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I graduated from an accredited Interior Design Program from Kean University in New Jersey last year and have been in search of a job ever since. I interned at a couple of small firms here and there, but I have been trying to land a good job at a prospective firm and so far all the jobs I've wanted to apply to won't accept resumes without at least a minimum of three years of experience or more. How am I supposed to gain experience if no one wants to hire someone with less than a year of experience. I really love Interior Design and know the majority of the programs required in this field pretty well but it's desperate times like this (being jobless with a big student loan debt) that sometimes make me wonder if I should consider a new career path. Helpful advise anyone?
Cuz employers can't afford the money to train you then have you go to another firm after 3 years. They want someone else to pay for the training.
the like to hire architects first because they can kill two birds with one stone, work with interiors and architecture also... or so they assume
Also, don't ask if they're hiring or not.. Just send them an email saying you're looking for work and attach your resume. If you portfolio is any good, they will get back to you.
I've applied to about 50 job postings the last year and I haven't gotten an offer yet, I think I have a decent portfolio but nothing so far. Maybe I should consider majoring in Architecture which seems to be doing better than Interior Design.
you could go get a graduate degree in architecture.. But beware, this profession could be just as bad xD
I don't understand what more you gain from majoring in Interior Design than in Architecture? Once you get a degree in Architecture, go and do whatever you want with your life... but majoring in interiors is a total joke....
@mcamposid: It's simple - because there's an oversupply of designers of all types, employers can hire new staff with experience for not much more than they would have to pay if they hired you. The current economics do not work in your favor.
For that reason, you have to give employers an unusually solid reason to hire you. Generally, that means offering some skills that otherwise aren't readily available. But, employers also will hire someone they know before they hire a total stranger. So - you need to get out into the community and make contact with people who work in design firms (architecture firms and ID firms) -- establish and maintain relationships -- join ASID and go to all of their events -- network like crazy.
If you can find a temporary gig -- even if it's for just a few days -- take it and work your ass off. Some of my best hires over the years have come from people who came into the office for just a few days to help with a deadline.
If you're doing cold applications, don't forget your resume/ port folio don't ever get read. Or if it ever get read it will be put aside and will be forgotten in 3 days. You need to turn up in the office and introduce yourself and talk to the owner of the firm.
If you're applying from an advertisement then obviously you don't meet their requirement of minimum experience. This is always the trickiest part when trying to get your very first job. One way around it is to exaggerate your experience. There's nothing wrong about saying that you have the experience and then try to pick up as you go and do extra homework after hours. If you want to beat all your competitors then you have to do something different and work extra hard.
The other option is to wait for the perfect and kind boss to appear and offer you a job and who is willing to train you from scratch. This is the longer option.
Also I'm not being sexist or anything but I think females have a slight advantage when it comes to getting their first job if they have little to no experience than males. There are people out there who are willing to pay a small wage to have a person with some sex appeal than a geek to train up.
Thank you for all the advise, @BulgarBlogger interiors is no joke I bet you don't have a clue about designing for children with Autism or people with Alzheimer's. It's not just about picking pretty colors or wall papers it's about the environmental psychology that affects people and interior spaces and there's a lot of codes you have to follow in regards to the welfare and well being of people.
Look what we have here... A designer lecturing an architect... HA
^ Why are you making fun of a interior graduate? smh. mcamposid made a point.
Everyone, lets quit being phallics.
Some architects can learn a things or two from interior designers because they specialize on interior design while some architects don't involve themselves in interior design.
I'm a building designer but also by virtue of being a building designer am an interior designer as well. It depends on the focal point of the services I provide. However, I think the babbling going on between architect & interior designer is kind of off topic to the question.
Well that degenerated quickly.
For the record, many arch schools do teach what Mcamposid mentions above. Perhaps the problem is over-saturation of designers in his/her market.
You're probably a designer because you can't become an architect...
Bulgar, Snoop mentions that he's a licensed architect in another post in the forum...
But on another point and in my own experience, I've found that if int-des schools would spend more time training their students to design rather than fuel the "us vs architects" mantra, these pointless quarrels would disappear.
so, mcamposid, are you only looking for jobs that focus on kids with autism or people with alzheimers? you might be having trouble finding a job because your education was so focused on a narrow specialization without a lot of cross-over relevance into other fields.
or are you looking for a job picking colors and just wanted to try to make a point? architects can learn about psychology too.
I'll tell you why....
because I just got drawings from one of our interns (BS in Architecturs) for a house addition (elevations and floor plans) that I was supposed to get mid day Monday and they still look like crap. The builder knows how long it should take, so how can I explain and bill 31 hrs. and it was supposed to take 4 hrs. So I have to take it out of my own packet for him to learn and right now we are simply not in that position.
Not that we don't want to train fresh graduates, we all went through that, but right now its very tight for everybody and we can't afford it.
Now, this is a potential Architect down the road, so we are giving him a chance so down the road we benefit from him. Most architecture firms don't have interior design department, so when you apply to an architecture firm, they simply ignore it and don't have time to respond to you.
And sending 50 resumes and waiting for a response is nothing, people (with outstanding resumes and portfolios) have been known to send 50 a day and still no response.
Its a tough market out there, but good luck!!!
Don't take all the digs from these guys serious, they are just jaded because interiors make more money than them starting out. If your in New Jersey look into other options.
Interior designers have the entire field of finish product rep and furniture rep that pays better as well.
You might look at some of the large companies that build a lot they tend to have a staff of people to oversee the work of the firms they hire.
You might also look at government work, city, state feds. not flashy and would probably suck the life out of you but come the next down turn we will all wish we weren't sitting in your cubical getting a paycheck.
Robbmc, generally speaking, int-des do not make more than architects in a typical office setting. The breath of their skill set simply does not compare... unless you're referring to zero experience grunt staff working $14/hr. In my market for example, a graduate int-des can expect a 38K start while a M.arch applicant can hit anywhere between 40 to 50K start.
Your point about gov work is spot-on though. Many building and HR departments hire int-des to help communicate between the design teams for large office fit-ups. I do a fair number of these jobs... and let's say, the quality of the staff is... well... underwhelming.
I wasn't talking about snoop
I feel you. You belong to the "greatest recession, since the depression" economy. (On an aside I am trying to think of a for you guys and gals - suggestions encouraged.)
The good news is firms ARE hiring. According to a leading agitator of classified ads for architects, since July of 2013, there’s been a 24.4% increase in employment in Los Angeles and 34.4% in New York, so things are looking brighter if you are in the right place geographically.
Shameless Plug. I own CFA a placement firm for architects. Keep in touch if we can help.
@BulgarBlogger I am not lecturing you I am just defending my field which i don't believe is better or equal to architecture because they are two different fields of study. Being said that, I am not going to tolerate you calling this field a joke because architects and interior designers need each other to help make the interiors of a structure pleasant spaces to occupy. If you come at me disrespectful I will treat you that same way. I respect the architecture field, most of my professors in college had degrees in both Architecture and Interior Design and they taught us to respect both fields because they are dependent on each other. I could have been an architect if i would have put my mind and effort into it, but that was not my first choice as a career path. So don't degrade people because you feel as though your superior to others. @curtkram i was just responding to VulgarBlogger the same way he responded to me, not trying to offend any one, and at this point any job would be great!
@robbmc thank you for the advise I will look into this, nice to know gentlemen still exist.
There's a difference between majoring in Interiors and practicing as one.
The interior designers at my current place of work are well respected by their clients and us architects. Sometimes I hardly see the division between the two groups. Their skills bring plenty of value and they work just as hard as any other member of the team. Very business savvy.
However, when I'd see what interiors students were doing vs. what my architect colleagues were producing, I admittedly scoffed more than once.
^-- they move stairs and columns. it's just not right.
Non Sequitur. I was referring more to the other common type of interior positions not necessarily the typical arch firm. I would say your 38 to 40 is fairly accurate spread strait out of school for typical arch firm. Not much difference when you consider the arch spent 2 more years in school. The interior designer would have two years experience by the time the arch grad hit the street. I'm in a fairly robust market though with a lot of interior positions/options (Dallas) typical mid range cities wouldn't have near the options. I'm arch wife is interior so I've seen both sides, seems pretty level here until you get to the project architect level where the spread opens up a bit in the arch office.
I've done projects with and without interiors they typically come out better if there's an interior designer working the finishes and interior details. Big jobs get too complicated and these types of things get shoved to the end and done quickly without someone who's more knowledgeable on the options available and working the design from the beginning. The shear amount of finish options alone means a lot of big firms actually have a librarian to weed out and keep up with whats out there (another job option)
gives me a headache just thinking about it.
to the opening poster, sorry did not read all responses. Just wanted to let you in on a secret Architecture firms are hiring but they dont want to pay... much. Especially big firms like fill in the blank, they are trying out their old model of having one or 2 people that know what they are doing, and surrounding them with lots of inexperienced fresh bodies from college, crossing fingers and praying that nothing breaks down. try the websites apply.
Every firm is really just looking to use you as a tool. Think of it this way: the owners/management have too many meetings to pay attention all the time to all the details of the building. So- they have to hire people to do it. They basically just want a machine that will spit out the construction documents after paying it x amount. Possibly do some renderings as well, and make sure the building gets built the right way.
At least from my experience this is how most employers are going to look at you. They really aren't going to care that much about your portfolio, except that if it seems aligned with what they do and can make you seem more like them. Its all about sucking up and kissing rear end.
So - when you apply keep that in mind. It will make finding a job much easier. Experience with construction documents helps because they start to trust that you aren't going to skrew things up. But most firms will train anyone they hire for a bit.
mcamposid, I had a 40 year career as an owner/architect, had offices in 4 cities. The key is: do not give up! Starting out is torture, was for me 40 years ago.
Quizzical has good advice, take it to heart. Also, in your field, you need to consider (hold-your-nose) working as a Rep or at a commercal furniture concern. Being a Rep can really be propelling. It gets you inside firms, tons of networking opportunities and the pay can be really good to help with your student loans and get you on your feet.
Two secrets to share: One is to always do what others don’t do. I once received a hard copy resume/portfolio via FedEX . It was not my place to act on it but I did look at it and it got a post-it-note from me and sent on….later I learned that he got an interview. Another is an individual that I interviewed. I liked him but he did not have the experence I published and I was sitting there wondering what to say next and he then said….” I know you seem unsure but I know I can prove myself….how would it be if I worked for for free for a month, no strings attached…”. I hired him on the spot and he stayed on for quite awhile.
You sound like a good person and have a great foundation…good things happen to good people, I know you will find your way.
You know what... it is rare a recent grad jumps into a full-time position without first being an intern or having interned previously. Apply to jobs as an intern. Looking for full-time work without any prior work experience does scare employers, unless you have kickass work.
Mcamposid, I think I owe you a more direct answer to your question, “Why won’t employers hire interns without a lot of experience?” It’s really just about money, it isn’t about you. My struggle with this was always how am I going to get paid back? People without experience are not very billable. Interns can consume a lot of time on a task and as an owner I had to be very careful when invoices went out to check for gouges. Client’s pick-up on this kind of thing and it can lead to answering embarrassing questions. One slip and you can get your entire invoice questioned.
I tried many times but one time I took an intern along with me to a meeting for her help and learning. The client asked who she was and when I explained she wanted her out of the meeting. We were 60 miles from home and she had to go sit in the car and wait. It was embarrassing and I couldn’t bill her time. This is business and interns can be a liability. Office overhead (time/things that can’t be billed) is a real burden on owners. I guess just bringing them on to help and learn without billing them is the right thing to do….my partner was constantly bringing in “stray-cats”. I ran the business side and would just cringe.
Right now it’s a Catch 22….Try to find my partner or divert for a period as I suggest in my former post, you’ll eventually get in, patients needs to be applied here.
^ which is why IDP is a complete bullshit system. The career of a grad should be in his/her hands not in the hands of other professionals.
What Carrera said is the ugly truth. And did you noticed he hire a girl intern? Guys probs have no chance. That's why the only way to break through this so call "catch 22" situation is what I explained earlier. Be creative, take risks, exaggerate, after all what's the worse that could happen? You can get fired and a bad reference. That's ok.... it is worth it because if it pays off you'll make it. Pateintly waiting is another option as suggested however I've seen people working at cafe serving drinks for a long long time and they forgotten they had an B Arch degree.
I half agree with jla-x. The system is not bullshit. The school is bullshit. If schools focus more on teaching and feeding students what employers look for instead of useless 5 years of rubbish then this problem wouldn't occur. Take an electrical apprentice for example. They do a two years course, after they completed the course they are qualified to work as an entry level apprentice without any problems of incompetency.
Btw that client of yours who ask your intern to leave is absuletly not on in my practice. I would have said something. Poor intern.
Absolutely* iPhone correction
Jla-x, you should start a forum on IDP, I’d blast them there. The whole process of getting licensed is “bullshit”. It’s discussed throughout Archinect so I won’t go far….when I was coming up I worked for a contractor/developer to garner experience in construction. I was his in-house (unlicensed) architect. My goal was to become an architect/builder. Too I had a young family and could not survive on a draftsman’s salary. I paid hell trying to get a seat at the state exam and later too trying to get my NCARB. Both discarded the experience and wouldn’t even give a discounted credit. No credit for learning how to build a building!? Learning that vs. humped over a drafting table doing door schedules? Garnering experience anywhere in the industry should merit. Creating our built environment is an amalgamated process and experience is necessary from a thousand points of light. Bringing these things to the table is intern development.
Snoopy316 the rejected intern thing caught me by complete surprise. The client didn’t ask she directed me. I was so taken back I think if I had said something I would have started stuttering. And she was a woman rejecting another woman!
Stretching the truth – I once lied at an early interview as to whether I knew how to check shop drawings, I said yes. Within a week I got a pile dumped on my desk. I remained calm, waited for everybody to go home that night and I jumped into the file cabinet to look at my predecessors shops and figured it out. Sometimes this approach is necessary so long as it’s not your primary responsibility.
Ok- I think I have a solution to the education issue...
Why can't a 5-Year Bachelor's of architecture be focused on the topics tested on in the ARE and the M.Arch be focused on design theory and criticism...? If someone coming from a non-architecture background wants to get a Master's in Architecture, then the program would be longer- not 3.5 years... but more like 4-5 years or whatever the equivalent is...
GraduatedLicensure, that’s funny! You know what though….at the very moment it happened I actually thought it was some kind of bad gay bar flashback thing happening….because she didn’t explain why or lecture me after about it.
you might find employers more willing if you lower your asking price as well, try 5-10k lower, it worked for me.
If you're male then that's you're first and only mistake, nothing worse than going home and telling you're family you've been beaten by a pair of boobs at interview, lol.
seriously though there's a situation where the employer could have the cost and bother of training you up and as soon as you are trained up you leave, they then have to do the same all over again. So can be a big waste of time and money plus could be counterproductive if the competition get more numerous and stronger as a result. Best they could hope for is that you do enough grunt work along the way.
If you're female then use as kuch sex appeal as you can to secure the job. To be honest though while interior designers have their uses you've taken an easier going subject so can't expect the pay off to be as great, as they say no pain, no gain.
Employers should ask themselves also this question (as the road does go both way), what is the incentive for interns to stay. Interns have professional goals such as getting licensed. No one pursue the licensure track to be a low paid indentured servant until they retire or die.
Why do interns go to other jobs because it helps them get through the licensing path because employers aren't teaching interns. They are assigned tasks as any employee because that is exactly what they are. It isn't teaching or education even though people do learn things by doing. Interns as with any employee is there to be delegated tasks and to extent responsibilities so the employer doesn't have to do it all. After all, it is so the employer can go out and seek more projects.
Interns or any employee for that matter (in any occupation) isn't going to stay working for an employer unless there is an incentive such as increase pay, promotion opportunities. This is one things architects fail at alot as well as in actually running a business.
That is besides the point. However, employees don't tend to stay at one place of employment longer than 5-10 years. If they stay longer, they become uncompetitive. If they stay too short they become uncompetitive. The general sweet spot is usually around 5-10 years depending on the field. This is normal. Only incentive to keep people longer than 10 to 15 years is is they have a realistic chance of becoming a firm principal. At 15 years, you better have a serious promotion step such as senior associate with candidacy for principal in 5 years along with a serious payrate level that is significantly above entry level. Otherwise, they aren't going to stay.
When architectural employers conduct themselves like a mom & pop shop, those employers have no rational reason to complain about employees leaving because they is no possibility of becoming an owner because a mom & pop shop business is only going to descend down the family as a family owned business. If firms / employers do not proactively make a work environment where employees have upward progression in the firm over a reasonable amount of time, employees aren't going to stay. The principle point is to establish loyalty, you have to have the incentive and establish the environment conducive for creating loyalty with loyalty.
We can all send you resumes to say, we want to be principals of the form some day. That has never worked in the past.
If I were to join a firm, would I stay with one if they have no rational incentive for me to stay with them especially if I am only paid maybe $2 more per hour then entry level 0 year education/experience even after 15 years employment with them... you probably guess it.
It isn't necessarily that we want to be rich but we do want to have decent family paying jobs so we can raise our own families of 3-5 without having to work overtime (with no additional pay) for the architectural firm and a part-time job at McDonald's flipping burgers just to get over the $50K a year mark.
Bottom line, we want to have decent income for households so we can own our homes, debt free and be able to raise a stable household.
What my point is, it is a cycle. Employees are not properties of the employer. THey are real people with their own goals in life. You have to build a employer-employee relationship that is conducive for building loyalty and desire to stay.
Nothing said is meant to imply condoning poor work ethics of employees. Because it is a cycle it is a two-way relationship. Employees have a responsibility to the employer to give their best wherever possible.
If I was working for a great employer, I would provide my best wherever possible. There would be a good chance that I would stay with them if there is good promotions opportunities, decent pay and great work environment.
Carerra brings a good point. Most of the time, employers looks at it simply from a price perspective.
Then the question for the employers out there is deciding how much to pay an employee that is entry level. If they have no real knowledge and skills to get the work done in a statistical standard (with reasonable float) then maybe they be paid a lower wage then the standard payrate.
Sub-average knowledge & skills = sub-average pay.
Richard & Stewie_2011, Stewie states one big problem, they leave. Richard you state the reason they leave. Both are correct, it’s again Catch-22.
On one hand the employee needs to seek and pull-in the opportunities to move forward but at what 22-24 years old many are yet to posses the life skills to do that effectively. It’s easy too to be intimidated at that age.
On the other hand employers need to seek and push-out opportunities to move employees forward, but don’t. Karger & Aldrine write in their recent book – Why Work Isn’t Working Anymore - that employers/managers lack meaningful, empathetic relationships with their employees and don’t seek knowledge about their lives, beliefs and goals that facilitate growth. They are not doing this because, as I’ve stated here and elsewhere, they are chasing-the-tiger.
Looking back I think I did pretty well with interns, most I can think of stayed a long time but that was me looking to get my money back by using their wide ranging computer skills helping me with proposals, PowerPoint presentations, taking them along to help me do my work, all that seemed to relieve the grunt-work and made for a more interesting day. Failing these things it is indeed necessary to keep moving around to find them.
Richard, Astoria, Oregon….Columbia River…Lewis + Clark stuff are favorite subjects of mine. Looked at what I could on Wicks/Brown, couldn’t find any photos but did read and found that John E. Wicks was largely self-trained and practiced without a “license” for his first 15 years….which are two other favorite subjects of mine. Live on Lake Erie and yesterday the city told everyone to stop using the water due to an algae contamination….eyeballing your house at/near The Columbia for a long hot shower and a cold glass of ice-water.
By the way, mcamposid left the building a month ago (Jul 10, 14 12:40 pm)
Yep, J.E. Wicks started around 1904 his practice in Astoria. That was 15 years before architectural licensing laws were existant in the state. He served on the very first Oregon Board of Architect Examiners in 1919.
However, J.E. Wicks learned drawing/drafting at American School of Correspondance (or something of the sort) and his Architecture education (a 3 year program in 1 year) at Bethany College in Kansas. This was before NAAB and before his arrival in Astoria, Oregon. in between 1899 and 1904. In the time frame between arriving in U.S. (1899) and arriving in the Astoria, Oregon (late 1903) he had a brief work experience in the Leadville mines and experience working as a construction superintendant and working for an architect. The guy worked like hell, you can imagine.
He continued to self-learn and develop himself. Something that dedicated interns should look into developing that kind of dedication because learning is architecture is a continuous lifelong thing. John Wicks made that happen. Yes, in his day, it was before architectural licensing.
As for maturity, well.... people can be as mature as they need to be but it is a discipline of the mind over behavior that was instilled in those days that sadly too many today are not properly grown-up by the time they are 18 years old. Here, we have a young man at 21 years old moving from Finland to the U.S. in a country that does not speak English with alien customs and foods that was never before seen. It is no easy feat but to go from virtually penniless into a prominent architect and member of a community in a thriving town with a sucessful career lasting nearly 60 years.
In addition, he did most of the 'engineering' himself because in those days, in small towns outside of big cities like Portland, Oregon, Seattle, Washington and San Fransisco, California - you didn't have Engineers to go to. After all, in those times, there from two prime disciplines of engineering. Military Engineering and Civilian ( Civil ) Engineering. There were sub-disciplines of engineering (that became distinct disciplines with their own license decades later) in those days, though. It must be kept in mind that engineers usually were on involved in structures not intended for human occupancies such as bridges, roads, dams, etc. and human dwelled/occupied structures was the domain of architects.
Those were different times then they are today so I can see where concerns about life experience. Alot can be experienced in a very short time which people should keep in mind.
I wholeheartedly agree with the points given above as it is a relationship that is developed between employers and employees that keeps retention of people over a longer haul.
I don't have employees but that is because there isn't enough work at this time so I have to sort of figure out that. How to compete with some of these design-builders. Those are my challenges.
If you're around the Astoria area, it would be fun to meet and chat about the area and the architecture.
Richard, thanks for the invitation.
You touch on something important – how to build a firm when working parallel with “these design-builders”. There is an ancient thread called “You got a firm? Are ya makin’ it?” that someone recently tried to resurrect but it had 91 posts with many long insightful descriptions….you should take time to read them…I couldn’t too much, made my heart ach. I have a recent thread that is titled “Architects as Contractors or Developers” where I hoped this type of thing might have come out….it was my reason for becoming an architect-contractor-developer. I guess I needed to be more direct; I’m going there now to add a post to see if I can draw out any other ideas. Invite you to contribute or ask questions there.
I got some good response on the development side to start but it seems to have died off. I tried feeding it with a post shifting the discussion over to CM or construction and got nothing. The resurrected “You got a firm? Thread went nowhere. I sense the audience here ebbs and flows with the current being interested in music, readings and playing around with Sophie. But I think we can give one more try before letting it fade out. If it does fade I’d be happy to have an email based discussion with you to help you feed-the-tiger.
Oh, by the way, when Goggling for Wicks/Brown photos I came across one of the photos I posted to you with a caption of words, by both of us, used in our correspondence, clicked on it and it took me directly to the thread for all to read. Have nothing to be ashamed of just disconcerting with 5,922,000,000 people Goggling each day compared to just thousands here filtered down to what 100’s that are active and maybe less than 20-50 that actually click-read. Learned a lesson.
If you can resend the link, for some reason there is no clickable link.
ALthough, I knew Ebba Wicks Brown and her husband. Ebba was daughter of John Wicks.
Sorry, what clickable link did I send?
Here is quick sample. However, there is a few corrections to be made. I believe it was Wick & Brown was 1946-1952 (considering she designed Zion Lutheran Church with John Wicks.... then it was Wicks, Brown & Brown in 1955 to 1963. 1963 or 1964 to 1965, it was Brown, Brown and Grider and Associates when Rod Grider became a principal of the firm. I don't recall exactly if Rod Grider was already working with the firm for a few year before becoming a Principal of the firm. They had a draftsman or two that were associates. OBAE records would indicate their Oregon license. Thomas D. Potter joined the firm in 1965 and became licensed in Oregon in 1967. Around 1967-1969, I believe a fellow name Richard Gabriel joined the firm at the time. He became licensed in 1972. Sometime in the 1970s, Richard Gabriel, Thomas D. Potter and Rod Grider formed as a partnership of their own. From 1972 or '73 to 1979, it was Brown & Brown. From 1979 to 1983, Ernest Brown was still active in a semi-retired status with one or two projects where he kept up his license until completion.
John Wicks kept his license from 1919 to 1963 (when he passed away). He never "retired" but in his later years, after 1955, he reduced his work load because after all, he was well into his 70s. In the 1950s, he was slowing down on projects but one of his last projects was converting the Astoria High School buildings he designed into Clatsop Community College with Ernest & Ebba Wicks Brown (Son-in-law and daughter, respectively) in 1961/1962.
Anyway, there is a lot of history.
Anyway, lots of nuance details and my sources is Ebba and Ernest Brown and actually seeing some of the plans they did at Zion Lutheran Church (later became known as Peace Lutheran Church)... after all I am a member of that church and so was Ernest & Ebba Brown.
I hear you and I would be interested in the discussions of the design-build process. Always stuff that can be learned.
Sorry Carerra, I might have misread somehow.