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Shop Drawing Stamp Language

awaiting_deletion

Looking into making a stamp.  Pretty much avoided this over the years by simply asking the builder  to build what's on my drawings - I don't believe in Design Intent, I believe in building...Occasionally, I give the contractor my CAD's to expedite the shop drawing process, in short I say - you're approved, build it already....

but the jobs are getting bigger and bigger and I have to rely on draft people now...I'm not a fool, but then when I read the articles below I thought maybe I should just keep avoid having a stamp?

Why We No Longer ‘Stamp’ Shop Drawings At Leo A Daly (from AIA website)

 Fear of Shop Drawings: What Is the Process,Really, and Does It Need Fundamental Change (also AIA)

generic samples...


 

I prefer short and sweet language....

recomendations?

 
Mar 14, 15 8:47 am
shellarchitect

I like the last one, which is what we used at parsonsbrinckerhoff. Saved us when I approved something I shouldn't have

Mar 14, 15 9:52 am  · 
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JeromeS

I read the article: why get the stamp?

Mar 14, 15 10:51 am  · 
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shellarchitect

Read the links posted - will hVe to defer to the grownups here, but it is easier to simply point to the stamp language rather than pulling out the whole contract

Mar 14, 15 10:51 am  · 
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Menona

Instead of a stamp with all of that wording... put all the "wordy legal mumbo-jumbo" into the contract docs in the "Shop Drawings / Submittals" section.  There you can spell out and define everything in a single place and there's plenty of elbow room to include all the CYA language you need or want.  Cramming lots of wording onto a stamp is not useful or efficient.

Then instead of a rubber stamp and an ink pad, go to the Office Supply section of your local, neighborhood interwebs and order a box of permanent self-adhesive labels (they come in any useful size you might like - the more per sheet the better).  Then print up a graphic with the "Approval Options"  (□  Conforms to design intent,  □ Conforms with design if notations are included,   □ Does not conform, etc. - you define) like any of the "box" parts of the stamps you show above. 

Include as a note with the boxes and options "See contract documents under 'Submittals' for definitions and disclaimers".  Put a thing on there for a submittal log number, signature, and date ("reviewed by") just so you know it's been done and when.

Arrange a label doc (I use InDesign or Illustrator) with the sheet of the submittal approvals stickers, insert your labels into the printer,  and Ctrl+P.

Print off as many of the stickers as you need and stick 'em when ya need to.  It beats trying to find a clear place to stamp an ink stamp on documents.  Stickers also work on pieces of granite too (ink stamps don't like rough hewn stone, or  carpet / tile / glass  samples either).  If you have a color laser printer make the base "stamp" color bright blue or green or something that will be legible but will contrast with the (usually) black line drawing or text of the submittals you receive.  Then use a contrasting ink color to fill out the stamp - these just make it easier (I've found) for me to see quickly when I'm trying to track down a specific item in a pile of submittals.

Then you can revise and update the "legal" definitions (the mumbo-j) easily in the contract docs on a project by project basis in case you miss something and haven' had things reviewed for your benefit by a lawyer.  You can also quickly and easily revise or update the "stamp" graphic if you need to.  If you do the stamp graphic in the computer then you can also turn it into a "stamp" in Acrobat for any PDF digital submittals you receive as well.  Saves oceans of time.

Well that was too long.  Sorry for the novel.

Mar 14, 15 11:10 am  · 
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chigurh

"we neither approve nor disapprove of these drawings, godspeed and may the best man win"

Mar 14, 15 11:16 am  · 
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wurdan freo

@ Menona...If the GC doesn't use the correct language in his subcontracts, the subcontractors will not be bound to the agreement between Owner and GC.  Are you checking his subcontracts?

The whole submittal process is a joke basically what chigurh says above...

"I don't trust you to build what I've designed, so, I'm going to make you submit a new set of drawings to prove you will build what I designed, but then I'm not going to be held responsible if your drawings don't actually prove you will build what I designed."  Waste of fucking time and money. Gotta imagine this was developed by lawyers. 

Recently I bid a job as a subcontractor and here's a list of the prequalifications just to have my bid considered.

  1. General information - About your company, i.e., name, address, phone, e-mail & contact person.
  2. Company classification - List any business preference or classification your company holds, e.g., disadvantage business, veterans, 8(a) Certified, etc.
  3. Locations - List which area(s) or region(s) in which your company(s) will work.
  4. Accounting Information - Your company's accounting firm/CPA contact information.
  5. Financial Statements - You will be asked to key in certain financial statement information. Also a recent copy of your CPA prepared financial statements must be submitted. Statements must be reviewed or audited by a CPA firm.
  6. Banking - Include banking name, address & contact information. Also credit line details.
  7. Bonding - Include your bonding agent contact information.
  8. Letter of Bondability - Include a copy of your bonding status and capability. How much is your total bonding capacity? How much can you bond per project?
  9. Trade References - Who you currently do business with. (At least 3 are required.)
  10. Project References - Recently completed projects with details to include the General Contractor, value of subcontract and completion dates. (At least 3 are required)
  11. Safety Information - Information related to your company's safety program.
  12. Experience Modification Rate (EMR) - Experience Modification Rate information.
  13. OSHA/Lost workday Incident Rates - Your company's OSHA/Lost workday incident history.
  14. Quality Assurance/Quality Control - Your company's quality assurance/quality control program.
Mar 14, 15 1:20 pm  · 
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Carrera

Prefer the first, mumbo-jumbo can be in the specs or better yet on the transmittal, I want the turd that sent them to me to read it and think. Pulled back from shop drawings in 1981 with the Hyatt bridge collapse....which was a shop drawing substitution slipped into the sheets…..only the approving engineers were punished….we are being "Shop Drawing Bitches"…most of the stuff I’ve seen are drawn by children and the GC’s don’t even bother to look at them, just shove them off on to the architect to figure out. Scoured the words “shop drawings" out of all my specs, why do I need them?

Mar 14, 15 1:57 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

so in short - back-off from the traditional "shop drawing" process as much as possible, include the language in the contract, approve or disapprove with major considerations and keep language as abstract and obscure as possible?

Mar 14, 15 2:35 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

am  i better off marking-up the drawings and attaching them to a report, and just avoiding a stamp altogether?

Mar 14, 15 2:37 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

here let me give you an example where I can't expect the one trade to think about the other and i feel the stamp is somewhat silly, whether it's the 1st one above or the last one:

Millwork has integrated mechanical.  The millworker gives two shits about where the supplies and returns are or if condensation or other moisture problems could occur due to location and functioning of the mechanical systems, let alone access to the mechanical if they breakdown in the future.  So you get the shops and you start laughing because they look like Mickey Mouse drew them.

Do I ask them to keep updating the drawings until I think they are right or do I just say - See the damn drawings, your shop drawings are very inadequate? (as they tend to be these days)

so why bother approving since it's not the "millworker's" job to give a shit about the "mechanical"....seems like a waste of time here?

Mar 14, 15 2:42 pm  · 
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Carrera

Olaf - get rid of shop drawings requirements in your specs, be selective and only require them on things that are critical to the outcome. Why look at structural steel shop drawings? Miss a bolt or weld spec and you’re going to own it. Why process a sample of Armstrong Dune ceiling tile when that’s what you speced? Huge waste of time & money to say nothing about liability. Think the first stamp says it all.

What’s changed is that the GC’s aren’t looking at them anymore and are pushing the job onto us, push it back.

Mar 14, 15 2:52 pm  · 
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awaiting_deletion

noted Carrera, I appreciate your advice very much....it's funny, I thought I was becoming more 'professional', haha....

Mar 14, 15 2:56 pm  · 
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What Carerra said. But if you need a particular detail to come off right then fully invest yourself in it, whatever it takes.

Also pick your issues carefully and don't exceed the capability and willingness of the GC and subs to pull it off. Better to simplify the condition to the point where any idiot can do it rather than have it done poorly and stick out like a bloody hand print at a crime scene.

Know the difference between a nitch and a niche? A nitch is on a contract job, a niche is on a T&M job.

Mar 14, 15 4:11 pm  · 
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shellarchitect

recently spent two days laboriously re-dimensioning a conc. footing submittal for an contractor. If it was up to me i'd have just said "resubmit" but is seems our footings are so complicated that they can't figure it out and need extra hand holding.  Not sure if they are actually incompetent or if its a strategic move.

Mar 15, 15 2:29 pm  · 
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Carrera

Shu - they don't care, we’re the only guys in the room that care and you know what happens to people who care....they do all the work.

Mar 15, 15 2:43 pm  · 
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archanonymous

I am glad we are all spending so much time learning and switching to BIM just so we can continue to output shop sets.... When a contractor offers to work off my Rhino or Revit model, I immediately want to work with them more.

 

Shop drawings are just a symptom of a broken AEC industry.... but I use something very similar to that last stamp.

Mar 15, 15 3:07 pm  · 
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Carrera

Arch - it's a big country but in Midwest you’re lucky to find a subcontractor that has a fax machine.

Mar 15, 15 3:38 pm  · 
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archanonymous

Carrera, I know.

I moved to Chicago from Denver for work 6 months ago. Not sure if it was 4 years of connections and local knowledge in Denver, or the fact that, as you said, contractors out here are total luddites, but it has been frustrating. 

I had several metal fab facilities, a couple millwork guys, and site and concrete guys who were all fine working from a 3D model. It is just so much better....

Mar 15, 15 4:01 pm  · 
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Wasn't CAD supposed to be the magic bullet that allowed everyone to exchange and modify information digitally?

Carerra - caring is the key to misery. Enjoy!

Mar 15, 15 5:23 pm  · 
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When you work under state procurement rules, you must list multiple eligible manufacturers for everything: a good reason *not* to jettison submittals. It's good to see what the low-bidding manufacturer's product actually is.

No negative in making sure the contractor understood your documents and intends to comply. It's harder to fix things after you realize during inspections that they didn't understand.
Mar 15, 15 6:00 pm  · 
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proto

so, if no shops, is all the coordination of figuring out the details shunted to RFI's? or pre-construction meetings?

I've done CA on large projects so I understand the complexity of the GC/architect relationship during construction in that world, but my business is now all residential. Cabinetry and guardrails seem to be the only shop drawings I see anymore...but holy crap they have a lot of variety in them compared to what i draw in my design docs! If i didn't review them for the owner, the owner would be very angry with some of the misunderstood manifestations of my drawings and the costs to fix them (and I don't think my dwgs suck).

perhaps i'm defeatist, but i think owners will tire quickly of the he said/she said that will result from pushing the responsibility fully on to the GC. certainly we need to be available to help the GC get it right...it's their first time building it

Mar 16, 15 1:17 pm  · 
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Carrera

Didn't say eliminate I said be be selective.

Mar 16, 15 1:44 pm  · 
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proto

i guess i was extending the no-stamping thought per leo daly to not-reviewing shops...which, as i think on it further, is not the same thing at all...my bad

Mar 16, 15 1:51 pm  · 
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mightyaa

Mine says:

"Corrections or comments made to the shop drawings during this review do not relieve contractor from compliance with requirements of the drawings and specifications.  This check is only for review of general conformance with the design concept of the project and general compliance with the information given in the contract documents.   The contractor is responsible for: confirming and correlating all quantities and dimensions; selecting fabrication process and techniques of construction; coordinating its work with that of all other trades; and performing its work in a safe and satisfactory manner."

It has saved my arse several times.  They've snuck in substitutions, fudged the quantities, put in things like "by others" like cleats, provided items too long to fit the space, omitted something in the package I didn't catch, etc.  And every time argued that I signed off, therefore they have a valid CO to make a correction to get it to work... I have them read the stamp again.  I looked for general conformance, but they are still responsible for the rest of it specifically written out. 

Mar 17, 15 11:04 am  · 
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mightyaa

Oh, and I should clarify after reading that Daly article.  The vast majority of my work is negotiated with a GC on board early in the design process.  I do actually respect the various tradesmen as professionals.  So some things, like my cabinetry, might be a rough sketch showing intent and materials.  I rely on their millwork shop to make whatever necessary corrections to the design have to happen so it can be built.  It’s more collaborative.  So essentially, they provide the details, I provide the design intent. 

Unlike Daly, I play a role in the design of the fabrication shop drawings…. So I ‘own that’ role via the shop drawing stamp. 

Lots of things like that in my drawing sets and my GC’s know I’m am rather open to ideas their subs might have about how to put stuff together and maintain the appearance I’m seeking…  They often have better ideas or call attention to some product that simply works replacing what I’d been doing like some cool support they loved or light fixture that they know works better than what we’d specified.

Daly seems to be of the approach that the architect knows best and the contractor is a tool.  There are some like that, but most aren’t.  So for me, the shop drawings are a collaboration between a sub-contractor and myself.

Mar 17, 15 12:16 pm  · 
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