Archinect
anchor

First condominium project on my own, i have some questions

kalyopi

Hello there, this may, I graduated a 3 year program called Architectural Technology, in Canada, Quebec. And I just recently was offered the opportunity to design construction drawings for a 2 unit condominium building, that is two floors and smaller than 300 square meters. Which, to my knowledge, I can build without an architects seal. I have never done a project like this on my own and while i can execute the drawings, I am a little hesitant on the legal responsibility I can inherit. Here are some questions that i have:

1. How much should I charge?

2. Can i potentially be sued if something goes wrong? How can i avoid that?

3. In order to build the building and get it approved by the city, do I have to take responsibility for them (sign my name on the drawings)?

4. Should I have the client consult a structural engineer to size the members and foundation?

Those are all the questions I can think about right now. I would be very thankful if some of you could take the time to answer those questions and lead me through the right direction. 

Thanks alot,

Paul.

 
Aug 8, 14 2:21 pm
Non Sequitur

As far as I know, you cannot sell professional services without a licensed architect/P.eng stamp (perhaps there is a grey zone in the RBQ like in Ontario where a qualified individual holding a BCIN can produce documents for buildings under under 600sqM).

That does not however prevent you from drafting up a set of documents (as long as you don't refer to yourself as an architect) but you will need to inform the client that those docs are for information only and that they must seek a permit as owner... and thus take responsibility for the drawings. It's not necessarily legal, but given it's Quebec, I would not be surprised if this was common.

Having a P.eng stamp the structure will most likely be required but remember that anyone can be sued... and if something goes wrong, then you will be the first to take the blame.

My advice, having done a few similar grey projects while still an intern, is to be very careful with how you market your "skills" to your client and not to let them dictate code and life\safety aspects of the project. See what the local building department accepts for permits and work around that, if possible.

Aug 8, 14 2:45 pm  · 
 · 
wurdan freo

 Your questions have been answered on here before.  Do a search. The fact that you are asking them is good, but that you have no clue leads me to believe you will be slaughtered if you try this on your own. Find someone who knows what they're doing and partner with them.

to answer your questions.

1. as much as you can get

2. yes. don't do the project.

3. yes.

4. yes.

Aug 8, 14 2:47 pm  · 
 · 
curtkram

i've never worked on a condo project myself, however i did come across this random website while googling

http://www.cavignac.com/publications/professional-liability-update-condominium-projects-insurance-implications-for-design-professionals/

there are others

http://bit.ly/1nAdI4X

i don't know what's going on.  maybe the developer who has hired you can't find more experienced architects to work within his budget (perhaps the budget of single family residential?).  mabye it's a family deal.  sounds like you're being set up.  either way, this is probably not the project you want to cut your teeth on. 

Aug 8, 14 2:55 pm  · 
 · 
kalyopi

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions. I think the client is willing to pay me 3000$ for the sets of drawings. Non Sequitur, you are saying that if the client takes the drawings and he gets the permits himself, as a owner? I am not responsible for the drawings, but he is? Because this is my first project and I am not necessarily getting paid a lot of money to do this, I don't want to take responsibility for the drawings. And I am looking at my options.

Aug 8, 14 2:57 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

Kalyopi... you're skirting on a dangerous line here. Technically, building departments accept drawings submitted "by owner", but rarely will they do so on new construction... let alone a multi-tenant building. Like I mentioned above, the construction industry in Quebec is an odd one and ignoring for an instant its ridiculously high levels of corruption, you're still stepping into a complicated system. I am surprised this would not have been covered in your classes.

If, for example, you are building this condo in some back-country town, perhaps the local officials will accept a "by-owner" permit app... if however you're building in downtown Montreal, there is no chance in hell that the docs will pass without a professional seal. The point is, inform yourself on the range of your skills relative to the building permit before getting into any formal agreement with the client. Perhaps you swing the contract in the direction where you are only providing design services "for information only" and that permit docs ought to be obtained separately.

The only way to avoid responsibility (another way is not to take on the project) is to join forces with someone who has the seal and liability insurance and work together to produce the docs. The codes have changed in the last 2 years and more & more building departments are looking for an architect's seal when dealing specifically with insulation, frost protection, soil & water management, etc... There is no way a city will turn a blind eye to these and expect a contractor to do things properly (see my corruption comment above).

In the end, $3k is less than 40hrs' worth of a draftsmen time.  There is not much money in there to hire a qualified professional and this is a big red-flag.

Aug 8, 14 3:16 pm  · 
 · 
kalyopi

Non Sequitur, The condominium will be built in Lachine, Montreal. Thanks a lot for your advice. The client needs a set of drawings (bidding documents/not for construction) that he can show contractors so he can get an estimate on how much the building would cost. I was thinking of an alternative where I would create these drawings for bidding only, not construction. After getting an estimate from my bidding documents, he would then seek the help from an architect to create construction drawings. If i go this route, and i indicate on each drawing page: "Not for construction". Would this relieve me of all liabilities? Thanks, and I obviously would have to charge him less than $3k. 

Aug 8, 14 3:27 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

"not for construction" in a big bold red stamp on each sheet is a must. If this is the contractual understanding between you and the client, then there are no issues as anyone can draft plans... but, you're never free from liability to a certain extent. Put down some fine print on your agreement that states that the docs are to the best of your knowledge and that the client accepts any risks. It's not fool proof, but better than leaving yourself wide open.

Bid/tender docs would be much simpler than permit and much-much simpler than construction. Count yourself lucky that you're getting a commission and try and cover as much of your ass as possible.

Aug 8, 14 3:33 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

It might also be less than a good idea to continue discussing this in a public forum now that you have been apprised of the potential legal pitfalls.

Aug 8, 14 3:36 pm  · 
 · 
x-jla

First off...you can be sued for anything with or without a license.  Its a huge misnomer that only an architect can be held liable. The courts really don't care much...especially criminal courts if a negligence case is brought against you.  If you claim to be able to do a task you are automatically expected to demonstrate competence and reasonable care.  if you cannot do the work you should not accept the work. Period.  I personally do not think it is ethical to learn on a clients dime.  If you are gonna do work on the side its best to start really small and work up to more complex proJects, but if you are confident and competent then go for it.  Just be sure to write a good contract and label everything Not For Construction.  3000 for construction docs is way way too low.  Assuming the construction cost is as low as 300k that is still only 1%.  Yikes.  I have charged 3k for a water color landscape plan.  

Aug 8, 14 3:48 pm  · 
 · 
kalyopi

You are saying i can still potentially be responsible even if i act as a draftsman for drawings that are not for construction and for bidding only? This is the first time im doing a project like this and i just want to make sure that I am not putting myself into a legal danger and im not doing anything illegal. In the event that i do drawings for bidding only and I tell the client that i dont want to be responsible for anything. Do i need to have a contract with him? I only want to act as a draftsman.

Aug 8, 14 3:55 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Who's creating the details? Who's designing the building?

Aug 8, 14 4:00 pm  · 
 · 
kalyopi

I am, for the bidding part, but then an architect would be used to create the construction documents.

Aug 8, 14 4:03 pm  · 
 · 
curtkram

think of it this way

you're responsible for the decisions you make.  pretty much always.

doesn't matter what you're doing, or if you have a license or an education or whatever.

also, it doesn't matter if you tell the client that you don't want to be responsible.  even if they say you're not responsible, you're still responsible for the decisions you make.

to rephrase my previous post, talk to an insurance agent about getting a professional liability policy for your condo project.  being that it's condo project you're going to work on rather than some other building type, the insurance agent may be able to walk you through some of the hurdles you will likely have to face.

Aug 8, 14 4:08 pm  · 
 · 
Non Sequitur

You're in the construction industry, you'll always be liable to a certain extent. What happens if you under size the beams, forget to include some windows and don't indicate the proper thickness of insulation? You clients may not see these issues and collects bids. He then awards a contract to the lowest bidder (who most certainly saw your errors). Once the project kicks in construction, these errors are brought to light with huge extras... who do you think your client will yell at looking for an answer if you're the only one who touched the docs?

What happens if something leaks or the roof caves in, you can always be held accountable for the information you provide if it can be demonstrated that you were at fault. Not having a license is not a "do whatever you want and stay out of jail card".

I'll let you in on a little secret. I cut my teeth in this profession while still in undergrad working in a small office who's primary source of revenue was fixing up for permit/construction drawings that contractors got drawn up for cheap by students/recent grads.

Aug 8, 14 4:08 pm  · 
 · 
kalyopi

I am very glad i posted on this forum because i realized that:

1. 3000$ is nothing for the project.

2. The potential liabilities i would inherit doesn't even compare to the price im being paid.

3. Even though I know i do good work, since im a beginner, i am new to proceeding with technician/client relationship, and i should probably start small.

4. I don't have insurance and acquiring it while still in school with no guarantee that i would get projects is inefficient. 

5. Taking this project would be stupid because it has the potential to screw me over for a small amount of money. 

Aug 8, 14 4:18 pm  · 
 · 
SneakyPete

Holy shit.

 

Are you sure you don't want to drag this out to 45 pages? 

Aug 8, 14 5:05 pm  · 
 · 

Block this user


Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?

Archinect


This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.

  • ×Search in: