As some of you may know if you followed my previous posts over the last few months I am in a bit of a dilemma.
I run a very small, but relatively successful landscape architecture business in Colorado. We have earned better projects and do enough volume to keep myself and my wife and partner very busy. our projects are mostly small, and lots of odds and ends to pay the bills, including signage, art installations, graphics/illustration, etc.
We are in an area, geographically, where we feel extremely isolated. We live and work in a small valley with lots of wealth to keep the local construction industry chugging. We are both relatively young, mid 30's and eager to keep learning, experimenting with new ideas, new types of work, etc.
The dilemma is that we are doing OK here. We are making a decent living, work is coming in, and we are surrounded by beautiful landscapes. The problem is that we are not getting the types of projects we are passionate about--mostly residential, private, and others our hearts are not really in. The nearest urban center (culture, art, universities, etc) is a grueling 4 hour drive in often heavy traffic. And even still, that city is essentially landlocked with limited access to the aforementioned. Housing in our area is completely unaffordable for regular middle class folks, even despite the fact that we are doing well financially.
To make matters more complicated, we lucked out two years ago and purchased a condo bank owned for well below market value. Unfortunately it is a very small condo (approx 800sf). The real estate market is surging in our area and there is almost zero new construction on the horizon. Hence, we are very tempted to sell our place, take the cash and split.
We want kids and a bit more space and we also want to raise kids in a lace where they are not so sheltered. We want them to experience different cultures, like my wife and I did. I am afraid our little valley is a little too lily white. We want to be near a city or in a lace where we can have a littlre more mobility, accessing nature, recreation, several small towns (where we could set up shop), and bigger cities for lectures, learning, access to an employee pool.
We've gone as far in our thinking to consider closing our business and finding employment in a place where we think we could be happy, at least until we build up a network and feel comfortable going on our own again. We really want to find an area where we can access all kinds of different work and push creative boundaries, whereas in our current area, we feel a bit stifled.
I grew up in northern New England, wife is from Chicago area. We are considering both areas, though Chicago is kind of a bummer as we both love the mountains, skiing, hiking, biking, etc. Parts of Massachusetts, NH, and even VT seem like viable options??
Its very scary to me to think about giving up our business to take another leap of faith, but I also hate to think about the possibility of regretting not taking the leap to see what was out there. Who knows, maybe we could be even more busy elsewhere?
Anyone have experience with a similar situation? Any experience working in the areas mentioned?
I'm really confused about what to do. Any insight would be VERY much appreciated.
Parts of Upstate New York may be a good option, I myself recently moved back home to NY from Colorado. NY has beautiful landscapes and beautiful mountains and lakes, most people do not realize NY has the largest protected mountain park in the lower 48. Costs of living are not bad once you get north of the city, maybe Albany would be a okay option? It is 2 hours from Boston and New York City. Or Portland Maine - Burlington would be nice places as small cities with a good amount of culture still and cost of living that is doable. Plus the east has tress! but the winters are still just like you remembered haha.
Are you close to Denver? The grass is always greener...what you describe is many peoples version of paradise...If you have a good thing going why start over? A move for your small studio will essentially mean starting from scratch. I understand your desire to work on more urban and public projects, but you do not need to relocate to do so. Just my 2 cents..
There are so, so many issues weighing on your decisions, so I'll only weigh in on one part: the kids.
If you get pregnant then have kids, it will be easier if at least one of you is employed somewhere with excellent health insurance benefits. This will also extend to day care, as larger companies tend to offer the option to set aside pre-tax dollars to pay for it, which adds up to a LOT of savings over five years.
And nothing, absolutely nothing, is as helpful when you have young kids as having family nearby who can take care of them, especially on an emergency basis, when both you and your wife are out of sick time and you need someone to come over *right now* so you can make it to the meeting you cannot miss. With very young kids, IMO, the best situation is one partner self-employed, one in a big company that offers great benefits, and family or a network of very close friends nearby.
No matter what decision you make there will be aspects of your life that are better and aspects that are worse. There's nothing wrong with that: that's life. Enjoy it.
I just moved from Denver to Chicago for the same reasons, although I am much younger and just starting my career. Breaking news: you wont find more challenging and stimulating projects in Chicago. It is extremely conservative, and probably just as much if not more developer driven than any mountain town in Colorado.
You should move to Denver/ Boulder/ Longmont. That metro area is going through great changes, and they will only accelerate. My plan is actually to move back, hopefully after the next crash, when all the loot I am making here is worth more in the housing market.
Most importantly, though, you could finish out projects in your mountain enclave and probably even pick up some new ones while you establish your practice in the Denver metro area. If you don't over-promise in-person meetings with the client, traveling back and forth to keep the work flowing for a while doesn't really sound that bad.
Unless you are going to move to New York or LA, just do Denver. Those are the only places with more challenging/ stimulating design cultures and clients than your typical 2nd or 3rd tier city.
Also, I agree with Carrera, it is preferable to be a big fish in a small pond. Not only for the ego, but for greater ability to dictate your own terms which goes a long way towards helping work-life balance.
Denver is booming market in desperate need of better design - and there is a market for it.
Denver is booming, I can attest. Word is there is someone moving to the city every 20 minutes. If you move anywhere you will essentially have to restart your practice from scratch, can you do that? Do you want to? How about Durango? Flagstaff? Both have universities so have better civic and cultural life than other cities that size.
FWIW: The Forbes 2015 "Best Places for Business and Careers" lists Denver as #4, Ft. Collins as #5, Greeley as #20, Boulder as #25 and Colorado Springs as #29 - this is relative to ALL other cities in the US.
While I don't otherwise have any specific contribution to your dilemma about balancing career and lifestyle, the above information certainly seems relevant to the decision you're trying to make.
Being currently “Profitable” is a factor…today, if you’re good, you don’t need to be there to play there…James Bassett’s office is in the middle of Nowhere-Ohio and he works all over the country.
Meant to add....his office is on his rural farm….find rural ground to live/work to showcase your work…nobody wants to hire a landscape architect with an office in a glass box…..live it and sell it.
That's what happens when you legalize pot, everyone stops worrying about their money, and starts worrying about how sober they are in any given time. YOLO folks...yoloo!
Are you close to Denver? The grass is always greener...what you describe is many peoples version of paradise...If you have a good thing going why start over? A move for your small studio will essentially mean starting from scratch. I understand your desire to work on more urban and public projects, but you do not need to relocate to do so. Just my 2 cents..
We are about 4 hours from Denver--not much else in between. The rural/mountain and Front Range markets dont crossover much. The mountain communities tend to have their own local consultants (like us) whereas the Front Range/Denver consultants have a LARGE pool of consultants. We are lucky in that we have ties to the Front Range and often do subconsulting work (conceptual design and graphics) for several Front Range firms, but we do not get credit and do not typically see the projects though to construction, so they are typically not portfolio worthy as we are aiming for built work. Our portfolio, consequently is chock full of drawings, illustrations, unbuilt work--which is frustrating in its own right.
It's true, in many respects we do have a good thing going, and the grass does look grenner elsewhere. I am aware of and vigilant about this kind of thinking derailing our forward momentum, but I am also an opportunist. As I mentioned, the RE market here is obscene. We will almost certainly NEVER be able to afford a reasonably sized home to raise a family unless we go way out in the hinterlands, then we'd be even more isolated. We bought our place bank owned and made a great choice in terms of timing with that. We could unload it today for probably 65% over what we paid two years ago. But where would we go?? Its hard to ignore the idea that we could cash out from our one bed condo and put $100k in our pockets and relocate in a place where we could afford a detached home with a yard and access to all the things I mentioned for what our condo is worth. We bought low, could sell high, and buy in the middle...or so it seems anyway. No doubt, we would be potentially moving to an area with less wealth, but would still have access to equal wealth closer to the cities.
Tintt, Stone, Archanon--
I hear you. We both lived up and down the Front Range for nearly ten years. We both went to school in Fort COllins, lived in Boulder, and worked in Denver. Yes, it is booming, but it is also a cluster___ of people. I absolutely HATE the I-70 corridor and getting out of the city(s) is a HUGE pain. And RE prices are almost as bad as our little valley. Been there, done that. I also struggle with the fact that there is no water. I grew up on the coast and every years I get a deeper yearning to be near water. I just cant see us going back to the FR, but your points are very valid.
Carerra--
The Dilemma: A big fish in a little pond or A little fish in a big pond, I prefer the former….remember The Rule of the Sea……
Great point, thank you. I have thought about this. Actually, part of my reasoning for not moving back to the FR would be thiis fact, There are so many people per square mile on the FR and so many established forms that I'm afraid we would get lost in the shuffle. We could set up in a small town, like we did here, but honestly the prospect of living in the eastern plains, even further removed from the rockies and bisected by the ever-rumbling I-25 corridor is depressing. Its a hot, dry, and essentially uninspiring landscape.
Going back east to NE seems like a viable prospect because the geography allows for much greater mobility. Just looking at a map, its clear that one can live centrally and access each and every cardinal direction with a plethora of small towns in between every major urban center. I could envision us setting up in a place like Lebanon, NH or outsode Burlington, VT, or Albany, NY and marketing to over 30 small (pop 3500-10000) towns while still being close enough (within 2-3 hours) of at least 2-3 major urban centers (Boston, NY) and at least 4-5 small cities (Portland, Burlington, Albany, Manchester, Concord). Additionally, we could access a number of great universities in less than two hours, the ocean, mountains, lakes, and national forests. The only worry is whether all the work, even in the small towns is dominated by the big boys out of Boston/Cambridge and NY??? Its scary to think about being a small fish in a BIG ocean, but its also exciting to think about growing into that ocean and bettering ourselves. A professor used to tell me--you never get better at tennis by playing with an inferior opponent. I guess theres a balance there somewhere. Dan Kiley, a very prominent LA built his practice in northern Vermont and NH because he loved to ski and be outdoors. Its why so many LA's are drawn to LA. But he worked with some of the greatest modern architects of his day out of NY, DC and Boston. Im unsure if those days are gone and we all have to be in the city???
We are 'profitable.' If we made what we are making now in a place like southern NH we would be living very well. We are profitable, but just middle class, at best in our local area. The average household income here (for middle class still qualifying for subsidized housing) is around $180k. I find that to be absolutely absurd.
Donna--
Thank you! We have talked about this for some time and have been told the same by others, including our families. We each see our families MAYBE once a year or every two years because it is so expensive to get in and out of here. We have never taken a real vacation, just long weekends here and there and even those are rare these days, so Im not sure how what you mentioned would ever work for us here. Again, I am seeing us as being very isolated.
I worked a short while for an architect doing mostly SFH's from his office in Peterborough, NH. Actually a lot of the work ended up being in Boston suburbs, or local vacation homes for those people. You might be competing with firms from Boston, but you'll also have access to those markets. I would guess long term being in a more diverse, larger market is more stable than a small isolated valley.
Second what Donna says. If you can live somewhere near family or better afford a guestroom for in-laws you'll be so much better able to handle raising a child. I feel this is as important as all your other considerations in where you locate.
I don’t know, I still subscribe to the idea that you can take somebody who is real good and throw him randomly out of an airplane at 30,000 feet and he’d thrive upon landing (Oaky, or she).
^depends how good they are with parachutes I suppose.
But I'd agree - don't fear being in a bigger market. If you were doing well, you're doing something right, and still will have that capacity elsewhere.
I hear you Larchitect. I-70 and real-estate prices were why I moved.
the Northeast is pleasant, especially up near Vermont.
Have you considered cashing out, moving somewhere inexpensive (like Chicago) and working corporate for a few years before having kids? It would probably net you a nice chunk of change with which to re-start your own practice.
We have considered just that, but leaning more toward the northern New England region. Compared to the Colorado Rockies, the New England RE market looks like a candy store. We'd be happy going to work for a good firm, learning, and building up our network. Having some dough in our pockets would make this idea a lot easier to stomach. I wouldnt consider going back to the employment world otherwise.
Well, if you are interested, I've got a building in Littleton already setup as an architect's office. Right next to downtown, on the historic register, two blocks from light rail, etc. (I own the lease for the next 6 years). Just google the area since it's also good for kids. That would allow you to keep your clientele and get you closer to Denver if you've considered staying in the area. Littleton also has that small town vibe even though it's just a metro. The other nice advantage is it's only 4 hrs away from where you were putting you close to friends and support if you need it.
But no real water... just the Platte and Chatfield Res.
I plan everything around traffic. It took me half an hour to drive 4 miles in Denver the other day. Could almost walk faster. I commute between Boulder and Denver often and sometimes it can take 2 hours to drive the 25 miles if there has been an accident or weather. The area is experiencing growing pains, could use good design help. Lots of people means lots of business and lots of excitement so I put up with the annoyances. I have books on tape for times when I can't avoid the traffic. But you gotta go where your heart takes you, which sounds like NE.
mighty--thanks! I may get in touch with you at some point. If we stay in the valley, we would certainly want to at least pursue work more aggressively on the FR.
JLC--I know you know how it is. The grass is always greener..yada, yada...and we havent traveled much. Its tough getting away for a day or two let alone an entire vacation...
tintt--I know how it is, been there. I used to commute from cherry creek to fort collins and back daily. It almost drove me nuts and I think traffic has gotten worse in the last five years.
We have a trip planned to NE next month to scout things out and do the usual tourist stuff. Its worth it if only for the temporary change of scenery. If anyone here is in NE and would be open to grabbing coffee or a beer let me know. We plan to fly into Boston and drive north through MA, NH, VT, and possibly western maine.
Famous landscape architects are sought out for business from clients who live all over the world. In fact, visiting you in your present location might be a draw for them.
It seems like the upper crust in the NE is dominated by the Boston/NYC firms, mostly because the architects are hired from there (also where the client's home bases are). There are a few scattered LA firms up in ME/NH/VT, but no one too big since Kiley. Do remember that while things may appear close, traffic can really hamper mobility (getting from a CT office to our clients in NYC or Boston pretty much killed an entire day). There are a lot of successor firms to Kiley and Rolland (a big chunk of CT resi firms cut their teeth under Peter); and the architects all have their preferred list of consultants. As with all regions, you'll need to be competitive - one thing I noticed working in CT under a powerhouse LA office was that our fees had a hard time competing against big city firms that could hire quality interns at bargain prices.
Also, I notice that it's hard to find areas with good public schools in large populations, there seems to be a preference to send kids to private schools ($!).
"Famous landscape architects are sought out for business from clients who live all over the world. In fact, visiting you in your present location might be a draw for them."
Why didn't I think of that? Doesn’t apply to just "famous".
How about "talented" instead. Luciano Giubbelei comes to mind as a wonderful minimalist LA. At this point in his career he could live anywhere as he has projects all over the globe. But he isn't a real LA as he only had 15 months formal education. Vladimir Djurovic works out of Lebanon, and Nelson Byrd Wolf is headquartered in Charlottesville, VA.
If you're done with the small town world and you hate everything about it, i guess that's one thing. In that case, go live in a large city for a while. You'll discover it has it's limitations too.
If you have a successful business in a small mountain town and you like your neighbors and work colleagues & clients, do not rock that boat! You don't know what you have.
I'd uproot in half a second if I could relocate my business to a Telluride or Jackson or Nelson BC.
I don't think you will find a better spot in VT or some such -- it will be same bubble lifestyle, new location, no urban access. And worse skiing, (Sorry EC, 1 or 2 seasons of epic snow is all you'll get)!
My suggestion: travel more, esp since you don't have kids yet. Get your fix of urbanity and then take those experiences back with you to burst the bubble when it seems too small and inwardly reflective.
I agree with the above. In addition upstate New York is pretty dead economically. And any gains from the selling of the Colorado condo will be eaten up quickly by New York's tax structure.
Jul 21, 15 5:19 pm ·
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Plus, you likely get a 150 to 250 sq.ft. abode to live in. Ok... some places in New York. Not all places.
Why do you think I wrote: some places in New York. Not all places.
Another thing to consider, what will the money from selling the condo in Colorado will buy in Colorado is not necessarily the same as what you can buy in places of New York.
null i think Richard googled "abodes upstate New York", one link led to another and he landed on the cabin story where the escaped convicts lived and then based his sentence on that square footage.....he then realized that that could not be right - he googled abode and not cabin. so then he tried "abode new york" and got some NYC links and figured my Googling session is over lets post it......then to sound more educated after your comment he googled New York vs Colorado real estate and learned about cost differences.......at the end of every search engine is divine knowledge.
Resurrecting this thread because I'm feeling the itch again. I've been told its called 'alley-itis' and everyone gets it. The locals travel, a lot. We'll be making a chicago trip to get a little culture and urbanity in a few weeks and another tip to new england this summer.
We had a BLAST on our last trip to new england--just drove and rove all over the place, walked all over boston, up to burlington, back down to the coast, up and down the seashore, camping, swimming, etc. It was awesome.
Over two years later our little mountain town is still trying to figure out how to build a hotel and a few units downtown. The NIMBYs and BANANAs have been out in force with petitions, LTE's, pitchforks at council meetings, etc. Such a headache to make a little progress and we're barely talking design.
I get bummed out with how little is happening here and how much potential it has to be really cool. Evidently people have been saying that for twenty years. Meanwhile near my home town in New England I just read a local architect floated the idea of the town building a new 'town square' for traffic calming and public space. The City Manager took it up and its happening in under 6 months. '
As far as business we've been doing great, getting busier and busier with better projects. Still could be better. A lot of spec homes and making lemonade. We got bored with our regular project work and opened a 'Design Center' in our downtown where I go after work every day to draw and share ideas for downtown. So far its seems to have stirred some energy. We'll see.
Love the idea, Volunteer and Carerra suggest--that if we're talented we can be based anywhere, and our mountain location might actually be a draw. If it means anything, the state firm of the years office is across the street from us, so that must say something.
Larchinect, I know what you mean about valley-itis. I used to live on Nantucket island and everyone there (me included) would go to Colorado to get away (or Vermont, Maine or someplace warm). I now live near Portland, Maine and like someone said above, many of the best residential projects are done by Boston or NY firms, because that's where the owners live.
There are some good landscape architects here but competition is strong, and they often end up doing projects in Boston or Cape Cod because there are only so many projects in our sparsely populated state. If I didn't have family here, the greener pastures I would be looking at would include going back to Boston/Cape Cod, or the Albany area. I was involved in a project near Woodstock, NY last year and the market is hot there, with lots of big hills to make you feel at home. David Bowie was having a house build next door, which isn't relevant to anything, I just thought it was cool.
That said, Portland (ME) has a very positive vibe, is growing quickly, has excellent restaurants, lots of design-oriented people, and it's only 1.5 hours to decent skiing (by east coast standards).
funny, i actually grew up in portland and still have family there. Portland was one of the places we've been keeping an eye on. of all the ne towns outside boston, portland area actually looked like it might have its own market. Id be curious to hear more about the projects youre working on.
My projects these days probably aren't that interesting to you--mostly energy efficient new homes (up to Passive House level) and renovations, usually with very tight budgets. I used to work at a design/build company and we did some bigger projects with landscape architects. If you're into Permaculture, there is a thriving group based in Portland; last I knew it was the biggest in the country, and very active. If you want to chat offline, shoot me an email at mycoblue73 at gmail dot com. I'd be happy to share names of RA's and RLA's I know who do nicer projects here.
I'd say wait out the storm just a little more, I bet the field will clear out after April's election; I am appalled at the greed displays of your town's realtors and wealthy homeowners.
You might want to seriously consider Upstate/Central New York. Near unlimited water, strong agricultural community, beautiful landscapes, skiing, hiking, boating et cetera.
Rochester, for instance, is an old pro-urban very liberal city with a lot of new tech jobs, a lot of old money and is doing a lot of massive urban renewal projects— tearing out their inner loop highway system, widening sidewalks, upzoning entire portions of the city.
Also, it's one of the poorest cities in the U.S. and a household income of $40k is very upper middle class.
Oh yeah!, That's exactly what's happening, and what's worst, this group pretends to pay for the subject property with tax money.....and they don't like big government !! HA!
We have an election in april which, as jlc notes, may or may not clear out some of the bananas on council. Jlc is absolutely right that it ultimately comes down to a small group selfishly looking after their own property values and 'quality of life.' Im in the strange position of arfuing against a very large park (as a landscape architect) in our downtown.
What this spells for my wife an i is an aging community growing more exclusive with less opportunity for personal and professional growth. Limited affordable office space, limited or no housing and a culture stuck in the 80's. Ugh. Holding on through april...
If you are going to the east coast you might consider a trip to Savannah, GA, and Charleston, SC, either, or both, will be very rewarding for a landscape architect.
I moved the fam to colorado two years ago for a better quality of life. We love playing in the mountains. The dream was to score a gig in Summit or Eagle county to complete the dream. Two years later, I can tell you that I just turned down a very good job offer in Vail to pursue my own business in Denver. Never been to Aspen, but if its anything like Vail, I dont blame you for wanting to get out. Super pretentious assholes... Denver, with all its faults, is a very interesting place to be.
I'm maybe in a unique position. For various reasons, I've moved approximately every 3 years since graduation. This has allowed me to go through the process of significant relocation and see how it affects your career.
I'd say my career would be further along if I hadn't moved.
It takes 1 year for people to begin to trust you and 3 years before you are settled into a social circle. This applies to friendships, jobs and business. I don't really know what happens after 3 years because I've never gotten that far.
Donna makes an excellent comment regarding family. I'd recommend that one of you have a day job while the children are young, then possibly starting the business after a few years. This will smooth over some of the bumps of the transition. Family is not to be understated. My wife and I had children while thousands of miles from family and it was rough.
If you move to NE and start a business you won't make much of any money for the first year. I'm at year 2.5 now and feel that I'm just starting to become a real business. I'm still not getting rich, but have managed to replace my previous salary, so there's that.
I'm in urban NE. I like the cost of living vs what I get for the money. The fact that I'm on the I-95 corridor is huge. I was previously in upstate NY. It's kinda economically dead there, so I wouldn't be rushing to Rochester. I think it's much easier to have a business when transportation options, people with money and large markets are easy and nearby.
IF you are planning to put off kids for 2-3 years, then maybe one of you works, at least part time, while you re-start your biz. It made it much easier to start my biz because my wife has a day job. Don't be afraid to take on drafting gruntwork early on too, I did some of that and it smoothed my transition. Now I have no time for that kind of work.
Surprising how many small but good architect’s list satellite offices on their websites…might be worth considering to scratch that itch….try marketing in the dream location and spend some family time there to touch bases from time to time…to see if you can land something…best of both worlds if you could get paid to go on vacation…lots of satellite offices in condo’s….you never know.
Relocate A Profitable Business?
As some of you may know if you followed my previous posts over the last few months I am in a bit of a dilemma.
I run a very small, but relatively successful landscape architecture business in Colorado. We have earned better projects and do enough volume to keep myself and my wife and partner very busy. our projects are mostly small, and lots of odds and ends to pay the bills, including signage, art installations, graphics/illustration, etc.
We are in an area, geographically, where we feel extremely isolated. We live and work in a small valley with lots of wealth to keep the local construction industry chugging. We are both relatively young, mid 30's and eager to keep learning, experimenting with new ideas, new types of work, etc.
The dilemma is that we are doing OK here. We are making a decent living, work is coming in, and we are surrounded by beautiful landscapes. The problem is that we are not getting the types of projects we are passionate about--mostly residential, private, and others our hearts are not really in. The nearest urban center (culture, art, universities, etc) is a grueling 4 hour drive in often heavy traffic. And even still, that city is essentially landlocked with limited access to the aforementioned. Housing in our area is completely unaffordable for regular middle class folks, even despite the fact that we are doing well financially.
To make matters more complicated, we lucked out two years ago and purchased a condo bank owned for well below market value. Unfortunately it is a very small condo (approx 800sf). The real estate market is surging in our area and there is almost zero new construction on the horizon. Hence, we are very tempted to sell our place, take the cash and split.
We want kids and a bit more space and we also want to raise kids in a lace where they are not so sheltered. We want them to experience different cultures, like my wife and I did. I am afraid our little valley is a little too lily white. We want to be near a city or in a lace where we can have a littlre more mobility, accessing nature, recreation, several small towns (where we could set up shop), and bigger cities for lectures, learning, access to an employee pool.
We've gone as far in our thinking to consider closing our business and finding employment in a place where we think we could be happy, at least until we build up a network and feel comfortable going on our own again. We really want to find an area where we can access all kinds of different work and push creative boundaries, whereas in our current area, we feel a bit stifled.
I grew up in northern New England, wife is from Chicago area. We are considering both areas, though Chicago is kind of a bummer as we both love the mountains, skiing, hiking, biking, etc. Parts of Massachusetts, NH, and even VT seem like viable options??
Its very scary to me to think about giving up our business to take another leap of faith, but I also hate to think about the possibility of regretting not taking the leap to see what was out there. Who knows, maybe we could be even more busy elsewhere?
Anyone have experience with a similar situation? Any experience working in the areas mentioned?
I'm really confused about what to do. Any insight would be VERY much appreciated.
Thanks
Parts of Upstate New York may be a good option, I myself recently moved back home to NY from Colorado. NY has beautiful landscapes and beautiful mountains and lakes, most people do not realize NY has the largest protected mountain park in the lower 48. Costs of living are not bad once you get north of the city, maybe Albany would be a okay option? It is 2 hours from Boston and New York City. Or Portland Maine - Burlington would be nice places as small cities with a good amount of culture still and cost of living that is doable. Plus the east has tress! but the winters are still just like you remembered haha.
Are you close to Denver? The grass is always greener...what you describe is many peoples version of paradise...If you have a good thing going why start over? A move for your small studio will essentially mean starting from scratch. I understand your desire to work on more urban and public projects, but you do not need to relocate to do so. Just my 2 cents..
There are so, so many issues weighing on your decisions, so I'll only weigh in on one part: the kids.
If you get pregnant then have kids, it will be easier if at least one of you is employed somewhere with excellent health insurance benefits. This will also extend to day care, as larger companies tend to offer the option to set aside pre-tax dollars to pay for it, which adds up to a LOT of savings over five years.
And nothing, absolutely nothing, is as helpful when you have young kids as having family nearby who can take care of them, especially on an emergency basis, when both you and your wife are out of sick time and you need someone to come over *right now* so you can make it to the meeting you cannot miss. With very young kids, IMO, the best situation is one partner self-employed, one in a big company that offers great benefits, and family or a network of very close friends nearby.
No matter what decision you make there will be aspects of your life that are better and aspects that are worse. There's nothing wrong with that: that's life. Enjoy it.
The Dilemma: A big fish in a little pond or A little fish in a big pond, I prefer the former….remember The Rule of the Sea……
So you are in Durango or Telluride or something?
I just moved from Denver to Chicago for the same reasons, although I am much younger and just starting my career. Breaking news: you wont find more challenging and stimulating projects in Chicago. It is extremely conservative, and probably just as much if not more developer driven than any mountain town in Colorado.
You should move to Denver/ Boulder/ Longmont. That metro area is going through great changes, and they will only accelerate. My plan is actually to move back, hopefully after the next crash, when all the loot I am making here is worth more in the housing market.
Most importantly, though, you could finish out projects in your mountain enclave and probably even pick up some new ones while you establish your practice in the Denver metro area. If you don't over-promise in-person meetings with the client, traveling back and forth to keep the work flowing for a while doesn't really sound that bad.
Unless you are going to move to New York or LA, just do Denver. Those are the only places with more challenging/ stimulating design cultures and clients than your typical 2nd or 3rd tier city.
Also, I agree with Carrera, it is preferable to be a big fish in a small pond. Not only for the ego, but for greater ability to dictate your own terms which goes a long way towards helping work-life balance.
Denver is booming market in desperate need of better design - and there is a market for it.
Denver is booming, I can attest. Word is there is someone moving to the city every 20 minutes. If you move anywhere you will essentially have to restart your practice from scratch, can you do that? Do you want to? How about Durango? Flagstaff? Both have universities so have better civic and cultural life than other cities that size.
FWIW: The Forbes 2015 "Best Places for Business and Careers" lists Denver as #4, Ft. Collins as #5, Greeley as #20, Boulder as #25 and Colorado Springs as #29 - this is relative to ALL other cities in the US.
While I don't otherwise have any specific contribution to your dilemma about balancing career and lifestyle, the above information certainly seems relevant to the decision you're trying to make.
Being currently “Profitable” is a factor…today, if you’re good, you don’t need to be there to play there…James Bassett’s office is in the middle of Nowhere-Ohio and he works all over the country.
http://www.bassettassociates.com/
Meant to add....his office is on his rural farm….find rural ground to live/work to showcase your work…nobody wants to hire a landscape architect with an office in a glass box…..live it and sell it.
That's what happens when you legalize pot, everyone stops worrying about their money, and starts worrying about how sober they are in any given time. YOLO folks...yoloo!
All brilliant observations. Thank you.
Are you close to Denver? The grass is always greener...what you describe is many peoples version of paradise...If you have a good thing going why start over? A move for your small studio will essentially mean starting from scratch. I understand your desire to work on more urban and public projects, but you do not need to relocate to do so. Just my 2 cents..
We are about 4 hours from Denver--not much else in between. The rural/mountain and Front Range markets dont crossover much. The mountain communities tend to have their own local consultants (like us) whereas the Front Range/Denver consultants have a LARGE pool of consultants. We are lucky in that we have ties to the Front Range and often do subconsulting work (conceptual design and graphics) for several Front Range firms, but we do not get credit and do not typically see the projects though to construction, so they are typically not portfolio worthy as we are aiming for built work. Our portfolio, consequently is chock full of drawings, illustrations, unbuilt work--which is frustrating in its own right.
It's true, in many respects we do have a good thing going, and the grass does look grenner elsewhere. I am aware of and vigilant about this kind of thinking derailing our forward momentum, but I am also an opportunist. As I mentioned, the RE market here is obscene. We will almost certainly NEVER be able to afford a reasonably sized home to raise a family unless we go way out in the hinterlands, then we'd be even more isolated. We bought our place bank owned and made a great choice in terms of timing with that. We could unload it today for probably 65% over what we paid two years ago. But where would we go?? Its hard to ignore the idea that we could cash out from our one bed condo and put $100k in our pockets and relocate in a place where we could afford a detached home with a yard and access to all the things I mentioned for what our condo is worth. We bought low, could sell high, and buy in the middle...or so it seems anyway. No doubt, we would be potentially moving to an area with less wealth, but would still have access to equal wealth closer to the cities.
Tintt, Stone, Archanon--
I hear you. We both lived up and down the Front Range for nearly ten years. We both went to school in Fort COllins, lived in Boulder, and worked in Denver. Yes, it is booming, but it is also a cluster___ of people. I absolutely HATE the I-70 corridor and getting out of the city(s) is a HUGE pain. And RE prices are almost as bad as our little valley. Been there, done that. I also struggle with the fact that there is no water. I grew up on the coast and every years I get a deeper yearning to be near water. I just cant see us going back to the FR, but your points are very valid.
Carerra--
The Dilemma: A big fish in a little pond or A little fish in a big pond, I prefer the former….remember The Rule of the Sea……
Great point, thank you. I have thought about this. Actually, part of my reasoning for not moving back to the FR would be thiis fact, There are so many people per square mile on the FR and so many established forms that I'm afraid we would get lost in the shuffle. We could set up in a small town, like we did here, but honestly the prospect of living in the eastern plains, even further removed from the rockies and bisected by the ever-rumbling I-25 corridor is depressing. Its a hot, dry, and essentially uninspiring landscape.
Going back east to NE seems like a viable prospect because the geography allows for much greater mobility. Just looking at a map, its clear that one can live centrally and access each and every cardinal direction with a plethora of small towns in between every major urban center. I could envision us setting up in a place like Lebanon, NH or outsode Burlington, VT, or Albany, NY and marketing to over 30 small (pop 3500-10000) towns while still being close enough (within 2-3 hours) of at least 2-3 major urban centers (Boston, NY) and at least 4-5 small cities (Portland, Burlington, Albany, Manchester, Concord). Additionally, we could access a number of great universities in less than two hours, the ocean, mountains, lakes, and national forests. The only worry is whether all the work, even in the small towns is dominated by the big boys out of Boston/Cambridge and NY??? Its scary to think about being a small fish in a BIG ocean, but its also exciting to think about growing into that ocean and bettering ourselves. A professor used to tell me--you never get better at tennis by playing with an inferior opponent. I guess theres a balance there somewhere. Dan Kiley, a very prominent LA built his practice in northern Vermont and NH because he loved to ski and be outdoors. Its why so many LA's are drawn to LA. But he worked with some of the greatest modern architects of his day out of NY, DC and Boston. Im unsure if those days are gone and we all have to be in the city???
We are 'profitable.' If we made what we are making now in a place like southern NH we would be living very well. We are profitable, but just middle class, at best in our local area. The average household income here (for middle class still qualifying for subsidized housing) is around $180k. I find that to be absolutely absurd.
Donna--
Thank you! We have talked about this for some time and have been told the same by others, including our families. We each see our families MAYBE once a year or every two years because it is so expensive to get in and out of here. We have never taken a real vacation, just long weekends here and there and even those are rare these days, so Im not sure how what you mentioned would ever work for us here. Again, I am seeing us as being very isolated.
I worked a short while for an architect doing mostly SFH's from his office in Peterborough, NH. Actually a lot of the work ended up being in Boston suburbs, or local vacation homes for those people. You might be competing with firms from Boston, but you'll also have access to those markets. I would guess long term being in a more diverse, larger market is more stable than a small isolated valley.
Second what Donna says. If you can live somewhere near family or better afford a guestroom for in-laws you'll be so much better able to handle raising a child. I feel this is as important as all your other considerations in where you locate.
I don’t know, I still subscribe to the idea that you can take somebody who is real good and throw him randomly out of an airplane at 30,000 feet and he’d thrive upon landing (Oaky, or she).
^depends how good they are with parachutes I suppose.
But I'd agree - don't fear being in a bigger market. If you were doing well, you're doing something right, and still will have that capacity elsewhere.
I hear you Larchitect. I-70 and real-estate prices were why I moved.
the Northeast is pleasant, especially up near Vermont.
Have you considered cashing out, moving somewhere inexpensive (like Chicago) and working corporate for a few years before having kids? It would probably net you a nice chunk of change with which to re-start your own practice.
arch--
We have considered just that, but leaning more toward the northern New England region. Compared to the Colorado Rockies, the New England RE market looks like a candy store. We'd be happy going to work for a good firm, learning, and building up our network. Having some dough in our pockets would make this idea a lot easier to stomach. I wouldnt consider going back to the employment world otherwise.
Well, if you are interested, I've got a building in Littleton already setup as an architect's office. Right next to downtown, on the historic register, two blocks from light rail, etc. (I own the lease for the next 6 years). Just google the area since it's also good for kids. That would allow you to keep your clientele and get you closer to Denver if you've considered staying in the area. Littleton also has that small town vibe even though it's just a metro. The other nice advantage is it's only 4 hrs away from where you were putting you close to friends and support if you need it.
But no real water... just the Platte and Chatfield Res.
took me an hour from floyd hill to idaho springs this past saturday, think (more than) twice before leaving lalaland.
you say you want kids, I left the city BECAUSE of my kids getting ten times sicker than they've been since moving here.
BUT, it took me a good hop around the world to realize this is where I wanted to be. Start soon. Don't hesitate.
I plan everything around traffic. It took me half an hour to drive 4 miles in Denver the other day. Could almost walk faster. I commute between Boulder and Denver often and sometimes it can take 2 hours to drive the 25 miles if there has been an accident or weather. The area is experiencing growing pains, could use good design help. Lots of people means lots of business and lots of excitement so I put up with the annoyances. I have books on tape for times when I can't avoid the traffic. But you gotta go where your heart takes you, which sounds like NE.
mighty--thanks! I may get in touch with you at some point. If we stay in the valley, we would certainly want to at least pursue work more aggressively on the FR.
JLC--I know you know how it is. The grass is always greener..yada, yada...and we havent traveled much. Its tough getting away for a day or two let alone an entire vacation...
tintt--I know how it is, been there. I used to commute from cherry creek to fort collins and back daily. It almost drove me nuts and I think traffic has gotten worse in the last five years.
We have a trip planned to NE next month to scout things out and do the usual tourist stuff. Its worth it if only for the temporary change of scenery. If anyone here is in NE and would be open to grabbing coffee or a beer let me know. We plan to fly into Boston and drive north through MA, NH, VT, and possibly western maine.
Famous landscape architects are sought out for business from clients who live all over the world. In fact, visiting you in your present location might be a draw for them.
Be sure and stop in Burlington, Vermont. "Like Boulder, but colder!"
It seems like the upper crust in the NE is dominated by the Boston/NYC firms, mostly because the architects are hired from there (also where the client's home bases are). There are a few scattered LA firms up in ME/NH/VT, but no one too big since Kiley. Do remember that while things may appear close, traffic can really hamper mobility (getting from a CT office to our clients in NYC or Boston pretty much killed an entire day). There are a lot of successor firms to Kiley and Rolland (a big chunk of CT resi firms cut their teeth under Peter); and the architects all have their preferred list of consultants. As with all regions, you'll need to be competitive - one thing I noticed working in CT under a powerhouse LA office was that our fees had a hard time competing against big city firms that could hire quality interns at bargain prices.
Also, I notice that it's hard to find areas with good public schools in large populations, there seems to be a preference to send kids to private schools ($!).
"Famous landscape architects are sought out for business from clients who live all over the world. In fact, visiting you in your present location might be a draw for them."
Why didn't I think of that? Doesn’t apply to just "famous".
How about "talented" instead. Luciano Giubbelei comes to mind as a wonderful minimalist LA. At this point in his career he could live anywhere as he has projects all over the globe. But he isn't a real LA as he only had 15 months formal education. Vladimir Djurovic works out of Lebanon, and Nelson Byrd Wolf is headquartered in Charlottesville, VA.
^Don’t think any one place is a hotbed for anything.
If you're done with the small town world and you hate everything about it, i guess that's one thing. In that case, go live in a large city for a while. You'll discover it has it's limitations too.
If you have a successful business in a small mountain town and you like your neighbors and work colleagues & clients, do not rock that boat! You don't know what you have.
I'd uproot in half a second if I could relocate my business to a Telluride or Jackson or Nelson BC.
I don't think you will find a better spot in VT or some such -- it will be same bubble lifestyle, new location, no urban access. And worse skiing, (Sorry EC, 1 or 2 seasons of epic snow is all you'll get)!
My suggestion: travel more, esp since you don't have kids yet. Get your fix of urbanity and then take those experiences back with you to burst the bubble when it seems too small and inwardly reflective.
I agree with the above. In addition upstate New York is pretty dead economically. And any gains from the selling of the Colorado condo will be eaten up quickly by New York's tax structure.
Plus, you likely get a 150 to 250 sq.ft. abode to live in. Ok... some places in New York. Not all places.
You really don't know shit about upstate, do you?
Why do you think I wrote: some places in New York. Not all places.
Another thing to consider, what will the money from selling the condo in Colorado will buy in Colorado is not necessarily the same as what you can buy in places of New York.
null i think Richard googled "abodes upstate New York", one link led to another and he landed on the cabin story where the escaped convicts lived and then based his sentence on that square footage.....he then realized that that could not be right - he googled abode and not cabin. so then he tried "abode new york" and got some NYC links and figured my Googling session is over lets post it......then to sound more educated after your comment he googled New York vs Colorado real estate and learned about cost differences.......at the end of every search engine is divine knowledge.
All Hail Reverend Balkins.
haha.....so i googled it http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2009/02/9-proofs-google-is-god/
Resurrecting this thread because I'm feeling the itch again. I've been told its called 'alley-itis' and everyone gets it. The locals travel, a lot. We'll be making a chicago trip to get a little culture and urbanity in a few weeks and another tip to new england this summer.
We had a BLAST on our last trip to new england--just drove and rove all over the place, walked all over boston, up to burlington, back down to the coast, up and down the seashore, camping, swimming, etc. It was awesome.
Over two years later our little mountain town is still trying to figure out how to build a hotel and a few units downtown. The NIMBYs and BANANAs have been out in force with petitions, LTE's, pitchforks at council meetings, etc. Such a headache to make a little progress and we're barely talking design.
I get bummed out with how little is happening here and how much potential it has to be really cool. Evidently people have been saying that for twenty years. Meanwhile near my home town in New England I just read a local architect floated the idea of the town building a new 'town square' for traffic calming and public space. The City Manager took it up and its happening in under 6 months. '
As far as business we've been doing great, getting busier and busier with better projects. Still could be better. A lot of spec homes and making lemonade. We got bored with our regular project work and opened a 'Design Center' in our downtown where I go after work every day to draw and share ideas for downtown. So far its seems to have stirred some energy. We'll see.
Love the idea, Volunteer and Carerra suggest--that if we're talented we can be based anywhere, and our mountain location might actually be a draw. If it means anything, the state firm of the years office is across the street from us, so that must say something.
Oops...'Valley-itis.'
Pretty sure 'alley-itis' is something else entirely.
Larchinect, I know what you mean about valley-itis. I used to live on Nantucket island and everyone there (me included) would go to Colorado to get away (or Vermont, Maine or someplace warm). I now live near Portland, Maine and like someone said above, many of the best residential projects are done by Boston or NY firms, because that's where the owners live.
There are some good landscape architects here but competition is strong, and they often end up doing projects in Boston or Cape Cod because there are only so many projects in our sparsely populated state. If I didn't have family here, the greener pastures I would be looking at would include going back to Boston/Cape Cod, or the Albany area. I was involved in a project near Woodstock, NY last year and the market is hot there, with lots of big hills to make you feel at home. David Bowie was having a house build next door, which isn't relevant to anything, I just thought it was cool.
That said, Portland (ME) has a very positive vibe, is growing quickly, has excellent restaurants, lots of design-oriented people, and it's only 1.5 hours to decent skiing (by east coast standards).
Wood guy
funny, i actually grew up in portland and still have family there. Portland was one of the places we've been keeping an eye on. of all the ne towns outside boston, portland area actually looked like it might have its own market. Id be curious to hear more about the projects youre working on.
My projects these days probably aren't that interesting to you--mostly energy efficient new homes (up to Passive House level) and renovations, usually with very tight budgets. I used to work at a design/build company and we did some bigger projects with landscape architects. If you're into Permaculture, there is a thriving group based in Portland; last I knew it was the biggest in the country, and very active. If you want to chat offline, shoot me an email at mycoblue73 at gmail dot com. I'd be happy to share names of RA's and RLA's I know who do nicer projects here.
I'd say wait out the storm just a little more, I bet the field will clear out after April's election; I am appalled at the greed displays of your town's realtors and wealthy homeowners.
What's BANANA's?
You might want to seriously consider Upstate/Central New York. Near unlimited water, strong agricultural community, beautiful landscapes, skiing, hiking, boating et cetera.
Rochester, for instance, is an old pro-urban very liberal city with a lot of new tech jobs, a lot of old money and is doing a lot of massive urban renewal projects— tearing out their inner loop highway system, widening sidewalks, upzoning entire portions of the city.
Also, it's one of the poorest cities in the U.S. and a household income of $40k is very upper middle class.
BANANA = Built Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody
Oh yeah!, That's exactly what's happening, and what's worst, this group pretends to pay for the subject property with tax money.....and they don't like big government !! HA!
We have an election in april which, as jlc notes, may or may not clear out some of the bananas on council. Jlc is absolutely right that it ultimately comes down to a small group selfishly looking after their own property values and 'quality of life.' Im in the strange position of arfuing against a very large park (as a landscape architect) in our downtown.
What this spells for my wife an i is an aging community growing more exclusive with less opportunity for personal and professional growth. Limited affordable office space, limited or no housing and a culture stuck in the 80's. Ugh. Holding on through april...
If you are going to the east coast you might consider a trip to Savannah, GA, and Charleston, SC, either, or both, will be very rewarding for a landscape architect.
I moved the fam to colorado two years ago for a better quality of life. We love playing in the mountains. The dream was to score a gig in Summit or Eagle county to complete the dream. Two years later, I can tell you that I just turned down a very good job offer in Vail to pursue my own business in Denver. Never been to Aspen, but if its anything like Vail, I dont blame you for wanting to get out. Super pretentious assholes... Denver, with all its faults, is a very interesting place to be.
not aspen, just the spread of it; and it's not vail either, we can survive without mixing with the assholes....too much.
I'm maybe in a unique position. For various reasons, I've moved approximately every 3 years since graduation. This has allowed me to go through the process of significant relocation and see how it affects your career.
I'd say my career would be further along if I hadn't moved.
It takes 1 year for people to begin to trust you and 3 years before you are settled into a social circle. This applies to friendships, jobs and business. I don't really know what happens after 3 years because I've never gotten that far.
Donna makes an excellent comment regarding family. I'd recommend that one of you have a day job while the children are young, then possibly starting the business after a few years. This will smooth over some of the bumps of the transition. Family is not to be understated. My wife and I had children while thousands of miles from family and it was rough.
If you move to NE and start a business you won't make much of any money for the first year. I'm at year 2.5 now and feel that I'm just starting to become a real business. I'm still not getting rich, but have managed to replace my previous salary, so there's that.
I'm in urban NE. I like the cost of living vs what I get for the money. The fact that I'm on the I-95 corridor is huge. I was previously in upstate NY. It's kinda economically dead there, so I wouldn't be rushing to Rochester. I think it's much easier to have a business when transportation options, people with money and large markets are easy and nearby.
IF you are planning to put off kids for 2-3 years, then maybe one of you works, at least part time, while you re-start your biz. It made it much easier to start my biz because my wife has a day job. Don't be afraid to take on drafting gruntwork early on too, I did some of that and it smoothed my transition. Now I have no time for that kind of work.
Surprising how many small but good architect’s list satellite offices on their websites…might be worth considering to scratch that itch….try marketing in the dream location and spend some family time there to touch bases from time to time…to see if you can land something…best of both worlds if you could get paid to go on vacation…lots of satellite offices in condo’s….you never know.
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