Hi everyone. I'm a licensed architect working in nyc. I have a full time job with a good salary and have been working in high end residential for about 12 years.
An old friend bought an old house in NJ and asked me for architectural plans to file with the town for a kitchen and bath renovation. They plan to move some walls and plumbing around.
The plan is that I will provide the permit plans and then they will work with their contractor to specify and purchase the kitchen cabinets, appliances, plumbing, etc.
I don't take on side projects like this but the only reason I am is because he's a close friend. I estimate that this will end up taking about 40 work hours. We have not yet discussed money and I have no idea how to charge him. Flat fee? Hourly?
Please advise if anyone have any good suggestions or experience doing work for family and friends.
1. It will take more than 40 hours; especially if you're building your own graphics assets from scratch.
2. start by saying "i'm not cheap"
3. charge at minimum 5k total. anything less is not sustainable as part of an on-going practice in the city. tell him to get a jersey architect if he wants something cheaper. we have rent to contend with, and autodesk likes to go after people with new york registrations.
You could also bill hourly. That is what I do with these little "projects for a friend." These small projects can be really quick and easy or they can drag on for forever. Usually they drag on for forever. Charging hourly protects you.
Your employer probably bills you out at three times what he or she pays you. I'd bill your friend either that or something close to it.
Residential permit plans should be relatively easy to complete and probably don't need your stamp, right? Most residential permit work I've seen has been hand drawn on graph paper by the homeowner (not the work I've done, just the work I've seen when I'm waiting in line at the permit office). Make sure you understand exactly what the permit requires and do no more (unless you're having fun with it, but the more info you include on the permit set, the more the examiner can question).
If you have to stamp them, charge more. If you're just doing something sufficient for him to build, and he's a really good friend, don't charge enough that you'll be upset if he doesn't pay you. Relationships can be worth more than money, in certain circumstances.
Hourly might be smart, but with a topset based on your assumed 40 hours. If it stretches longer than 40 due to *your friend's* requests, tell him you're going to have to go over your topset. If it goes over 40 due to *your* mistakes, don't charge more. The most important thing is open communication.
I'm curious, how big a firm do you work at, and are you privy to the employer's fee structure?
Are they going to trust a contractor or their buddy who did the plans? They're going to trust you and call you and ask for your help with every little thing any time of day or night or weekday or weekend.
IMO refer them to someone you trust in the business that wants to do it.
If you're going to work for a friend the compensation is irrelevant. Whatever you charge you will have to do whatever is necessary to protect your friend's interest in the project. That can mean anything from huge amounts of time to refunding fee in an attempt to placate them if the thing goes south.
As such it's not any easier but quite a bit simpler if you just do it as a friend and forget the fee. Hard to get PO'd at someone who is doing you a huge favor. Think karma, and whatever you do don't spec Waterworks or other ridiculously expensive absurdities.
^-- you get to pick whether you want a client or a friend.
do the work for a case of beer. case of wine if you're one of those sorts, or a nice bottle of bourbon, or whatever. either that, or let them know you won't be able to do it.
Design and spec the project to great detail and give him a set price. Any additional services will be additional. Example: your friend drags you to ikea in Jersey to pick out cabinets and furniture.
$5,000 sounds like a good price. No more than a 30% friend discount
EVERYTHING in NJ except drawings prepared by the homeowner require an architects seal.
However, if all you are doing is permit drawings, with the owner doing everything else, how can this take 40 hrs? If a homeowner handed me a survey, I could do the permit plans including zoning in less than 8. 12 if exceptionally complicated connection.
i second the suggestion to do the job for a case of beer or a meal at your fav restaurant.
Jerome, you clearly have your general notes ready then. If you've never done general notes + plumbing notes + millwork notes + electrical notes for this specific scope, editing a good set of notes will easily take 8 hours. General notes cover your ass. Phrasing them correctly isn't a trivial matter.
I have done several small side projects and experienced small jobs that dragged on for years and jobs that went very smooth. You can never tell how it will go. My time is valuable especially with a 7 month old baby. My wife would be pissed if i did a job for free.
I'm going to meet my friend at his new house this weekend to go over the scope. I plan to be straight forward and have him understand that this is real work and it will take me time to produce the permit plans. He does not have existing plans. So I'd need to survey the entire house. Redesign the layout. Put all the notes and sheets together. Plumbing riser diagram. electrical plans.
My friend's wife's father is a GC. So they really just need the permit plans. And no need for me to do CD or CA.
My current salary equals to $50 an hour. So that's what I am currently thinking of charging him the same. Hourly with a cap at $2500. If he thinks I'm charging too much, I will refer him to an local architect. Hopefully this goes over well with him.
The main reason that I would want to do this project is that my friend knows a lot of people and plus he's a social butterfly now living in a upper middle class suburb. he would blab about who his architect was. Which could lead to new and bigger jobs in the future. I would like to open my own practice in a couple of years.
Null pointer. I see your point and I would not run a firm at a $50 billing rate. But I would feel uncomfortable billing a close friend or family $100+ per hour while moonlighting.
Yikes, it is scary to know there are architects out there willing to work independently for only $50 per hour. I think if you don't charge at least $100 per hour they won't take you and your work seriously. Also why on earth offer them an hourly cap? If this turns out to be one of those projects that drags on you will be screwed.
I never offer such a cap and I've only been asked about it once or twice and then I only give them a verbal rough estimate of what I think my hours will be. I learned early on that EVERY SINGLE RESIDENTIAL CLIENT who comes to me has more money than I do otherwise they wouldn't be hiring an architect. They don't need my charity.
Why are architects so quick to undervalue themselves?
i think the cap only makes sense for a specific set of deliverables, such as schematic design, plus one change from owner feedback, through permit drawings.
any revisions beyond the one included in the scope, any delay caused by the owner's unresponsiveness, or other costs to the project outside the initial scope, would still be additional services above the cap.
if you know you're charging less than what would be reasonable for a real architect, then why not charge a case of beer (or other similar consideration)? it can't be the money, because you're not getting paid shit anyway right? charging beer should make it clear that you're doing this as a favor. if he doesn't want someone doing him favors, he can hire an architect that charges a normal fee right?
the gray area between real work and favor doesn't really makes sense to me. it obfuscates your intent. seems it would be easier to pick one, so there isn't confusion later.
Do you really need to do plumbing and electrical drawings for a permit set?
I would just do an existing conditions floor plan, demo plan, and proposed plan. Show just enough to get your permit. No need to get into details... the home owner and contractor will do that.
I wouldn't charge my friend anything (maybe a case of Fat Tire).
^^Brud-G is right! Sounds like you are a permit jockey. You say the HO and GC are gonna make all the decisions, I'd structure my drawings as follows.
For NJ;
No electrical drawing required from the architect. The electrician is permitted to prepare his own drawing and will sign his own permit.
Plumbing; do a basic riser diagram. That is all.
Mechanical; do nothing. HVAC Contractor will handling this. See elec above
General Notes, regarding structural only. HVAC/Electric/Plumbing is responsibility of HO, GC and Electrician/HVAC Cont. They are pulling their own permits and design/building these system. Don't waste your time.
Millwork is responsibility of IKEA, HO and GC.
Bang it out!- make a buck AND give your friend a reasonable fee
Oct 20, 15 2:06 pm ·
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Brud-G,
"Do you really need to do plumbing and electrical drawings for a permit set?"
Sometimes. It depends on things. Actually, as design professionals we do need to know enough about electrical and plumbing with regards to the basic systems used in residential and light commercial buildings so that we can deal with it accordingly on the building plans.
I would charge more if I had to do the MEP. I would charge accordingly what it would be if I had consultants doing the work.
As I said, that would be one of those.... sometimes.. situations. However, it is one of those things dependent on the nature of the project. However, I would prefer not to do it but sometimes it just is one of the things to do.
I would say, regardless of whether I will be using MEP consultants, in an existing conditions plan set, it would be prudent to not just document the building structure but also the MEP as is. We refer to that as "As-Is" and if the scope of change will effect mechanical and plumbing and electrical, it would be important to document where they are and how they go through the building (to best of your ability with note for field verification). Then you work through all that.
If the task is one of those kinds of projects, it won't be free for sure.
The simple answer is: it is a sometimes matter. It is sometimes appropriate that MEP consultants can be employed.
I use the term consultant on purpose and not to explicitly imply engineers but other qualified professionals.
While I understand your thinking regarding turning your hourly pay rate at work into a "friend rate" rather than bill something in the range of what your employer would bill for your time, you should at least convert from employee dollars to self-employed consultant dollars to determine the friend rate.
If you report this income (as you're supposed to if it's over $400) then you're paying both halves of social security, the higher rate for medicaid, and in some cases higher state taxes on it. Your employer is also paying various benefits - you need to take them into account in converting payroll to a self-employed hourly equivalent. The rule of thumb is that an employee hourly rate must be multiplied by 1.3 just to make the equivalent as a self-employed person - so your rock-bottom friend rate would be $65/hour.
Of course if you were working for yourself full time and having to support yourself at the same lifestyle as you are at your current salary, you'd have to bill considerably more to cover your overhead. You'd likely also bill more on top of that, because it's the nature of self-employment to have ebbs in workflow - you can't count on being occupied 40 hours per week in every week, so you need to cover the idle periods with your rates in the busy times...
Then there's the cumulative impact to the profession to consider, of all the architects taking all the friends' projects at friend rates...
Energy Code - Eff ResCheck. NJ permits prescriptive packages. Just list these on the drawings. Don't get sucked into the L&I gatekeeper's checklist that requires ResCheck.
And, I second Nullpointers last comment.
Oct 20, 15 4:15 pm ·
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nullpointer,
What have I said that is different than what others said aside from that sometimes it is a maybe.
If you can not prepare basic electrical, mechanical, and plumbing plans for a single family residence, you do not have the competency to practice architecture. I will request that you voluntarily surrender your license to the licensing board, IMMEDIATELY.
I am not talking about crazy stuff. I am talking about basic prescriptive NEC requirements for residential electrical. I am talking about the basic plumbing code stuff. I am talking basic Heating and ventilation and AC. Nothing like you see in a high rise.
We are talking IRC stuff.... come on.
I do know for a fact, architects are allowed by law to do the MEP on residential structures especially modifying something basic.
Blop, isn't the rule of thumb that a salary is 1/3rd of the billable rate? 1.3 sounds way off.
Oct 20, 15 4:46 pm ·
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Regional standard of care is a fictitious fabrication that changes by the day as there is NO SUCH standard as there is no such codification of such. As no one in a region really ever comes together to do such. There is no codification as none of you guys are talking to each other defining such a standard in order for there to be a standard. In the courts, the so called expert witnesses don't even practice what they say in the court. They just rehash academic pandering.
In reality, the only regional standard of care at all:
1. The regional codified laws and regulation & local laws/regulations of the authority having jurisdiction.
and
2. Your personal gut feeling about what you are willing to take responsibility over.
It can be proven that with each and every person brought in to express what they would do in the same circumstances, at some point, you will find varying opinions. Some will just say what their insurance company would say. They I will ask you, who is the architect.... you or the insurance company. If the insurance company, why don't client hire the insurance company to do the design. Why the f--- would the client need you?
I gave NJ specific information that goes specifically to what the OP said he wanted to do: basic permit drawings with the HO and GC making all other decisions. Preparing the drawings accordingly can help the OP charge for his time and help his friend pay for only what he needs/wants to.
this isn't about whether he can do basic electrical drawings. They are not needed. Your word vomit has only succeeded in obscuring the information provided.
Ive completed dozens if not hundreds of NJ projects and they are NOT EXEMPT!
Nullpointer: we're talking about two different things. A billing multiplier may be anywhere between 1.5 and 7, depending on the firm. 3 is pretty typical.
The rule of thumb for conversion of payroll to self-employed hourly pay is 1.3. In other words, the self-employed person needs to bill enough that what he pays himself AFTER overhead is at least 1.3 times what he would have made as an employee, to live the same lifestyle - because of the increased taxes and decreased benefits.
The OP was suggesting that he was going to charge his friend his hourly salary - not the firm's billing rate. I was just trying to point out that by the time he pays self-employment taxes on the $50/hr he's suggesting billing his friend, it will be worth much less than the same $50 that he gets from work is worth after taxes.
Note the "after overhead" part, OP. Bloop is on the right track.
I'm particularly bitter because I've lost two commissions to idiots bidding at the OP's rate (not. fucking. sustainable) and been asked to take over another one after the client picked another architect billing at double OP's rate because the kid couldn't do zoning calcs for an Alt-1.
As i've said before. I'm going to meet with my friend at the house this weekend and access the scope of work.
I really can't afford the time to do the work probono. So now considering eveyone's feedback, i'm thinking of friend's rate of $75 per hr. I'll do my best to educate & sell my services. I think that's a fair deal to both of us. If he think's that my fee is too high for the $500k house that he bought; I'll walk away. Hopefully he doesn't get too salty.
That's the thing, isn't it? $500k for the house another $120k for the kitchen. Nobody wants to be a chump.
Oct 20, 15 6:54 pm ·
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JeromeS,
Fair point. My point wasn't meant for the discussion to be about. It wasn't meant for a long duration. My point is there are times where it is sometimes necessary to do the MEP stuff ourselves. I understand the project maybe non-exempt in New Jersey but this stuff is pretty much exempt buildings in ~48 other states. New Jersey's law is an exceptional case when it comes to this kind of project. I work on projects much like the one that the OP is working on.
Regional standard of care doesn't really exist per se. For it to be a standard, it kind of needs to be codified. The only codified thing is the codified laws and rules. Beyond that, it is just personal comfort zone and working within one's area of competence. These issues are never at debate here. I understand that. Sometimes we are going a little off half-cocked in a debates that really need not be in that.
I do know these things. I been in this field for over 10 years.
Thanks for a semi-decent response. My original response was to Brud-G and what he said. It is hard to say exactly what the scope of the OP. If you are remodeling a bathroom or kitchen, sometimes, you need to document where existing utilities (natural gas, water & sewage lines, electrical, outlets, etc.) and where the changes of where these will be because if you change where the bath tub, toilets, outlet positions, etc.
That is why I said in response to Brud-G that it maybe the case, sometimes. Really, my response wasn't to the OP or to you.
nullpointer, please don't reply. I'm not interested in a debate cycle with you.
Sometimes we are going a little off half-cocked in a debates that really need not be in that.
Do you realize your entire post, in response to Brud-G asking that question (rhetorical or otherwise) is the entirety of the "half-cocked debate"?
Oct 20, 15 9:03 pm ·
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Then maybe you third-parties shouldn't like yourself and nullpointer should have simply not replied to it. If it was directed to a particular person, it might just be one of those things that out of a little bit of self-discipline to not reply.
I don't accept the kind of answers like nullpointer gave. If it is filled with vitriol... I'm going to flat out ignore and disregard the validity of the argument. If it is just a baseless statement without any form of supporting argument to the particular argument... like saying I don't know anything about the east coast. Unless there is some explicit aspect in the context that the east coast is that different stated to support the argument then it is invalid baseless argument. If it is different that much from the west coast, how is it... precisely? Be exact with exact reasons, what, why and how it is.
Then the argument of regional standard of care....? It is kind of like saying there is some organized codification. For there to be an adopted standard, it has to be codified. When competing firms and offices are competing, it is highly doubtful they talk to each other or are in any way are they going to collaborate to set a so called standard of care. If there is, what is the organization and what is the codified standard of care in that region? Name of the organization, the published and codified terms of a standard of care of that region? What is it?
I challenge that argument until someone presents empirical proof to support such a claim. Otherwise, its just a bogus, misrepresentation to look like a profession to lawyers and court judges when it really isn't that organized of a profession.
After all, it is your words, null pointer's words and the words of others. So is your regional "standard of care" ANSI/ISO accredited? If so, what is your standard of care called and is it ANSI/ISO accreditation so that it can be verified ?
Oh Richard... I thought for a moment you were actually making strides at focusing on your own career and moving forward. But no.
Richard you say the OP's project is similar to projects you do, and that you've been working in this field for 10 years - so how many completed bathroom and/or kitchen renovations have you done, and for how many of those did you do the permit drawings?
Oct 20, 15 10:30 pm ·
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Bloopox,
I am not giving numerical numbers but one of my projects involves remodeling a bathroom, a bedroom, wheelchair accessibility improvements to meet VA requirements and so forth. I did some basic electrical modifications plans for the bathroom and so forth. That's a current project.
As a matter of fact, they seem to finally moving forward with permit process so it is kind of re-engaging my time a little bit. It requires my attention.
When working on remodel projects of existing SFRs, doing the electrical, mechanical, and/or plumbing is not unheard of or unusual for the design professional to do.
There is also CWE project work involving field measurements, field sketches, field notes, refined drawings: plans, elevations, details, photographic documentation, organized, labeled, keyed to plan.
These are are not the only thing going on in the building design work. One of those things I am not discussing at this time. Others involves a little bit of time in connection with AIBD from which I hold professional membership with.
So translation is: you've done no bathroom or kitchen projects that have been built. You've never done permit drawings for a bathroom or kitchen project that have yet resulted in obtaining a permit. You're working on one stop-and-start project for which the client has yet to apply for a permit. In the past you worked on one fictitious project - which had no bathroom or kitchen - invented for you by the community college CAD department chair so that you could satisfy your co-op requirement, because you couldn't find a real co-op.
The issue I have with your advice to others has nothing to do with regional standards of care - it has to do with your near-total lack of experience. The OP in this thread is a licensed architect with 12 years of residential experience. He's asking for advice from his peers. You're not a peer.
Oct 20, 15 11:05 pm ·
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Bloopox,
The refusal to answer your question with numbers of projects is not to say there isn't any projects. It is simply to say that I don't want to satisfy answering you. I'll give you a set og numbers to guess in this list:
I won't tell you whether you got it right or wrong.
Your so called translation is BULLSHIT !
I don't tell you exact numbers because I am not going to give you a precise number.
The CWE requirements require that such work experience is related to the degree requirements.
None of my customarily paying clients commissioning me to design remodels, renovations, additions, new construction design or otherwise is something I would use for CWE. Why? I was already an independent business.
I rarely have other architects or building designers directly involved with my projects unless they are a business partner. If they are my competition, even if they are friends, I just don't do that because no one is going to pay me and may an architect or another designer (ie. paying twice for design services). Architects customarily charge building designers like myself far more than what they would charge a client to go directly through them.
Ask yourself, if you have an opportunity to be paid $30,000 to design a house for what may involve 500 hours of your time, would you work for an architect for $15/hr doing 80% of the work (400 hours) or would you do the design yourself and be paid $30,000?
$30,000 vs. $6000.... which would you do?
The market fluctuates but yes, I could very well have the opportunity to design houses or other structures for considerably more than $6,000.
Richard you haven't made $30k or $6k designing any houses.
The number of bathrooms and kitchens that you have designed that have actually been built from your permit drawings is zero.
Oct 21, 15 12:34 am ·
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The issue I have with your advice to others has nothing to do with regional standards of care - it has to do with your near-total lack of experience. The OP in this thread is a licensed architect with 12 years of residential experience. He's asking for advice from his peers. You're not a peer.
FOR FUCK SAKE, MY RESPONSE WASN'T TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER.
It was to a false and factually inaccurate statement of Brud-G.
You spend all your time making false statements about my experience which YOU, and NO ONE on this forum knows anything about.
You make a statement like regional standard of care. There is no such thing as regional standard of care except the laws, rules and regulations of the authorities having jurisdiction.
Architects do not collaborate to form a standard of care with each other. They don't establish and codify how to practice as an architect beyond that of the licensing board. There is no rule and in fact, there is an explicit statutory law that outrights permits architects to perform design of engineering systems. Did you not ever read: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/Statutes/buildingdesignlaw.pdf
Oh... never mind, laws and rules and regulations means nothing to you.
Oct 21, 15 12:39 am ·
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Bloopox,
I can tell you right now, there are between 1 and infinity number of projects that I have done that involved remodel of bathrooms and kitchens.
I have never said how many projects I have done.
Customarily, I charge a fee that is not more than 5% to 15% of the AMI (Area Median Income) for people making 100% AMI and pro-rated accordingly. For Clatsop county, that is $55,600 in 2013. That is usually around $2,780 to $8,340 for a project in Clatsop County.
Legally, one can not charge a fee that is so disproportionate that it would cause hardship to the client. Remember, construction loans can not be used to pay for the pre-construction services. If I charged a fee more than 20% of their income, I risk not being able to collect the fee because they can go to the courts and essentially get the judge to null and void my fee. Causing me problems. I have to be able to collect the fee and they would need to be able to afford the fee. I don't have the resources to be collecting and invoicing them for 5, 10 or 15 years out. It isn't worth it to me to be invoicing & collecting over 10-15 year time period.
This doesn't mean there isn't a client that can charge $30,000 to design.
Oct 21, 15 1:09 am ·
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Consider this that my fee isn't the expense factor. Although my fee has to somehow be profitable and I have to find some means to do so, I have to be careful my fee isn't going to be an excessive financial burden to the client.
How to charge for a Kitchen & Bath renovation
Hi everyone. I'm a licensed architect working in nyc. I have a full time job with a good salary and have been working in high end residential for about 12 years.
An old friend bought an old house in NJ and asked me for architectural plans to file with the town for a kitchen and bath renovation. They plan to move some walls and plumbing around.
The plan is that I will provide the permit plans and then they will work with their contractor to specify and purchase the kitchen cabinets, appliances, plumbing, etc.
I don't take on side projects like this but the only reason I am is because he's a close friend. I estimate that this will end up taking about 40 work hours. We have not yet discussed money and I have no idea how to charge him. Flat fee? Hourly?
Please advise if anyone have any good suggestions or experience doing work for family and friends.
Thanks.
don't
1. It will take more than 40 hours; especially if you're building your own graphics assets from scratch.
2. start by saying "i'm not cheap"
3. charge at minimum 5k total. anything less is not sustainable as part of an on-going practice in the city. tell him to get a jersey architect if he wants something cheaper. we have rent to contend with, and autodesk likes to go after people with new york registrations.
ask him to get an estimate from a non friend architect, then give him a 20% friendship discount.
All experienced architect will tell you the same thing... Don't do any work for a friend!
If you're not willing to do it gratis because they're a friend, don't do it.
You could also bill hourly. That is what I do with these little "projects for a friend." These small projects can be really quick and easy or they can drag on for forever. Usually they drag on for forever. Charging hourly protects you.
Your employer probably bills you out at three times what he or she pays you. I'd bill your friend either that or something close to it.
Residential permit plans should be relatively easy to complete and probably don't need your stamp, right? Most residential permit work I've seen has been hand drawn on graph paper by the homeowner (not the work I've done, just the work I've seen when I'm waiting in line at the permit office). Make sure you understand exactly what the permit requires and do no more (unless you're having fun with it, but the more info you include on the permit set, the more the examiner can question).
If you have to stamp them, charge more. If you're just doing something sufficient for him to build, and he's a really good friend, don't charge enough that you'll be upset if he doesn't pay you. Relationships can be worth more than money, in certain circumstances.
Hourly might be smart, but with a topset based on your assumed 40 hours. If it stretches longer than 40 due to *your friend's* requests, tell him you're going to have to go over your topset. If it goes over 40 due to *your* mistakes, don't charge more. The most important thing is open communication.
I'm curious, how big a firm do you work at, and are you privy to the employer's fee structure?
IMO refer them to someone you trust in the business that wants to do it.
My dad once told me “Never loan money to friends, or work for friends, because if you do you won’t end up with any friends”.
Advice is one thing, work & money is another.
If you're going to work for a friend the compensation is irrelevant. Whatever you charge you will have to do whatever is necessary to protect your friend's interest in the project. That can mean anything from huge amounts of time to refunding fee in an attempt to placate them if the thing goes south.
As such it's not any easier but quite a bit simpler if you just do it as a friend and forget the fee. Hard to get PO'd at someone who is doing you a huge favor. Think karma, and whatever you do don't spec Waterworks or other ridiculously expensive absurdities.
^-- you get to pick whether you want a client or a friend.
do the work for a case of beer. case of wine if you're one of those sorts, or a nice bottle of bourbon, or whatever. either that, or let them know you won't be able to do it.
just my $0.02
Design and spec the project to great detail and give him a set price. Any additional services will be additional. Example: your friend drags you to ikea in Jersey to pick out cabinets and furniture.
$5,000 sounds like a good price. No more than a 30% friend discount
EVERYTHING in NJ except drawings prepared by the homeowner require an architects seal.
However, if all you are doing is permit drawings, with the owner doing everything else, how can this take 40 hrs? If a homeowner handed me a survey, I could do the permit plans including zoning in less than 8. 12 if exceptionally complicated connection.
i second the suggestion to do the job for a case of beer or a meal at your fav restaurant.
Jerome, you clearly have your general notes ready then. If you've never done general notes + plumbing notes + millwork notes + electrical notes for this specific scope, editing a good set of notes will easily take 8 hours. General notes cover your ass. Phrasing them correctly isn't a trivial matter.
Thanks for all the comments.
I have done several small side projects and experienced small jobs that dragged on for years and jobs that went very smooth. You can never tell how it will go. My time is valuable especially with a 7 month old baby. My wife would be pissed if i did a job for free.
I'm going to meet my friend at his new house this weekend to go over the scope. I plan to be straight forward and have him understand that this is real work and it will take me time to produce the permit plans. He does not have existing plans. So I'd need to survey the entire house. Redesign the layout. Put all the notes and sheets together. Plumbing riser diagram. electrical plans.
My friend's wife's father is a GC. So they really just need the permit plans. And no need for me to do CD or CA.
My current salary equals to $50 an hour. So that's what I am currently thinking of charging him the same. Hourly with a cap at $2500. If he thinks I'm charging too much, I will refer him to an local architect. Hopefully this goes over well with him.
The main reason that I would want to do this project is that my friend knows a lot of people and plus he's a social butterfly now living in a upper middle class suburb. he would blab about who his architect was. Which could lead to new and bigger jobs in the future. I would like to open my own practice in a couple of years.
50 an hour?
Are you serious?
You get billed out at $150.
This is why architects are fucked.
No one can sustain a practice at 50 an hour.
A salary is not a billing rate. Run your numbers ASAP if you really want to start a firm in a few years.
why don't you have him find a local architect and then do the job for 2/3 or even 1.2 that price?
Are you really being billed out at $50? that is less than unskilled laborers in my area.
if nothing else that way he'll really appreciate what your doing
Null pointer. I see your point and I would not run a firm at a $50 billing rate. But I would feel uncomfortable billing a close friend or family $100+ per hour while moonlighting.
Yikes, it is scary to know there are architects out there willing to work independently for only $50 per hour. I think if you don't charge at least $100 per hour they won't take you and your work seriously. Also why on earth offer them an hourly cap? If this turns out to be one of those projects that drags on you will be screwed.
I never offer such a cap and I've only been asked about it once or twice and then I only give them a verbal rough estimate of what I think my hours will be. I learned early on that EVERY SINGLE RESIDENTIAL CLIENT who comes to me has more money than I do otherwise they wouldn't be hiring an architect. They don't need my charity.
Why are architects so quick to undervalue themselves?
i think the cap only makes sense for a specific set of deliverables, such as schematic design, plus one change from owner feedback, through permit drawings.
any revisions beyond the one included in the scope, any delay caused by the owner's unresponsiveness, or other costs to the project outside the initial scope, would still be additional services above the cap.
if you know you're charging less than what would be reasonable for a real architect, then why not charge a case of beer (or other similar consideration)? it can't be the money, because you're not getting paid shit anyway right? charging beer should make it clear that you're doing this as a favor. if he doesn't want someone doing him favors, he can hire an architect that charges a normal fee right?
the gray area between real work and favor doesn't really makes sense to me. it obfuscates your intent. seems it would be easier to pick one, so there isn't confusion later.
Do you really need to do plumbing and electrical drawings for a permit set?
I would just do an existing conditions floor plan, demo plan, and proposed plan. Show just enough to get your permit. No need to get into details... the home owner and contractor will do that.
I wouldn't charge my friend anything (maybe a case of Fat Tire).
^^Brud-G is right! Sounds like you are a permit jockey. You say the HO and GC are gonna make all the decisions, I'd structure my drawings as follows.
For NJ;
No electrical drawing required from the architect. The electrician is permitted to prepare his own drawing and will sign his own permit.
Plumbing; do a basic riser diagram. That is all.
Mechanical; do nothing. HVAC Contractor will handling this. See elec above
General Notes, regarding structural only. HVAC/Electric/Plumbing is responsibility of HO, GC and Electrician/HVAC Cont. They are pulling their own permits and design/building these system. Don't waste your time.
Millwork is responsibility of IKEA, HO and GC.
Bang it out!- make a buck AND give your friend a reasonable fee
Brud-G,
"Do you really need to do plumbing and electrical drawings for a permit set?"
Sometimes. It depends on things. Actually, as design professionals we do need to know enough about electrical and plumbing with regards to the basic systems used in residential and light commercial buildings so that we can deal with it accordingly on the building plans.
I would charge more if I had to do the MEP. I would charge accordingly what it would be if I had consultants doing the work.
As I said, that would be one of those.... sometimes.. situations. However, it is one of those things dependent on the nature of the project. However, I would prefer not to do it but sometimes it just is one of the things to do.
I would say, regardless of whether I will be using MEP consultants, in an existing conditions plan set, it would be prudent to not just document the building structure but also the MEP as is. We refer to that as "As-Is" and if the scope of change will effect mechanical and plumbing and electrical, it would be important to document where they are and how they go through the building (to best of your ability with note for field verification). Then you work through all that.
If the task is one of those kinds of projects, it won't be free for sure.
The simple answer is: it is a sometimes matter. It is sometimes appropriate that MEP consultants can be employed.
I use the term consultant on purpose and not to explicitly imply engineers but other qualified professionals.
STFU Richard, you know shit about working in the east coast. Go. The. Fuck. Away.
While I understand your thinking regarding turning your hourly pay rate at work into a "friend rate" rather than bill something in the range of what your employer would bill for your time, you should at least convert from employee dollars to self-employed consultant dollars to determine the friend rate.
If you report this income (as you're supposed to if it's over $400) then you're paying both halves of social security, the higher rate for medicaid, and in some cases higher state taxes on it. Your employer is also paying various benefits - you need to take them into account in converting payroll to a self-employed hourly equivalent. The rule of thumb is that an employee hourly rate must be multiplied by 1.3 just to make the equivalent as a self-employed person - so your rock-bottom friend rate would be $65/hour.
Of course if you were working for yourself full time and having to support yourself at the same lifestyle as you are at your current salary, you'd have to bill considerably more to cover your overhead. You'd likely also bill more on top of that, because it's the nature of self-employment to have ebbs in workflow - you can't count on being occupied 40 hours per week in every week, so you need to cover the idle periods with your rates in the busy times...
Then there's the cumulative impact to the profession to consider, of all the architects taking all the friends' projects at friend rates...
Oh, forgot- adding to my list above;
Energy Code - Eff ResCheck. NJ permits prescriptive packages. Just list these on the drawings. Don't get sucked into the L&I gatekeeper's checklist that requires ResCheck.
And, I second Nullpointers last comment.
nullpointer,
What have I said that is different than what others said aside from that sometimes it is a maybe.
If you can not prepare basic electrical, mechanical, and plumbing plans for a single family residence, you do not have the competency to practice architecture. I will request that you voluntarily surrender your license to the licensing board, IMMEDIATELY.
I am not talking about crazy stuff. I am talking about basic prescriptive NEC requirements for residential electrical. I am talking about the basic plumbing code stuff. I am talking basic Heating and ventilation and AC. Nothing like you see in a high rise.
We are talking IRC stuff.... come on.
I do know for a fact, architects are allowed by law to do the MEP on residential structures especially modifying something basic.
No you little fucktard, we are talking about regional standards of care.
Walk the fuck away.
Blop, isn't the rule of thumb that a salary is 1/3rd of the billable rate? 1.3 sounds way off.
Regional standard of care is a fictitious fabrication that changes by the day as there is NO SUCH standard as there is no such codification of such. As no one in a region really ever comes together to do such. There is no codification as none of you guys are talking to each other defining such a standard in order for there to be a standard. In the courts, the so called expert witnesses don't even practice what they say in the court. They just rehash academic pandering.
In reality, the only regional standard of care at all:
1. The regional codified laws and regulation & local laws/regulations of the authority having jurisdiction.
and
2. Your personal gut feeling about what you are willing to take responsibility over.
It can be proven that with each and every person brought in to express what they would do in the same circumstances, at some point, you will find varying opinions. Some will just say what their insurance company would say. They I will ask you, who is the architect.... you or the insurance company. If the insurance company, why don't client hire the insurance company to do the design. Why the f--- would the client need you?
.
DICK SHUT THE FUCK UP AND STOP DERAILING THREADS
Richard- please...
I gave NJ specific information that goes specifically to what the OP said he wanted to do: basic permit drawings with the HO and GC making all other decisions. Preparing the drawings accordingly can help the OP charge for his time and help his friend pay for only what he needs/wants to.
this isn't about whether he can do basic electrical drawings. They are not needed. Your word vomit has only succeeded in obscuring the information provided.
Ive completed dozens if not hundreds of NJ projects and they are NOT EXEMPT!
Nullpointer: we're talking about two different things. A billing multiplier may be anywhere between 1.5 and 7, depending on the firm. 3 is pretty typical.
The rule of thumb for conversion of payroll to self-employed hourly pay is 1.3. In other words, the self-employed person needs to bill enough that what he pays himself AFTER overhead is at least 1.3 times what he would have made as an employee, to live the same lifestyle - because of the increased taxes and decreased benefits.
The OP was suggesting that he was going to charge his friend his hourly salary - not the firm's billing rate. I was just trying to point out that by the time he pays self-employment taxes on the $50/hr he's suggesting billing his friend, it will be worth much less than the same $50 that he gets from work is worth after taxes.
Note the "after overhead" part, OP. Bloop is on the right track.
I'm particularly bitter because I've lost two commissions to idiots bidding at the OP's rate (not. fucking. sustainable) and been asked to take over another one after the client picked another architect billing at double OP's rate because the kid couldn't do zoning calcs for an Alt-1.
Thanks for all the feedback.
Bloopox . Thanks for the clarifying the 1.3X.
As i've said before. I'm going to meet with my friend at the house this weekend and access the scope of work.
I really can't afford the time to do the work probono. So now considering eveyone's feedback, i'm thinking of friend's rate of $75 per hr. I'll do my best to educate & sell my services. I think that's a fair deal to both of us. If he think's that my fee is too high for the $500k house that he bought; I'll walk away. Hopefully he doesn't get too salty.
That's the thing, isn't it? $500k for the house another $120k for the kitchen. Nobody wants to be a chump.
JeromeS,
Fair point. My point wasn't meant for the discussion to be about. It wasn't meant for a long duration. My point is there are times where it is sometimes necessary to do the MEP stuff ourselves. I understand the project maybe non-exempt in New Jersey but this stuff is pretty much exempt buildings in ~48 other states. New Jersey's law is an exceptional case when it comes to this kind of project. I work on projects much like the one that the OP is working on.
Regional standard of care doesn't really exist per se. For it to be a standard, it kind of needs to be codified. The only codified thing is the codified laws and rules. Beyond that, it is just personal comfort zone and working within one's area of competence. These issues are never at debate here. I understand that. Sometimes we are going a little off half-cocked in a debates that really need not be in that.
I do know these things. I been in this field for over 10 years.
Thanks for a semi-decent response. My original response was to Brud-G and what he said. It is hard to say exactly what the scope of the OP. If you are remodeling a bathroom or kitchen, sometimes, you need to document where existing utilities (natural gas, water & sewage lines, electrical, outlets, etc.) and where the changes of where these will be because if you change where the bath tub, toilets, outlet positions, etc.
That is why I said in response to Brud-G that it maybe the case, sometimes. Really, my response wasn't to the OP or to you.
nullpointer, please don't reply. I'm not interested in a debate cycle with you.
Oooo, a fight.
Sometimes we are going a little off half-cocked in a debates that really need not be in that.
Do you realize your entire post, in response to Brud-G asking that question (rhetorical or otherwise) is the entirety of the "half-cocked debate"?
Then maybe you third-parties shouldn't like yourself and nullpointer should have simply not replied to it. If it was directed to a particular person, it might just be one of those things that out of a little bit of self-discipline to not reply.
I don't accept the kind of answers like nullpointer gave. If it is filled with vitriol... I'm going to flat out ignore and disregard the validity of the argument. If it is just a baseless statement without any form of supporting argument to the particular argument... like saying I don't know anything about the east coast. Unless there is some explicit aspect in the context that the east coast is that different stated to support the argument then it is invalid baseless argument. If it is different that much from the west coast, how is it... precisely? Be exact with exact reasons, what, why and how it is.
Then the argument of regional standard of care....? It is kind of like saying there is some organized codification. For there to be an adopted standard, it has to be codified. When competing firms and offices are competing, it is highly doubtful they talk to each other or are in any way are they going to collaborate to set a so called standard of care. If there is, what is the organization and what is the codified standard of care in that region? Name of the organization, the published and codified terms of a standard of care of that region? What is it?
I challenge that argument until someone presents empirical proof to support such a claim. Otherwise, its just a bogus, misrepresentation to look like a profession to lawyers and court judges when it really isn't that organized of a profession.
After all, it is your words, null pointer's words and the words of others. So is your regional "standard of care" ANSI/ISO accredited? If so, what is your standard of care called and is it ANSI/ISO accreditation so that it can be verified ?
Oh Richard... I thought for a moment you were actually making strides at focusing on your own career and moving forward. But no.
Richard you say the OP's project is similar to projects you do, and that you've been working in this field for 10 years - so how many completed bathroom and/or kitchen renovations have you done, and for how many of those did you do the permit drawings?
Bloopox,
I am not giving numerical numbers but one of my projects involves remodeling a bathroom, a bedroom, wheelchair accessibility improvements to meet VA requirements and so forth. I did some basic electrical modifications plans for the bathroom and so forth. That's a current project.
As a matter of fact, they seem to finally moving forward with permit process so it is kind of re-engaging my time a little bit. It requires my attention.
When working on remodel projects of existing SFRs, doing the electrical, mechanical, and/or plumbing is not unheard of or unusual for the design professional to do.
There is also CWE project work involving field measurements, field sketches, field notes, refined drawings: plans, elevations, details, photographic documentation, organized, labeled, keyed to plan.
These are are not the only thing going on in the building design work. One of those things I am not discussing at this time. Others involves a little bit of time in connection with AIBD from which I hold professional membership with.
So translation is: you've done no bathroom or kitchen projects that have been built. You've never done permit drawings for a bathroom or kitchen project that have yet resulted in obtaining a permit. You're working on one stop-and-start project for which the client has yet to apply for a permit. In the past you worked on one fictitious project - which had no bathroom or kitchen - invented for you by the community college CAD department chair so that you could satisfy your co-op requirement, because you couldn't find a real co-op.
The issue I have with your advice to others has nothing to do with regional standards of care - it has to do with your near-total lack of experience. The OP in this thread is a licensed architect with 12 years of residential experience. He's asking for advice from his peers. You're not a peer.
Bloopox,
The refusal to answer your question with numbers of projects is not to say there isn't any projects. It is simply to say that I don't want to satisfy answering you. I'll give you a set og numbers to guess in this list:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,
33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,
61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,
89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,
112,113,114,115,116,117,118,119,120,121,122,123,124,125,126,127,128,129,130,131,
132,133,134,135,136,137,138,139,140,141,142,143,144,145,146,147,148,149,150,151,
152,153,154,155,156,157,158,159,160,161,162,163,164,165,166,167,168,169,170,171,
172,173,174,175,176,177,178,179,180,181,182,183,184,185,186,187,188,189,190,191,
192,193,194,195,196,197,198,199,200
I won't tell you whether you got it right or wrong.
Your so called translation is BULLSHIT !
I don't tell you exact numbers because I am not going to give you a precise number.
The CWE requirements require that such work experience is related to the degree requirements.
None of my customarily paying clients commissioning me to design remodels, renovations, additions, new construction design or otherwise is something I would use for CWE. Why? I was already an independent business.
I rarely have other architects or building designers directly involved with my projects unless they are a business partner. If they are my competition, even if they are friends, I just don't do that because no one is going to pay me and may an architect or another designer (ie. paying twice for design services). Architects customarily charge building designers like myself far more than what they would charge a client to go directly through them.
Ask yourself, if you have an opportunity to be paid $30,000 to design a house for what may involve 500 hours of your time, would you work for an architect for $15/hr doing 80% of the work (400 hours) or would you do the design yourself and be paid $30,000?
$30,000 vs. $6000.... which would you do?
The market fluctuates but yes, I could very well have the opportunity to design houses or other structures for considerably more than $6,000.
Richard you haven't made $30k or $6k designing any houses.
The number of bathrooms and kitchens that you have designed that have actually been built from your permit drawings is zero.
The issue I have with your advice to others has nothing to do with regional standards of care - it has to do with your near-total lack of experience. The OP in this thread is a licensed architect with 12 years of residential experience. He's asking for advice from his peers. You're not a peer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOR FUCK SAKE, MY RESPONSE WASN'T TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER.
It was to a false and factually inaccurate statement of Brud-G.
You spend all your time making false statements about my experience which YOU, and NO ONE on this forum knows anything about.
You make a statement like regional standard of care. There is no such thing as regional standard of care except the laws, rules and regulations of the authorities having jurisdiction.
Architects do not collaborate to form a standard of care with each other. They don't establish and codify how to practice as an architect beyond that of the licensing board. There is no rule and in fact, there is an explicit statutory law that outrights permits architects to perform design of engineering systems. Did you not ever read: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/Statutes/buildingdesignlaw.pdf
Oh... never mind, laws and rules and regulations means nothing to you.
Bloopox,
I can tell you right now, there are between 1 and infinity number of projects that I have done that involved remodel of bathrooms and kitchens.
I have never said how many projects I have done.
Customarily, I charge a fee that is not more than 5% to 15% of the AMI (Area Median Income) for people making 100% AMI and pro-rated accordingly. For Clatsop county, that is $55,600 in 2013. That is usually around $2,780 to $8,340 for a project in Clatsop County.
Legally, one can not charge a fee that is so disproportionate that it would cause hardship to the client. Remember, construction loans can not be used to pay for the pre-construction services. If I charged a fee more than 20% of their income, I risk not being able to collect the fee because they can go to the courts and essentially get the judge to null and void my fee. Causing me problems. I have to be able to collect the fee and they would need to be able to afford the fee. I don't have the resources to be collecting and invoicing them for 5, 10 or 15 years out. It isn't worth it to me to be invoicing & collecting over 10-15 year time period.
This doesn't mean there isn't a client that can charge $30,000 to design.
Consider this that my fee isn't the expense factor. Although my fee has to somehow be profitable and I have to find some means to do so, I have to be careful my fee isn't going to be an excessive financial burden to the client.
another thread ruined.
i don't understand how this asshole isn't banned yet.
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