are run this way.
For all the unspoken rules of the profession ... these are just stupid and we have to stop abiding by them or it will never get better. Those higher ups in whatever firm will never start to understand the actual time it takes to do a project if everyone is fudging their timesheet to make it look right.
Say a project is budgeted for 500 hours and it takes you 540 hours to do the work. When you fudge the timesheet and all they ever see is 500 hours put toward it, they think you can do it again. So on the next project they figure for the same amount of hours, but then the next project is a little tighter on fee ... so they tell you to do it in 480 hours so they can keep the same profit margin. It still takes you 540 hours, but your giving up more and more of your time for free.
Record your time,all your time, accurately. If there is a problem with how much time you are spending on a project, either you aren't working effectively or efficiently, or they aren't giving you enough time to complete it ... or both. Either way, it needs to be fixed. Pretending it doesn't happen so it looks good on paper doesn't fix the problem.
If you are signing a time sheet, or even handing one in unsigned, it should be accurate. Let them worry about the repercussions. Keep a copy for your records.
if you like the projects you are working on, stay.
If you are young and early in your career, now is the time to do it. you've got your whole life to sacrifice interesting and good work for normal hours and a life outside of work.
If the work isn't good though, get the hell out of there.
You work in a shithole, they don't respect you and you shouldn't respect them.
Branch out and look for a job elsewhere, mega firms aren't any better and sometimes worst depending on where, I know too many people working for places like Fosters, Zaha, BIG, SANAA, Farrells and any other company you can think of. My old job I had access to over 6000 different firms and their info, and it isn't any better in a lot of architecture firms but you get really good ones that I wouldn't mind working for.
If you really are thinking of quitting I find surveying firms and construction firms seem to respect employee life balance better, I don't know what it is about architecture firms but they seem to take the human factor out of it.
If someone else blows the whistle and a state agency goes go back through everybody's time sheets and yours are falsified low, guess what, you get nada when it is resolved.
I was working at one hard core office(long hours and general dysfunction) a year ago - we were working 8am to 10pm 6 days a week, one night, I went home at 10pm, everyone else was there until 2am - the following day, I was told to pack my tools. _ yeaj its tough, but not as hard as living out of your savings - it's better to just gut it out .
The best place to work is BIG - we work hard and everyone is happy. Money isn't everything, think of all of the good you are doing for the world. People who can only think of money should have gone to business school. I don't know the exact salaries at BIG but when I see people I know that work there they seem the happiest office ever.
^ Compare that to ARP1's second post on the forums:
"The think that bothers me is I know many of my class mates that worked or are working at BIG and get paid shit, work very long hours, get crappy assignments, and so on. While I understand doing this at a small firm where there is little money, BIG is raking in the dough and sending it back to Denmark. Don't get me wrong - it is their responsibility for working there, but come on Bjarke, at least pay fast food wages... "
Looks like someone got a job at BIG and drank the koolaid ... OH YEAH!
you could frame a conversation with the boss not as ' i'm being left out and told to work overtime without any notice', but more rather like 'i'd like to develop professionally and gain more exposure to the project management side of things.'. maybe offer the practical suggestion of being cc'd on the project correspondence. then you will understand the expectations and be able to softly push back when the boss asks for more than required.
If you are making a difference - then that's the payoff and your career can only benefit from the sacrifice(it looks good on a resume and portfolio) - provided you don't ruin your health in the process.
Don't be constantly available. You are an adult with a life of your own. You are not contracted to be there at all hours.
Tell the boss you have class on T & Th eve and volunteer events on MWF evenings. Let him know you're happy to work extra as necessary but you need advance notice to make it happen. Give him a reason to believe he needs to schedule with you in order to get your time.
You will either get more notice, or less overtime, or fired...but you'll find out how much of a good person your boss actually is. And you will be less stressed about it.
Are they intentionally leaving you out of scheduling or are they themselves not scheduling? I've been at both types. The other question is if they're budgeting, if it is a reasonable amount of work. People's work rates can greatly differ; and now being on the other side (managing staff), it can be very frustrating until a manager gets a sense of the pace a person works at. There should not be expectation for 85hr work weeks, but on the other hand I've run across a fair number of entry level staff that took years before their production was worth their salary on a 35~40 hr work week (read: they would be underpaid and OT would be expected).
At one review, I suggested that I was not as efficient as possible in terms of produced work (in this case CD including drawings and specs), but part of the slowdown was the time I would spend reviewing the work and coordinating various aspects with a level of deliberateness. I was told my efficiency was great, and to take more time to continue assisting minimizing mistakes.
One suggestion might be to sit down with the owner/boss and have a frank discussion about a strategy to make yourself the best contributor you can be: a healthy, happy, rested person might be the best, most efficient employee. Suggest that being given the responsibility to schedule your hours would lead to better and on-time deliverables. In my experience overworked offices had a pretty high illness absence - if you feel this conversation might be helped, maybe strategically taking sick days after setting it might help (some side bar comments on being worn out and feeling like you're coming down with something and not being able to fight it off...).
As previous posters mentioned, it's not always the worst thing to get laid off / fired. Do understand that many firms have a black list of firms not to hire staff out of, because the overworking is known (they don't want to hire a recovery case).
through various consulting gigs and working with many firms what I have found is that people with 0-5 years experience with regard to productive activity in many cases SUCK. And yes met many 15-20 years experience who get paid what they are worth - not much. I don't know if thats you. Maybe you just can't produce. Firms often call me because they can give it to staff and wait a week and pay 40 hours or give it to Olaf and get it in 8 hours and possibly the next day (although lately I am far far behind).........the only way to be certain if thats the case your boss goes "don't worry about it,I will take care of it." or literally sits down in front of the Computer and in a matter of 5 minutes does what was taking you 2 hours while rambling about why you are taking so long (had that happen to me in my 1st year)..........................Xenakis sounds like he just took the "i don't know shit and need to work long hours" as fact and contiues to work long hours. at some point you should actually get good at what you do................now if your boss can't produce as you do and just constantly pushes things without understanding what it takes then its quite possible they have no clue what they are doing. i have worked wih many designers who are not licensed in NYC and time and time again they yell and scream they need something tomorrow because they promised the client it already because they actually have never had a real building architect/engineer review or filed a job and point blank have NO FUCKING CLUE..................so StarArchitect depensing on what you are dealing with -1) maybe you just don't have what it takes to meet deadlines or 2) you have a clueless boss, you could pony up and tell them "look I can get this done on time and make you mucho cash if you let me manag this" 3) fuck it who cares, they are dimwitred, 4) moonlight with other firms to get a feel for your next move
Unrealistic deadlines are about power and profit. See how high you jump and how much more can I can squeeze out. There are many more where you came from. If you can leave that culture, do so. If you can't, grin and bear it, but know it's bullshit.
I may not be a hot shoe like you - but I do know my stuff - I work the long hours because the whole team is here - after I get my assigned tasks done, there is is plenty more - revisions , revisions and whole butt load of redlines, and sheet list x_check. cant leave at 5pm when the team plans to stay until 10pm - l ast time i did that, I got fired. -
I worked for a firm that liked to set deadlines like July 5 and December 26.
We were working on a multi-million commercial office building for a high profile client in NYC. The final design presentation for client approval was set for July 5th, which fell on a Monday that year. The presentation had to be PERFECT. Because of the holiday, the building had no air conditioning. We sweated the whole long weekend and began pinning up in the large conference room at 7:00 am on Monday the 5th. What we didn't know is our jet-setter client had flown to Paris for the weekend - on the Concorde, of course. At 9 am the phone rang - from Paris. It was the client's wife:
"Paris is so lovely we decided to stay another day. Let's have the presentation some other time"
So it was submitted on time, no back check of the documents so I'll probably get yelled at in a few weeks, anyway, Olaf, I'm pretty fast, you could probably beat me but I regularly help others and strategize the most efficient means of setting up different types of projects, even if it means using the great evil...CAD lol, Xenakis why do you still do it? Seems like you've struggled a lot. I'm not on a team so my push back of not staying later than 7 earlier actually worked because other office people had to be put on it, but I can totally understand the peer pressure of not leaving before others, is there a way you can quit and find another firm, your situation sounds way worse than mine, that seems rare, I work in more of a Draftertect scenario which seems to have better work life balance than design places, do you work in a design firm?
Some days I even leave at 4:30 if I only took a half hour for lunch. I still think we might be anomalous. But I have a good job, I like what I do, I like the firm I work for and the work we do, and I tend to think I have decent job security.
^That's pretty much how I roll here too. Just this morning I decided to make two surprise site visits, just because. I'll be heading home early as well tonight.
Why? It really is my calling - things are better now - after 7 years - I choose my own battles - I work at a firm that is more reasonable where there is a work/life balance and most go home after 6pm - if I work late and on weekends(I am the only one who does), its my choice - before, I just had to roll with the punches. - Sure I had to work in a lot of sweat shops -
Everyday Intern, Non Sequitur - I'd say a lot of people have 9-6ish hours, in most places after I graduated from 'entry level' status I could be flexible in my hours as long as the work got done (bosses always wanted me to be there when they were there 8-5 or 9-6). Those people are probably less likely to be on here... you know, having other stuff to do. Looking back on big name design firms jobs I had, I felt like most of us chose to stick around and do more (better renderings/diagrams/sketches just to improve skills and push each other much like in school), it was fun while it was fun, then I moved on.
That experience does help in knowing how fast I can get something done if needed - but I choose to work at a reasonable pace most of the time.
If you're good at what you do and are competent at everything else, it's pretty easy tohit six-figures in 7~10yrs after a grad degree is reasonable in major cities (assuming you're looking for the higher pay during job searches). It's not a bad pay rate, even though loan payback is a pain.
starchitect - based on that propose structural changes to make your boss money with a backup plan. i.e. resumes out and interviews. and in your interviews tell them how you think you could help with managment and your issues with current employment.........Xenakis I hope you are at least getting paid for it well.
You are not a "project manager" if you are not appraised of and managing the fee and schedule, you are a drafter. I find it appalling that a firm can be managed with such a lack of transparency. You are being exploited severely for the profit of your employer. Ask for more transparency and responsibility or leave.
Olaf, submitted on time, got some help from a coworker so pushing back worked a little bit but now that coworker acts like I screwed up instead of realizing it was management. Absolutely no time to back check, supposedly we will back check it before Bid but what will really happen is we won't and then all the mistakes will be my fault. BUT talked to my boss about hiring an actual drafter with an AS not an intern from a university and he was open. I'll keep pushing and if he just keeps kicking the can down the road I'll offer to hire someone through Odesk like I used to for my rendering business.
Pushing back on unrealistic deadlines without getting fired
i work in a small 4 person firm that does pretty large scale projects. The pay is good and there is overtime. The projects are set up with the owner acting as the project architect for every project and there are 4 drafter/project managers working on projects separately. There is no control over scheduling and the schedules are usually kept secret and deadlines aren't shared until a few days prior. I noticed that my boss seemed to like this skeleton staff set up because we work so much faster stressed out. But two problems, you start to make a lot of mistakes working at 110% and are fully accountable for them even tho there is no back checking of drawings there just isn't time, also I get mad at missed weekends and overtime. Since I noticed that working the weekend to get ahead of a project meant you'd just be taken off of it to work on something else until that project reached crisis mode again, I started to not come in early, take my full lunch and peace out after an hour of overtime so my boss would still see that I worked late ( I don't think he notices when you come in early and work through lunch) However, the deadlines still don't really move and now it just seems like I'm missing deadlines. I do still offer to work weekends and offered this last weekend, was told no but then on Monday was told for the first time my project was being submitted Wednesday so I needed to do 2 16 hour days to meet the deadline. Obviously in this situation I can't just go home. I'm not quitting because A) I've worked in 4 firms of all sizes and from stories from other coworkers it's not any better anywhere else, mega firms might be a little bit better but the amount of surprise layoffs that happen every other month cancels out the benefit of leaving at 5 more often. B) I'm hoping to finish my IDP and a second degree this next year and say goodbye to working in arch firms forever. Until then any ideas on approaching my boss about this without getting fired?
quit.
there's no honor in being someone's bitch.
i'm not sure it's all that common for people to be working 16 hour days. there isn't really any reason or incentive to do that unless you have a real ownership stake.
no matter what your boss says, it's not your responsibility and you're not accountable for the decisions you're not allowed to influence, such as scheduling. if you fuck up, you might lose a shitty job. the boss loses his (or her) business. if the boss wants to fire you, (s)he can have 3 people turning the firm's profit instead of 4, and you can let them work 30 hour days. no sweat off your back.
perhaps the way to address the problem is to be involved in the decision making, so you can influence schedules and other project parameters that you think aren't being adequately managed. ask for a promotion that gives you control instead of just money.
sometimes getting fired isn't necessarily the worse option compared to not getting fired. not saying it's better, but that it's probably close.
I'd like to ask for a drafter, I mean it will save him money instead of paying me overtime but I feel like I'll probably just get more work then. We're always turning down work actually.
Sounds like a boss I (briefly) worked for last year. Withholding critical information from the project team was one of several petty ways he'd assert his power over the staff. I moved on to a much better firm after two months and never regretted it for a second.
Your coworkers who told you all firms operate that way are either lying to you or they don't know any better. Find a better employer.
We at least shared time-budgets for projects based on project fees. If you could get access to this information, this could be the basis for real conversation, particularly if the project fee represents 80 hours worth of work and you've been given a week to do it.
Coupled with this is an understanding of exempt worker status. Likely you are exempt despite how you are paid.
Sorry to hear that, sounds like your boss keeps the firm understaffed on purpose. I work on a 4 person firm too, but we do only high end residential, emphasis on high end. no overtime, very laid back, but no benefits. I haven't worked after 5 or weekends in a while.
This is a good time for me to point to a recent blog post (disclosure: by my friend at L2 Design) on Finding A Mentor. It's important to note that a mentor is NOT someone at your place of employment (in fact the IDP rules used to require that you had someone outside of your firm as a mentor). A mentor is someone who can hear your career concerns and not be swayed in their answer by worrying whether you will quit on them or ask for a raise or something.
I don't believe that ALL other firms are all like this. It's terrible practice to not share the project schedule with your staff working on it. That leads to employee turnover.
Well I really would prefer not to quit because more specifically what I've run into is at the small firms if they actually treat you well they pay you as much as a grocery clerk and at the big firms you are racing a against an impossible budget, so there is unspoken requirement of working overtime (free salaried work) to meet the budget or your PM will pressure you to put in vacation hours when you were actually working if you went over the allotted time and didn't work the free secret after hours. I'd like to have a conversation here at my current job where I'm paid well and my overtime isn't questioned.
Plus my boss isn't an evil person he just loves to work, I'd say he usually is here 5am-630pm every day.
StarchitectAlpha
All those unspoken rules of the profession - salaried - working "OT" so as not to cut into fee
we gotta do what we gotta do - comes with the game
"The pay is good and there is overtime" Define "good" - it depends all on that, if you like your work...
Life's too short to work for people like this. Find something better. As others have stated ... not all firms are run this way.
For all the unspoken rules of the profession ... these are just stupid and we have to stop abiding by them or it will never get better. Those higher ups in whatever firm will never start to understand the actual time it takes to do a project if everyone is fudging their timesheet to make it look right.
Say a project is budgeted for 500 hours and it takes you 540 hours to do the work. When you fudge the timesheet and all they ever see is 500 hours put toward it, they think you can do it again. So on the next project they figure for the same amount of hours, but then the next project is a little tighter on fee ... so they tell you to do it in 480 hours so they can keep the same profit margin. It still takes you 540 hours, but your giving up more and more of your time for free.
Record your time, all your time, accurately. If there is a problem with how much time you are spending on a project, either you aren't working effectively or efficiently, or they aren't giving you enough time to complete it ... or both. Either way, it needs to be fixed. Pretending it doesn't happen so it looks good on paper doesn't fix the problem.
If you are signing a time sheet, or even handing one in unsigned, it should be accurate. Let them worry about the repercussions. Keep a copy for your records.
Work slowly and carefully and start looking for another job. If you're paid overtime rack up the hours. If not, fuck 'em.
if you like the projects you are working on, stay.
If you are young and early in your career, now is the time to do it. you've got your whole life to sacrifice interesting and good work for normal hours and a life outside of work.
If the work isn't good though, get the hell out of there.
..
You work in a shithole, they don't respect you and you shouldn't respect them.
Branch out and look for a job elsewhere, mega firms aren't any better and sometimes worst depending on where, I know too many people working for places like Fosters, Zaha, BIG, SANAA, Farrells and any other company you can think of. My old job I had access to over 6000 different firms and their info, and it isn't any better in a lot of architecture firms but you get really good ones that I wouldn't mind working for.
If you really are thinking of quitting I find surveying firms and construction firms seem to respect employee life balance better, I don't know what it is about architecture firms but they seem to take the human factor out of it.
If someone else blows the whistle and a state agency goes go back through everybody's time sheets and yours are falsified low, guess what, you get nada when it is resolved.
archiwutm8 yeah I'm out, tis a silly career, a great hobby, not a career.
I was working at one hard core office(long hours and general dysfunction) a year ago - we were working 8am to 10pm 6 days a week, one night, I went home at 10pm, everyone else was there until 2am - the following day, I was told to pack my tools. _ yeaj its tough, but not as hard as living out of your savings - it's better to just gut it out .
If you're working those hours, you're not building your network.
If you're not building your network, you're fucked.
If you get fired without a network, you're double fucked.
^ what null said.
The best place to work is BIG - we work hard and everyone is happy. Money isn't everything, think of all of the good you are doing for the world. People who can only think of money should have gone to business school. I don't know the exact salaries at BIG but when I see people I know that work there they seem the happiest office ever.
^ Compare that to ARP1's second post on the forums:
"The think that bothers me is I know many of my class mates that worked or are working at BIG and get paid shit, work very long hours, get crappy assignments, and so on. While I understand doing this at a small firm where there is little money, BIG is raking in the dough and sending it back to Denmark. Don't get me wrong - it is their responsibility for working there, but come on Bjarke, at least pay fast food wages... "
Looks like someone got a job at BIG and drank the koolaid ... OH YEAH!
ARP1 is really Bjarke sonicing himself on these boards.
you could frame a conversation with the boss not as ' i'm being left out and told to work overtime without any notice', but more rather like 'i'd like to develop professionally and gain more exposure to the project management side of things.'. maybe offer the practical suggestion of being cc'd on the project correspondence. then you will understand the expectations and be able to softly push back when the boss asks for more than required.
ARP1
If you are making a difference - then that's the payoff and your career can only benefit from the sacrifice(it looks good on a resume and portfolio) - provided you don't ruin your health in the process.
Don't be constantly available. You are an adult with a life of your own. You are not contracted to be there at all hours.
Tell the boss you have class on T & Th eve and volunteer events on MWF evenings. Let him know you're happy to work extra as necessary but you need advance notice to make it happen. Give him a reason to believe he needs to schedule with you in order to get your time.
You will either get more notice, or less overtime, or fired...but you'll find out how much of a good person your boss actually is. And you will be less stressed about it.
Are they intentionally leaving you out of scheduling or are they themselves not scheduling? I've been at both types. The other question is if they're budgeting, if it is a reasonable amount of work. People's work rates can greatly differ; and now being on the other side (managing staff), it can be very frustrating until a manager gets a sense of the pace a person works at. There should not be expectation for 85hr work weeks, but on the other hand I've run across a fair number of entry level staff that took years before their production was worth their salary on a 35~40 hr work week (read: they would be underpaid and OT would be expected).
At one review, I suggested that I was not as efficient as possible in terms of produced work (in this case CD including drawings and specs), but part of the slowdown was the time I would spend reviewing the work and coordinating various aspects with a level of deliberateness. I was told my efficiency was great, and to take more time to continue assisting minimizing mistakes.
One suggestion might be to sit down with the owner/boss and have a frank discussion about a strategy to make yourself the best contributor you can be: a healthy, happy, rested person might be the best, most efficient employee. Suggest that being given the responsibility to schedule your hours would lead to better and on-time deliverables. In my experience overworked offices had a pretty high illness absence - if you feel this conversation might be helped, maybe strategically taking sick days after setting it might help (some side bar comments on being worn out and feeling like you're coming down with something and not being able to fight it off...).
As previous posters mentioned, it's not always the worst thing to get laid off / fired. Do understand that many firms have a black list of firms not to hire staff out of, because the overworking is known (they don't want to hire a recovery case).
through various consulting gigs and working with many firms what I have found is that people with 0-5 years experience with regard to productive activity in many cases SUCK. And yes met many 15-20 years experience who get paid what they are worth - not much. I don't know if thats you. Maybe you just can't produce. Firms often call me because they can give it to staff and wait a week and pay 40 hours or give it to Olaf and get it in 8 hours and possibly the next day (although lately I am far far behind).........the only way to be certain if thats the case your boss goes "don't worry about it,I will take care of it." or literally sits down in front of the Computer and in a matter of 5 minutes does what was taking you 2 hours while rambling about why you are taking so long (had that happen to me in my 1st year)..........................Xenakis sounds like he just took the "i don't know shit and need to work long hours" as fact and contiues to work long hours. at some point you should actually get good at what you do................now if your boss can't produce as you do and just constantly pushes things without understanding what it takes then its quite possible they have no clue what they are doing. i have worked wih many designers who are not licensed in NYC and time and time again they yell and scream they need something tomorrow because they promised the client it already because they actually have never had a real building architect/engineer review or filed a job and point blank have NO FUCKING CLUE..................so StarArchitect depensing on what you are dealing with -1) maybe you just don't have what it takes to meet deadlines or 2) you have a clueless boss, you could pony up and tell them "look I can get this done on time and make you mucho cash if you let me manag this" 3) fuck it who cares, they are dimwitred, 4) moonlight with other firms to get a feel for your next move
Unrealistic deadlines are about power and profit. See how high you jump and how much more can I can squeeze out. There are many more where you came from. If you can leave that culture, do so. If you can't, grin and bear it, but know it's bullshit.
Olaf Design Ninja_
I may not be a hot shoe like you - but I do know my stuff - I work the long hours because the whole team is here - after I get my assigned tasks done, there is is plenty more - revisions , revisions and whole butt load of redlines, and sheet list x_check. cant leave at 5pm when the team plans to stay until 10pm - l ast time i did that, I got fired. -
I worked for a firm that liked to set deadlines like July 5 and December 26.
We were working on a multi-million commercial office building for a high profile client in NYC. The final design presentation for client approval was set for July 5th, which fell on a Monday that year. The presentation had to be PERFECT. Because of the holiday, the building had no air conditioning. We sweated the whole long weekend and began pinning up in the large conference room at 7:00 am on Monday the 5th. What we didn't know is our jet-setter client had flown to Paris for the weekend - on the Concorde, of course. At 9 am the phone rang - from Paris. It was the client's wife:
"Paris is so lovely we decided to stay another day. Let's have the presentation some other time"
So it was submitted on time, no back check of the documents so I'll probably get yelled at in a few weeks, anyway, Olaf, I'm pretty fast, you could probably beat me but I regularly help others and strategize the most efficient means of setting up different types of projects, even if it means using the great evil...CAD lol, Xenakis why do you still do it? Seems like you've struggled a lot. I'm not on a team so my push back of not staying later than 7 earlier actually worked because other office people had to be put on it, but I can totally understand the peer pressure of not leaving before others, is there a way you can quit and find another firm, your situation sounds way worse than mine, that seems rare, I work in more of a Draftertect scenario which seems to have better work life balance than design places, do you work in a design firm?
jeeeezzz... This sounds like a terrible slave ship rowing squad.
I pretty much make my own hours and rarely put in more than 45hrs. I leave at 5:05pm pretty much everyday.
^ Sounds a lot like my schedule.
^ that's a relief. I was starting to think I was an anomaly.
Some days I even leave at 4:30 if I only took a half hour for lunch. I still think we might be anomalous. But I have a good job, I like what I do, I like the firm I work for and the work we do, and I tend to think I have decent job security.
^That's pretty much how I roll here too. Just this morning I decided to make two surprise site visits, just because. I'll be heading home early as well tonight.
Must be the local markets.
StarchitectAlpha
Why? It really is my calling - things are better now - after 7 years - I choose my own battles - I work at a firm that is more reasonable where there is a work/life balance and most go home after 6pm - if I work late and on weekends(I am the only one who does), its my choice - before, I just had to roll with the punches. - Sure I had to work in a lot of sweat shops -
Everyday Intern, Non Sequitur - I'd say a lot of people have 9-6ish hours, in most places after I graduated from 'entry level' status I could be flexible in my hours as long as the work got done (bosses always wanted me to be there when they were there 8-5 or 9-6). Those people are probably less likely to be on here... you know, having other stuff to do. Looking back on big name design firms jobs I had, I felt like most of us chose to stick around and do more (better renderings/diagrams/sketches just to improve skills and push each other much like in school), it was fun while it was fun, then I moved on.
That experience does help in knowing how fast I can get something done if needed - but I choose to work at a reasonable pace most of the time.
"Money isn't everything, think of all of the good you are doing for the world." hahahaha, like this:
https://vimeo.com/130206124
If you're good at what you do and are competent at everything else, it's pretty easy tohit six-figures in 7~10yrs after a grad degree is reasonable in major cities (assuming you're looking for the higher pay during job searches). It's not a bad pay rate, even though loan payback is a pain.
starchitect - based on that propose structural changes to make your boss money with a backup plan. i.e. resumes out and interviews. and in your interviews tell them how you think you could help with managment and your issues with current employment.........Xenakis I hope you are at least getting paid for it well.
I work 40 hours a week, make good money and I'm not s bitch - life isn't that bad but could be better.
You are not a "project manager" if you are not appraised of and managing the fee and schedule, you are a drafter. I find it appalling that a firm can be managed with such a lack of transparency. You are being exploited severely for the profit of your employer. Ask for more transparency and responsibility or leave.
any update? (one week later)
Olaf, submitted on time, got some help from a coworker so pushing back worked a little bit but now that coworker acts like I screwed up instead of realizing it was management. Absolutely no time to back check, supposedly we will back check it before Bid but what will really happen is we won't and then all the mistakes will be my fault. BUT talked to my boss about hiring an actual drafter with an AS not an intern from a university and he was open. I'll keep pushing and if he just keeps kicking the can down the road I'll offer to hire someone through Odesk like I used to for my rendering business.
So you're gonna subcontract your work out? ...careful.
not without permission just hopefully as an incentive that if he doesn't like how it goes he's not stuck with a new employee
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