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Rotating Building , help me with the structure !!!!

Boukhouidem

Hello everyone ,

I'm Aymen , a 3rd year architecture student , and i'm working currently on a project , it's a pavilion for Aeronautics , well i had the idea to make the floors rotating but as soon as i started working on the structure i found a lot of troubles , i think i should go for steel construction but is it possible to do with this kind of structure ? i mean the 1st floor rotate with 8 degrees and the 2nd floor also rotate with 8 degrees ( which mean 16 degrees to the ground floor ) , so the whole traditional concept of steel or concrete structure is lost , it's really hard  and i need your help , this is my designing concept till now of course  i would love to hear your ideas :D













 
Apr 18, 15 7:59 pm
awaiting_deletion

it's actually a very simple structure, if you had one,  and I don't understand why the columns have to have anything to do with the slightly skewed floor plates.

Apr 18, 15 9:04 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

.... you're modeling presumably is in Revit and then rendering in 3dsMax in Mental Ray with the typical Physical Sky background......come on let's put some effort into this, I could do that in 2 hours....

The floors have only slab thickness as you've modeled it.  You are going to need transfer beams if the column grids orientate themselves to the floor plate orientation....which is not efficient.

so if you can do a very simple internal grid for all things within the box of the envelope, i am sure from the birds eye view you can get a few orthogonal orientated columsn.

then do cantileveers and transfer beams as required for various lengths beyond the column grid.

 

for small variation off the orthogonal grid, you can simply extend the steel reinforced concrete.

Apr 18, 15 9:26 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

Thanks for your reply ,

i did this rendering just to explain my idea , of course i'll do more efforts in it :D

Now as for the structure , it will be a mixed construction , ill do the main part ( with the rotating floors ) in steel , and the other parts of the building with simple concrete structure.

So your idea consist on decomposing the load on multiple grids , and those grids will eventually hold the extended parts of the rotating floors. now i have two questions , 1* the columns you posted in the first pic seem to be in full concrete , don't you think that making IPN600 columns ( steel ) will be more helpful ?

2* the columns in the ground floor will appear in some unfavorable places in the 2nd floor since it rotate and the same in 3rd floor , so my question , how can i resolve this problem ? can i change the position of steel column from floor to floor since the whole structure is connected with the beams grids ? 

Thanks :) 

Apr 19, 15 7:17 am  · 
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gruen
Ok. There are some real rotating buildings in the real world. So I will suspend disbelief for a minute. The main structural issue is that you have a large floor plate that you want to rotate - which means very long cantilevers off a central axis - which means a very deep structure. I think you need to look at how rotating bridges are built-a very deep truss- and compare what they look like vs your structure.
Apr 19, 15 10:12 am  · 
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gruen
Or do mean- rotated - but not able to rotate?

If it's a static building then what Olaf said.
Apr 19, 15 10:15 am  · 
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Non Sequitur

8-degree rotation is so last year. 11-degree is where it's at now.

Apr 19, 15 10:29 am  · 
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Boukhouidem

Thanks a lot Gruen ,

i'll research more on how these bridges are built. the floors are rotated with 8 degrees each time , but the structure isn't dynamic , it's static .. maybe i'll go for a dynamic architecture ! David fisher's skyscraper in Dubai is one of the finest examples to get inspiration of , but still i need to deal with this structure before going to the next step. the main trouble is how to deal with all the columns that appears in the rotated floors in some random places , because in the ground floor the column follow the grid but this grid is kind of lost in the second floor because the whole floor is rotated with 8 degrees , and in the 3rd floor it shall be 16 degrees so how to deal with this problem ? 

Apr 19, 15 10:35 am  · 
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Boukhouidem

Thanks  Non Sequitur ,

So do you mean i should rotate the floor with 11 degree ? can you tell me why please :D 

 

Apr 19, 15 10:37 am  · 
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Sarah Hamilton
Because eleven gives you that extra push to take it over the cliff!


http://youtu.be/KOO5S4vxi0o
Apr 19, 15 10:58 am  · 
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Boukhouidem

And Eleven it shall be ^_^

Apr 19, 15 11:19 am  · 
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awaiting_deletion

bouk my main point is "transfer" beams....steel or concrete whatever......put the columns on each floor in the favorable positions. see if any line up or small adjustments make lining up possible. then with simple math figure disproportions of assumed loads. by the time you get to the first floor you may have beams that are deeper tham 6 feet (2m) or something and columns to match.

Apr 19, 15 12:21 pm  · 
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archanonymous

Use a consistent column grid that falls inside a common footprint along all floorplates. And you'll probably want to add either much deeper structure, or a full-floor-height truss along the edge of the building, which is always a nice expression.

Apr 19, 15 12:27 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

Thanks Olaf Design Ninja , i'll try to make the structure using Robot or Advance steel.

Apr 19, 15 1:04 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

Thank you archanonymous ​ , can you provide me with  an example of a full floor height truss please ?

Apr 19, 15 1:05 pm  · 
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gruen, for a large dynamic rotation you could model the system on a series of stacked lazy Susans.

Apr 19, 15 1:12 pm  · 
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x-jla

+++non sequitur 

Apr 19, 15 1:19 pm  · 
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x-jla

12 degree and above is considered "avant garde" 

Apr 19, 15 1:19 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

i wouldn't get into full structural modeling yet, but you may learn what i am proposing this way.......model it as per design and then visually find a situation that appears to have the max loads....for instance one column may go 2-3 floors and land halfway between two columns at ground floor. i would figure the loads on this column and get a feel foe the size of this beam before i did everything.....you may switch back to 8 degrees instead of 11 after doing this..

Apr 19, 15 1:40 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

Hey Miles Jaffe ,  what do you mean by Susans ? 

Apr 19, 15 1:45 pm  · 
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Rotating plates, like a giant flat ball bearing.

Apr 19, 15 2:05 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

miles speaking of bearing plates and bearing balls etc.......home depot carry that? or should i go car parts store....trying to think of names for parts like that or from what in home depot i could rip the part out of.....

Apr 19, 15 2:08 pm  · 
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archanonymous

One

Two

Three

Four

Five

If you use columns, your trusses should run in both directions, as in the last example. If you can use two parallel full-height shear walls at the far ends of the buil, it is reasonable to show the trusses only running on two faces of the building.

Apr 19, 15 2:13 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

bouk when you are done we'd love to see the development.

Apr 19, 15 2:50 pm  · 
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archanonymous

Olaf, try Mcmaster-carr. HD usually has the shittiest stuff... worth the premium mcmaster charges to get good parts.

Apr 19, 15 3:49 pm  · 
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Another vote for McMaster-Carr. Overnight delivery from an incredibly deep catalog, mostly US made.

Apr 19, 15 3:57 pm  · 
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Miles, is right on to something. Of course these individual plates need to be engineered in large scale. However, you'll need a core to rotate the structure on. If I had a choice, I would also have a curved 'track' wall that supports the structure. Whether you have 360 degree rotation or say an arc. Realistically, you probably may consider rotation track where you can track solar arc during a chosen peak period. 

It is very expensive and hard to maintain not to mention the motors required to drive the movement. I would use steel and wood for the floor 'plates' and reinforced concrete mass piers. 

Apr 19, 15 4:23 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

thanks...arch, totally forgot about that catalog...maybe Grainger as well...

Apr 19, 15 4:49 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

the to truss per floor proposal...i actually like that one more. maybe you could do suspended truss floors like Foster's Hong Kong Bank? eliminate all columns and beams and basically via megastructures and space frame diaphragms....you are in school.

Apr 19, 15 4:55 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem


Thanks Miles Jaffe for the clarification , i found these giant roller bearings manufacturer by liebherr :

http://www.liebherr.com/CP/en-GB/products_cp.wfw/id-2084-0


 

Apr 19, 15 5:10 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

Okay Olaf , i'll do this as soon as i can and i'll re-post here , btw i can also use transfer beams to perfectly adjust my grids on my needs. 
i found a similar project to mine it's : Kieran Timberlake's UNCC Center City Building and i also have a revit file of it , but unfortunately i can't say i get what type of structure is used. maybe you can take a look :

http://​ https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GthV9nk5S8MjNxWk9rTEdHOEU/view?usp=sharing


 

Apr 19, 15 5:13 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

gruen , what if i do something like this REX project where each rotated volume is framed independently. ?

Apr 19, 15 5:15 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

archanonymous i must say i didn't get it very well :( , '' your trusses should run in both directions'' how's that ?

Apr 19, 15 5:17 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

since it is an aeronautics building "airplane cables" for tension would be in theme here as well.

Apr 19, 15 5:20 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

Richard Balkins, Assoc. AIA so in order to achieve a dynamic building i need to core to rotate the building on ( even if the floors are static i might need a core like '' The Shift '' Dubai ). and rolling bears ( already found them  http://www.liebherr.com/CP/en-GB/products_cp.wfw/id-2084-0 ) . what else ? :D 

Apr 19, 15 5:20 pm  · 
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Boukhouidem

Olaf how can i use airplane cables in the structure ?

 

Apr 19, 15 5:21 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

see my comment about Foster's Hong Kong Bank. If I remember correctly up to 12 floors at a time are suspended from mega trusses. so lets say the walls are mega trusses and they are all suspended from steel in tension (aircraft cables, i think i am saying that right). this means though you may end up with what look like towers sticking up thru building...think bridges, which was brought up earlier

Apr 19, 15 5:32 pm  · 
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Just stack up a couple of these.

No need to shout.

Apr 19, 15 6:45 pm  · 
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why is there so much BOLD? jinx @Miles

Apr 19, 15 10:30 pm  · 
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