why do firms post asinine listings like these? it's a REQUIREMENT that you know all these programs? holy jebus, how many of these does your firm actually use on a regular basis? OH i see.... it says in your job listing that under the direction of senior designer I am to develop 2D and 3D design schemes, renderings, and construction drawings using BIM... but sketchup is not BIM right? neither is 3dsmax? rhino? Dammit Mr. Architect, screw you and your insane expectations.
^ Seems to me like either you keep getting shut down at an interview or you can never get an interview to begin with. From experience, firms only highly dependent on 1 program. Be very good at one and find a job that uses it.
Many offices run all sorts of software depending on who the lead architect is. I know of a few places where employees are grouped into working teams based on their main software.
I left grad school many years ago having a handle on all listed above plus others. BIM, CAD and 3D modelling, animation software are not difficult to learn.
Go ahead and put the programs you don't know on your resume and practice an hour a day or so with them. By the time you get an interview, you will at least have a grasp of the basic ins and outs of the programs.
first of all, HGA is a really good firm. I'd be careful dogging them out in public, even if you're using a non-de-plume. second, as an employer, when we list a number of programs, as much as anything we're trying to put out the platforms we're working on. rarely are we asking someone to be completely fluent in all of them, from day one. more than half our staff had never used revit before starting with us. with one exception, every single person's picked it up just fine.
generally, looking at that posting, they're really looking for someone who can work with a senior designer to translate design concepts into 3d. you're reading too much into it otherwise - we use sketchup, rhino, revit, photoshop, etc. all at different points and as the project needs dictate. they're probably not too dissimilar - we're not interested in training someone in that position to have to come in learning everything (eg - the only program you've ever used is vectorworks and you're not very literate in it). but we'd never turn down a great applicant who isn't "fluent" in all of them.
let's see all the softwares I know how to use.. Autocad, Revit, 3DS Max, Maya, Rhino, Sketchup, Modo, Photoshop, Illustrator etc etc.
Most modeling software works in a similar way.. If you know how to model and think 3dimensionally in one, you can do it in any software. Just take an hour or so to get familiar with some of the basic tools and you're set. Don't see what is so hard about that xD
that ad seems like pretty typical among job postings in SF. Firms do use that many programs, including mine, and I learned to use all the programs that they mentioned. At Junior Level, it does help you to know more programs as possible.
We run all of that software concurrently and in parallel. A project I'm working on right now for Dubai has team members working in AutoCAD, Rhino, SKP, Max, and Revit all at the same time. So everyone needs to at least be familiar with all of them and highly proficient in at least one (preferably two or more). But nobody is expected to be fluent in all of them except people we hire specifically for the 3D visualization team, and they're not architects.
The idea that you can do all the work for a project in one software environment is dumb. Use the right tool for the task. Only software companies (coughautodeskcough) seriously pitch application monoculture anymore.
@Greg, i'm certain they are a good firm and their website does show a lot of great and interesting work that is characteristic of good management and design.
However for a Junior staff, these requirements seem a bit far fetched. Yes, they probably don't expect you to know all these programs in and out but when push comes to shove, are they really going to be happy if you spend 30 minutes trying to do something slightly more advanced with a program that you spent an hour at home learning as opposed to 5 minutes with a program you're familiar with?
Fluency isn't attained through "just being familiar". Efficiency with a software hardly comes from a general understanding of how 3d programs work but a specific knowledge of commands, menu bars and user interface. I'm just questioning the validity of the requirement because I know many architects who thinks their employees are "too slow" with the program and not being as efficient as they would want.
However, there's a lot of good inputs here and will definitely keep them in mind.
" Efficiency with a software hardly comes from a general understanding of how 3d programs"
I'd say that's where your problem lies. All architectural software are relatively the same. One can easily learn how to effectively use Rhino, Revit, StudioMax, etc if they know at least one of them.
Perhaps this wasn't the best example to use for the current hiring culture in Architecture, but I do understand what you are getting at... It DOES seem like everyone wants a recent graduate (last 3 years) with 4-5 years experience, PM, CD experience, technical knowledge, software knowledge, already local, and willing to work for $16/ hour.
As to the software, though, don't withhold your application because you don't know a few programs on the list. I would not necessarily lie about those you do know, but I would make it clear that you have a good breadth and depth of digital design skills if you want to land a job.
my experience is that if you try to use 3dmax the way sketchup works, or if you try to use sketchup the way 3d max works, then you're probably doing it wrong. blender, of course, is completely different.
if you know one, it's easier to pick up the next. however, if you're stuck in the mindset that 3dmax should work like sketchup (or revit should work like autocad), you're going to have a hard time learning how to do it right.
If they wanted to hire someone they would have to teach software to then they wouldn't have specified...Fluent knowledge of CADD, Revit, SketchUp, Rhino, Adobe Photoshop, etc.
Would you apply for a job that asked for fluent knowledge of Mandarin?
I get where they're coming from, if they don't specify fluency they get someone that they have to test before hiring. If they ask for fluency, it's understood as a requirement prior to applying and asked about in the interview. If the person says they're fluent but then takes 3 hours to do a 15 minute task then they are released because they lied.
The economy and professional as a whole is better now but the lessons learned during the recession are here to stay.
Sometimes i run into a dilemma of which program to use for the task i've given.. overall, i'd like to use Sketchup but i can do more with Rhino... i'd like to use Rhino but my coworkers can't use it.. I end up using what my team members are using for the sake of teamwork. Based on who is on your team also determines which programs to use. Knowing many programs allows one to work on different teams and projects. I don't think HGA is asking too much out of people with 3-5 years of experience. One company once asked for video editing, FX effects (Adobe After Effects), light coding, and flash/website management on the top of all these CADD/3D programs. Just get yourself familiarized with these programs now.
Personally, I would enjoy a firm that utilizes a vast array of software. Having the day-to-day application of software that I'm familiar with helps build my knowledge. E.I. I know the foundation of Grasshopper and could work on a project and when things come up, I could Google the answer thus building my Rolodex of knowledge that I don't feel I get from watching tutorials. Even with programs that I have "superior" knowledge of, every time I go through a process I'm looking for better ways of doing something. Also, I juggle projects through software and try to use the most efficient program to do what I want to get done. I went from 0 to being the go-to person on ArchiCAD at my last place.
At the end of the day, I think about pieces of software as merely tools used to sculpt and create projects. Give me a screwdriver (SketchUp) or a drill (Rhino), either way it's about creating the best project in an efficient way.
1. I'm pretty sure the firm isn't paying anyone to go on google to search up how to use a program if "things come up". I'm also pretty sure the upper management will be having some sort of fit if they found out.
2. sure, it's about creating the best project in an efficient way that's why a general understanding about 3d softwares will get you nowhere near maximum efficiency as opposed to focusing on a select one or two.
Everybody knows how to hold a hammer but not everyone can be a framer.
Everybody knows the basics of any given 3d-Software but not everyone can go on google to search up the answers.
Everybody knows how to extrude and use simple booleans for any given 3d-software but will that be enough?
"1. I'm pretty sure the firm isn't paying anyone to go on google to search up how to use a program if "things come up". I'm also pretty sure the upper management will be having some sort of fit if they found out."
I'd flat-out disagree with this - and it makes me curious how much you've actually worked in a professional office?
Fact of the matter is, your comment pre-supposes that the worker will never need to improve themselves. That they are enough of an expert that they will never need a hand. This is potentially dangerous thinking, as every (good) office would expect their employees to become better through their work. Small improvements and the methods of best practice are picked up not only as systematic improvements, but in breadth of knowledge in various scenarios. Google affords this - so does leaning over to the more-experienced person next to you and picking up quick tips when you need it.
The single biggest learning experience for me was when I was moved next to the 'modeler/rendering guy' in my first real job. Fortunately we had great chemistry in general, but it was also the fact that we were able to bounce ideas off each other in terms of creating the correct model or design and the best method to accomplish that in the shortest time frame. Google'ing a question is just the autobot version of that.
It is important to know how to use different types of programs (BIM, node-based scripting, NURBS, Solids, Meshes, Lines, Scripting and Coding, etc..) but the specifics of these programs can be picked up as-needed. Online tutorials or help probably exists for common, and not-so-common problems that you will run into.
Being a skilled designer is about strategies and process, and less about the specific tools you use to achieve the end design.
Any firm principal who cares whether or not an employee gets an answer online, in a reference book, or from experience over whether or not they finish the task is probably already out of business.
Jul 10, 14 4:09 pm ·
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JUNIOR DSGN JOB REQUIREMENT: 3DSMAX, SKETCHUP, RHINO, REVIT... WTF?!
//startrant
why do firms post asinine listings like these? it's a REQUIREMENT that you know all these programs? holy jebus, how many of these does your firm actually use on a regular basis? OH i see.... it says in your job listing that under the direction of senior designer I am to develop 2D and 3D design schemes, renderings, and construction drawings using BIM... but sketchup is not BIM right? neither is 3dsmax? rhino? Dammit Mr. Architect, screw you and your insane expectations.
//endrant
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/16973918?trk=eml-jymbii-organic-job-title&refId=8190004e-24d8-4f33-8c80-58eb9bd257f1
^ Seems to me like either you keep getting shut down at an interview or you can never get an interview to begin with. From experience, firms only highly dependent on 1 program. Be very good at one and find a job that uses it.
Many offices run all sorts of software depending on who the lead architect is. I know of a few places where employees are grouped into working teams based on their main software.
I left grad school many years ago having a handle on all listed above plus others. BIM, CAD and 3D modelling, animation software are not difficult to learn.
Go ahead and put the programs you don't know on your resume and practice an hour a day or so with them. By the time you get an interview, you will at least have a grasp of the basic ins and outs of the programs.
first of all, HGA is a really good firm. I'd be careful dogging them out in public, even if you're using a non-de-plume. second, as an employer, when we list a number of programs, as much as anything we're trying to put out the platforms we're working on. rarely are we asking someone to be completely fluent in all of them, from day one. more than half our staff had never used revit before starting with us. with one exception, every single person's picked it up just fine.
generally, looking at that posting, they're really looking for someone who can work with a senior designer to translate design concepts into 3d. you're reading too much into it otherwise - we use sketchup, rhino, revit, photoshop, etc. all at different points and as the project needs dictate. they're probably not too dissimilar - we're not interested in training someone in that position to have to come in learning everything (eg - the only program you've ever used is vectorworks and you're not very literate in it). but we'd never turn down a great applicant who isn't "fluent" in all of them.
let's see all the softwares I know how to use.. Autocad, Revit, 3DS Max, Maya, Rhino, Sketchup, Modo, Photoshop, Illustrator etc etc.
Most modeling software works in a similar way.. If you know how to model and think 3dimensionally in one, you can do it in any software. Just take an hour or so to get familiar with some of the basic tools and you're set. Don't see what is so hard about that xD
Jack Spelling,
that ad seems like pretty typical among job postings in SF. Firms do use that many programs, including mine, and I learned to use all the programs that they mentioned. At Junior Level, it does help you to know more programs as possible.
We run all of that software concurrently and in parallel. A project I'm working on right now for Dubai has team members working in AutoCAD, Rhino, SKP, Max, and Revit all at the same time. So everyone needs to at least be familiar with all of them and highly proficient in at least one (preferably two or more). But nobody is expected to be fluent in all of them except people we hire specifically for the 3D visualization team, and they're not architects.
The idea that you can do all the work for a project in one software environment is dumb. Use the right tool for the task. Only software companies (coughautodeskcough) seriously pitch application monoculture anymore.
@Greg, i'm certain they are a good firm and their website does show a lot of great and interesting work that is characteristic of good management and design.
However for a Junior staff, these requirements seem a bit far fetched. Yes, they probably don't expect you to know all these programs in and out but when push comes to shove, are they really going to be happy if you spend 30 minutes trying to do something slightly more advanced with a program that you spent an hour at home learning as opposed to 5 minutes with a program you're familiar with?
Fluency isn't attained through "just being familiar". Efficiency with a software hardly comes from a general understanding of how 3d programs work but a specific knowledge of commands, menu bars and user interface. I'm just questioning the validity of the requirement because I know many architects who thinks their employees are "too slow" with the program and not being as efficient as they would want.
However, there's a lot of good inputs here and will definitely keep them in mind.
Thanks
" Efficiency with a software hardly comes from a general understanding of how 3d programs"
I'd say that's where your problem lies. All architectural software are relatively the same. One can easily learn how to effectively use Rhino, Revit, StudioMax, etc if they know at least one of them.
Perhaps this wasn't the best example to use for the current hiring culture in Architecture, but I do understand what you are getting at... It DOES seem like everyone wants a recent graduate (last 3 years) with 4-5 years experience, PM, CD experience, technical knowledge, software knowledge, already local, and willing to work for $16/ hour.
As to the software, though, don't withhold your application because you don't know a few programs on the list. I would not necessarily lie about those you do know, but I would make it clear that you have a good breadth and depth of digital design skills if you want to land a job.
my experience is that if you try to use 3dmax the way sketchup works, or if you try to use sketchup the way 3d max works, then you're probably doing it wrong. blender, of course, is completely different.
if you know one, it's easier to pick up the next. however, if you're stuck in the mindset that 3dmax should work like sketchup (or revit should work like autocad), you're going to have a hard time learning how to do it right.
If they wanted to hire someone they would have to teach software to then they wouldn't have specified...Fluent knowledge of CADD, Revit, SketchUp, Rhino, Adobe Photoshop, etc.
Would you apply for a job that asked for fluent knowledge of Mandarin?
I get where they're coming from, if they don't specify fluency they get someone that they have to test before hiring. If they ask for fluency, it's understood as a requirement prior to applying and asked about in the interview. If the person says they're fluent but then takes 3 hours to do a 15 minute task then they are released because they lied.
The economy and professional as a whole is better now but the lessons learned during the recession are here to stay.
Sometimes i run into a dilemma of which program to use for the task i've given.. overall, i'd like to use Sketchup but i can do more with Rhino... i'd like to use Rhino but my coworkers can't use it.. I end up using what my team members are using for the sake of teamwork. Based on who is on your team also determines which programs to use. Knowing many programs allows one to work on different teams and projects. I don't think HGA is asking too much out of people with 3-5 years of experience. One company once asked for video editing, FX effects (Adobe After Effects), light coding, and flash/website management on the top of all these CADD/3D programs. Just get yourself familiarized with these programs now.
Personally, I would enjoy a firm that utilizes a vast array of software. Having the day-to-day application of software that I'm familiar with helps build my knowledge. E.I. I know the foundation of Grasshopper and could work on a project and when things come up, I could Google the answer thus building my Rolodex of knowledge that I don't feel I get from watching tutorials. Even with programs that I have "superior" knowledge of, every time I go through a process I'm looking for better ways of doing something. Also, I juggle projects through software and try to use the most efficient program to do what I want to get done. I went from 0 to being the go-to person on ArchiCAD at my last place.
At the end of the day, I think about pieces of software as merely tools used to sculpt and create projects. Give me a screwdriver (SketchUp) or a drill (Rhino), either way it's about creating the best project in an efficient way.
1. I'm pretty sure the firm isn't paying anyone to go on google to search up how to use a program if "things come up". I'm also pretty sure the upper management will be having some sort of fit if they found out.
2. sure, it's about creating the best project in an efficient way that's why a general understanding about 3d softwares will get you nowhere near maximum efficiency as opposed to focusing on a select one or two.
Everybody knows how to hold a hammer but not everyone can be a framer.
Everybody knows the basics of any given 3d-Software but not everyone can go on google to search up the answers.
Everybody knows how to extrude and use simple booleans for any given 3d-software but will that be enough?
Which of those programs do you excel at?
"1. I'm pretty sure the firm isn't paying anyone to go on google to search up how to use a program if "things come up". I'm also pretty sure the upper management will be having some sort of fit if they found out."
I'd flat-out disagree with this - and it makes me curious how much you've actually worked in a professional office?
Fact of the matter is, your comment pre-supposes that the worker will never need to improve themselves. That they are enough of an expert that they will never need a hand. This is potentially dangerous thinking, as every (good) office would expect their employees to become better through their work. Small improvements and the methods of best practice are picked up not only as systematic improvements, but in breadth of knowledge in various scenarios. Google affords this - so does leaning over to the more-experienced person next to you and picking up quick tips when you need it.
The single biggest learning experience for me was when I was moved next to the 'modeler/rendering guy' in my first real job. Fortunately we had great chemistry in general, but it was also the fact that we were able to bounce ideas off each other in terms of creating the correct model or design and the best method to accomplish that in the shortest time frame. Google'ing a question is just the autobot version of that.
Improve yourself by any means necessary.
I completely agree with BenC.
It is important to know how to use different types of programs (BIM, node-based scripting, NURBS, Solids, Meshes, Lines, Scripting and Coding, etc..) but the specifics of these programs can be picked up as-needed. Online tutorials or help probably exists for common, and not-so-common problems that you will run into.
Being a skilled designer is about strategies and process, and less about the specific tools you use to achieve the end design.
Any firm principal who cares whether or not an employee gets an answer online, in a reference book, or from experience over whether or not they finish the task is probably already out of business.
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