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shellarchitect

I was told in a lunch and learn today that sound transmission related lawsuits are the 3 most common reason for an arch. firm to be sued.... Can anyone confirm this or share any stories?

The presenter theorized that lawyers were running out of asbestos cases and that Sound transmission is the next big thing for them

 
Nov 11, 14 1:02 pm
wurdan freo

Fuck the lawyers... Yes even my friends too!!! Any wonder why congress is so fucked up? 40% assholes... I mean lawyers. Did the bottom feeders mention anything about the over promise and under delivery of LEED? That seems ripe for the picking. STC can be a huge issue, especially where clearly required by code. Had a project where the ceiling contractor ran his screws through the rc's and into the joists. Sounded like tap dancing down below when people walked on the wood floors above. No lawsuit cause contractor knew they f'd up. Pulled wood floor and installed additional layer of matting to correct the issue. On another note... Burn in hell lawyer scumbags :)

Nov 11, 14 1:14 pm  · 
 · 
wurdan freo

Hey what happened to my formatting? Probably fucked over by a lawyer.

Nov 11, 14 1:16 pm  · 
 · 
wurdan freo

Q: What does a lawyer get when you give him Viagra? A: Taller Q: What do you call a smiling, courteous person at a bar association convention? A: The caterer. Q: What's the difference between a female lawyer and a pitbull? A: Lipstick. Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 100? A: Your Honor. Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 50 A: Senator. Q: What's the difference between an accountant and a lawyer? A: Accountants know they're boring. Q: What's the one thing that never works when it's fixed? A: A jury. Q: Why did God invent lawyers? A: So that real estate agents would have someone to look down on. Q: What's the difference between a vacuum cleaner and a lawyer on a motorcycle? A: The vacuum cleaner has the dirt bag on the inside. Q: What' the difference between a lawyer and a boxing referee? A: A boxing referee doesn't get paid more for a longer fight. Q: What's the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer? A: A bad lawyer makes your case drag on for years. A good lawyer makes it last even longer. Q: What's the difference between a jellyfish and a lawyer? A: One's a spineless, poisonous blob. The other is a form of sea life. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a trampoline? A: You take off your shoes before you jump on a trampoline. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a leech? A: After you die, a leech stops sucking your blood. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and God? A: God doesn't think he's a lawyer. Q: How are an apple and a lawyer alike? A: They both look good hanging from a tree. Q: How can a pregnant woman tell that she's carrying a future lawyer? A: She has an uncontrollable craving for bologna. Q: How does an attorney sleep? A: First he lies on one side, then he lies on the other. Q: How many lawyer jokes are there? A: Only three. The rest are true stories. Q: How many lawyers does it take to screw in a light bulb? A: Three, One to climb the ladder. One to shake it. And one to sue the ladder company. Q: What are lawyers good for? A: They make used car salesmen look good. Q: What do dinosaurs and decent lawyers have in common? A: They're both extinct. Q: What do you call 25 attorneys buried up to their chins in cement? A: Not enough cement. Q: What do you call 25 skydiving lawyers? A: Skeet. Q: What do you call a lawyer gone bad. A: Senator. Q: What do you throw to a drowning lawyer? A: His partners. Q: What does a lawyer get when you give him Viagra? A: Taller Q: What's brown and looks really good on a lawyer? A: A Doberman. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a liar? A: The pronunciation. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a prostitute? A: A prostitute will stop screwing you when you're dead. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a vulture? A: The lawyer gets frequent flyer miles. Q: What's the difference between a mosquito and a lawyer? A: One is a blood-sucking parasite, the other is an insect. Q: Why did God make snakes just before lawyers? A: To practice. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a herd of buffalo? A: The lawyer charges more. Q: What's the difference between a tick and a lawyer? A: The tick falls off when you are dead. Q: What do you get when you cross a blonde and a lawyer? A: I don't know. There are some things even a blonde won't do. Q: Know how copper wire was invented? A: Two lawyers were fighting over a penny. Q: Why does the law society prohibit sex between lawyers and their clients? A: To prevent clients from being billed twice for essentially the same service. Q: What can a goose do, a duck can't, and a lawyer should? A: Stick his bill up his ass. Q: How can you tell when a lawyer is lying? A: Their lips are moving. Q: Why did New Jersey get all the toxic waste and California all the lawyers? A: New Jersey got to pick first. Q: Why don't lawyers go to the beach? A: Cats keep trying to bury them. Q: What do you call 5000 dead lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A: A good start! Q: What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road and a dead lawyer in the road? A: There are skid marks in front of the skunk. Q: Why won't sharks attack lawyers? A: Professional courtesy. Q: What do have when a lawyer is buried up to his neck in sand? A: Not enough sand. Q: How do you get a lawyer out of a tree? A: Cut the rope. Q: Do you know how to save a drowning lawyer? A: Take your foot off his head. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a bucket of manure? A: The bucket. Q: What is the definition of a shame (as in "that's a shame")? A: When a busload of lawyers goes off a cliff. Q: What is the definition of a "crying shame"? A: There was an empty seat. Q: What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a lawyer? A: An offer you can't understand Q: Why is it that many lawyers have broken noses? A: From chasing parked ambulances. Q: Where can you find a good lawyer? A: In the cemetery Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a gigolo? A: A gigolo only screws one person at a time. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a vampire? A: A vampire only sucks blood at night. Q: Why to lawyers wear neckties? A: To keep the foreskin from crawling up their chins. Q: What is the difference between a lawyer and a rooster? A: When a rooster wakes up in the morning, its primal urge is to cluck defiance. Q: How many law professors does it take to change a light bulb? A: Hell, you need 250 just to lobby for the research grant. Q: If you see a lawyer on a bicycle, why don't you swerve to hit him? A: It might be your bicycle. Q: What do you call a smiling, sober, courteous person at a bar association convention? A: The caterer. Q: Why do they bury lawyers under 20 feet of dirt? A: Because deep down, they're really good people. Q: Why are lawyers like nuclear weapons? A: If one side has one, the other side has to get one. Once launched, they cannot be recalled. When they land, they screw up everything forever. Q: What do lawyers and sperm have in common? A: One in 3,000,000 has a chance of becoming a human being.

Nov 11, 14 1:29 pm  · 
 · 
wurdan freo

Dammit!

Nov 11, 14 1:30 pm  · 
 · 
x intern

I've always heard it was roofs.  Learned the hard way the second is curtain wall.  

Nov 11, 14 3:47 pm  · 
 · 

There is no single cause that lawyers rally behind except extortion.

Nov 11, 14 4:06 pm  · 
 · 
curtkram

Q: What does a lawyer get when you give him Viagra?
A: Taller

Q: What do you call a smiling, courteous person at a bar association convention?
A: The caterer.

Q: What's the difference between a female lawyer and a pitbull?
A: Lipstick.

Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 100?
A: Your Honor.

Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 50
A: Senator.

Q: What's the difference between an accountant and a lawyer?
A: Accountants know they're boring.

Q: What's the one thing that never works when it's fixed?
A: A jury.

Q: Why did God invent lawyers?
A: So that real estate agents would have someone to look down on.

Q: What's the difference between a vacuum cleaner and a lawyer on a motorcycle?
A: The vacuum cleaner has the dirt bag on the inside.

Q: What' the difference between a lawyer and a boxing referee?
A: A boxing referee doesn't get paid more for a longer fight.

Q: What's the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer?
A: A bad lawyer makes your case drag on for years. A good lawyer makes it last even longer.

Q: What's the difference between a jellyfish and a lawyer?
A: One's a spineless, poisonous blob. The other is a form of sea life.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a trampoline?
A: You take off your shoes before you jump on a trampoline.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a leech?
A: After you die, a leech stops sucking your blood.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and God?
A: God doesn't think he's a lawyer.

Q: How are an apple and a lawyer alike?
A: They both look good hanging from a tree.

Q: How can a pregnant woman tell that she's carrying a future lawyer?
A: She has an uncontrollable craving for bologna.

Q: How does an attorney sleep?
A: First he lies on one side, then he lies on the other.

Q: How many lawyer jokes are there?
A: Only three. The rest are true stories.

Q: How many lawyers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Three, One to climb the ladder. One to shake it. And one to sue the ladder company.

Q: What are lawyers good for?
A: They make used car salesmen look good.

Q: What do dinosaurs and decent lawyers have in common?
A: They're both extinct.

Q: What do you call 25 attorneys buried up to their chins in cement?
A: Not enough cement.

Q: What do you call 25 skydiving lawyers?
A: Skeet.

Q: What do you call a lawyer gone bad.
A: Senator.

Q: What do you throw to a drowning lawyer?
A: His partners.

Q: What does a lawyer get when you give him Viagra?
A: Taller

Q: What's brown and looks really good on a lawyer?
A: A Doberman.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a liar?
A: The pronunciation.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a prostitute?
A: A prostitute will stop screwing you when you're dead.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a vulture?
A: The lawyer gets frequent flyer miles.

Q: What's the difference between a mosquito and a lawyer?
A: One is a blood-sucking parasite, the other is an insect.

Q: Why did God make snakes just before lawyers?
A: To practice.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a herd of buffalo?
A: The lawyer charges more.

Q: What's the difference between a tick and a lawyer?
A: The tick falls off when you are dead.

Q: What do you get when you cross a blonde and a lawyer?
A: I don't know. There are some things even a blonde won't do.

Q: Know how copper wire was invented?
A: Two lawyers were fighting over a penny.

Q: Why does the law society prohibit sex between lawyers and their clients?
A: To prevent clients from being billed twice for essentially the same service.

Q: What can a goose do, a duck can't, and a lawyer should?
A: Stick his bill up his ass.

Q: How can you tell when a lawyer is lying?
A: Their lips are moving.

Q: Why did New Jersey get all the toxic waste and California all the lawyers?
A: New Jersey got to pick first.

Q: Why don't lawyers go to the beach?
A: Cats keep trying to bury them.

Q: What do you call 5000 dead lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
A: A good start!

Q: What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road and a dead lawyer in the road?
A: There are skid marks in front of the skunk.

Q: Why won't sharks attack lawyers?
A: Professional courtesy.

Q: What do have when a lawyer is buried up to his neck in sand?
A: Not enough sand.

Q: How do you get a lawyer out of a tree?
A: Cut the rope.

Q: Do you know how to save a drowning lawyer?
A: Take your foot off his head.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a bucket of manure?
A: The bucket.

Q: What is the definition of a shame (as in "that's a shame")?
A: When a busload of lawyers goes off a cliff.

Q: What is the definition of a "crying shame"?
A: There was an empty seat.

Q: What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a lawyer?
A: An offer you can't understand

Q: Why is it that many lawyers have broken noses?
A: From chasing parked ambulances.

Q: Where can you find a good lawyer?
A: In the cemetery

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a gigolo?
A: A gigolo only screws one person at a time.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a vampire?
A: A vampire only sucks blood at night.

Q: Why to lawyers wear neckties?
A: To keep the foreskin from crawling up their chins.

Q: What is the difference between a lawyer and a rooster?
A: When a rooster wakes up in the morning, its primal urge is to cluck defiance.

Q: How many law professors does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Hell, you need 250 just to lobby for the research grant.

Q: If you see a lawyer on a bicycle, why don't you swerve to hit him?
A: It might be your bicycle.

Q: What do you call a smiling, sober, courteous person at a bar association convention?
A: The caterer.

Q: Why do they bury lawyers under 20 feet of dirt?
A: Because deep down, they're really good people.

Q: Why are lawyers like nuclear weapons?
A: If one side has one, the other side has to get one. Once launched, they cannot be recalled. When they land, they screw up everything forever.

Q: What do lawyers and sperm have in common?
A: One in 3,000,000 has a chance of becoming a human being.

Nov 11, 14 4:42 pm  · 
 · 
mightyaa

Yes, it is a common lawsuit in multi-family.  Sometimes in commercial tenant finish.  Part of the issue is when you sue, really there is only one major complaint that is causing a significant problem like water infiltration.  But when you go to the trouble of hiring lawyers, experts, filing fees, etc., you can bet sending folks out who actually know construction defects when they see them will find a lot more wrong.  Sound transmission is one of those because it's so commonly jacked up by builder grade, low bidder, sub contractors.

I've done one commercial where it really was all the suit was about.  It was in a specialized doctor's office, and you could quite literally hear patient/doctor conversations clearly while sitting in the waiting area.  That's a huge no-no and was a major requirement of the program given to the architect (who ignored it )...  It essentially made 3 of the 6 consultation rooms unusable.

Nov 11, 14 7:47 pm  · 
 · 

I've said it before but it bears repeating:

Jaffe's First Law: The value of a service is inversely proportional to its degree of completion.

Jaffe's Second Law: If you need a lawyer, it's already too late.

For the record, the first was Norman.

Nov 11, 14 8:44 pm  · 
 · 
Carrera

How do you protect yourself against this? If you did a hospital project, are you required to examine each room for sound transmission? Guess you better…wonder what the requirement is….just another layer of responsibility without compensation. Think this thing we do is just getting super complicated, layers upon layers of responsibility without layers upon layers of compensation.

Nov 11, 14 9:57 pm  · 
 · 
wurdan freo

Usually required by code Hospital 45 STC Hotel 50 STC There are standard details just like fire rating. Shit like this will continue as long as government grows and needs more crap to regulate in order to justify their existence. What happens when architecture schools dont limit their enrollment??? Massive over supply of entry level personnel. What happens when law schools dont limit their enrollment? More and more frivolous law suits. Too many fuckin lawyers.

Nov 11, 14 10:48 pm  · 
 · 
shellarchitect

The lunch and learn was pretty interesting in general.  My firm is mostly retail, but we are starting to do movie theaters and a hotel so this is something we'll have to be more familiar with.  

the guy was really excited about how you can get a STC over 50 by adding 1/2" of homosote to one side of a drywall wall

Nov 12, 14 12:35 pm  · 
 · 
midlander

Hotels take this stuff seriously - need to really watch not just the room-room walls but plumbing chases, MEP plenums, MEP noise, doors+frames. Interior finish can have an impact too. Floor-floor transmission is often worse than room-room because it's more difficult to block impact noise.

Nov 12, 14 10:44 pm  · 
 · 
mightyaa

The normal defects I see in this:

The improper installation.  So you use a prescribed STC assembly and the electrician and mechanical sub put things back to back essentially blowing holes through the assembly.  Like ducts, fire suppression, junction boxes, etc. 

Improper materials.  They substitute things like a sound channel for a normal furring strip.

Mechanical mounts and locations.  That's a huge one.  Short large returns, open plenums, etc. are also pathways for mechanical noise.  Same with undersized ducts creating a whistle.  Units themselves aren't isolated from the structure causing the assembly to work like a drum head and transmit noise.  Ditto for the little stuff like exhaust fans, garage door openers, etc.

It is usually isn't directly the architect who may even have standard STC assembly rated details.  But you are overseeing the mechanical engineers and construction; That's where you get hit is that coordination and supervision.  It's the '"You should have known that 16 ton unit makes a lot of noise.  So why is it adjacent to the theatre with a 4'x6' open grill as the return?"  Answering that it's the mechanical engineer's fault entirely won't fly.  You made that floor plan and reviewed their work and the construction of it in most cases.

Nov 13, 14 11:47 am  · 
 · 
shellarchitect

sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.....

even if you review the shops carefully there is no way, short of being on site and everywhere, to prevent contractors from being stupid

Nov 13, 14 12:36 pm  · 
 · 

^ Yet another reason to be an architect. You're responsible for every imaginable fuckup by everyone else, as well as those that can't possibly be imagined.

Nov 13, 14 12:43 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Shuellmi, I think you meant to write "...prevent contractors from being contractors."

Sounds is big thing with many of my office's clients. Some request absurd amount of security and sound-proofing that individual offices are designed essentially with moats... and we're in-charge of making sure all consultants remember this at every coordination meeting.

I've found that sound masking/proofing is turning into another greenwashing cash-cow. There is white noise and pink noise masking (don't ask... I never cared to ask myself) and all sorts of films and gypsum panels that promise certain STC ratings. While this might work well in the lab, it's never near those numbers once built.

I've even had one client provide us with their own sound "expert" who asked us to refrain from adding re-bar to 6' dia concrete columns in a massive 2nd level boardroom for fear of sound transmitting through the steel in the slabs to some evil person listening several floors away. The re-bar went in in the end because... well, physics, and reason.

Nov 13, 14 1:07 pm  · 
 · 

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