recession times means that we all get bumped down a few notches...
Intermediate Archs become Junior Archs and so on...
I think you are right, this is a nice way of firms saying we know there are desperate people out there who are willing to substantially downgrade themselves for a job.

entry level position means how low you have to crawl to get into an office - I think right now you have to enter through the sewer (before you just had to do a little bit of groveling at the front door). they're saying, and I think they're correct, that really it's difficult to get into their building if you don't have at least 1-5 years spelunking experience while wallowing in sewage.

plus manhole covers are heavy.

MUST BE ABLE TO DEAD LIFT 45 POUNDS.

This isn't any worse than the ad I saw earlier today looking for a "senior intern."

senior level intern lol, how low can it get?

Do manhole covers weigh 45 pounds?

From my experience as an unpaid intern (never again!), ability to lift 45 pounds was a prerequisite.

"Masters degree preferred" statement bothers me the most.

it would be interesting to check this post in a few months/years after the recession continues/double dips... to see how wide the experience margin goes... any predictions?
I pessimistically predict...
Entry Level Designer - 15-30 years experience (say $20,000/year)
PHD preferred..

lol...I like the senior level intern post... it sounds contradictory yet it does soften the blow... I guess its just someone with 20 years experience who just never got licensed? Or an unpaid high school student...

senior intern is an intern who is 65 or older.

Project Architect/Senior Intern Architect (7-10+ years experience)...

WAT?

The corporate (Fortune 500 type) world does a much better job at defining job descriptions. Take for example the title "Associate." I've worked at some firms where anyone with more than 2 years experience gets that title, and other places where it's just one step shy of Principal. What the heck is Architect I, II, III, etc?!? Most firms don't have a clear definition of what any of their positions/titles really mean.

To me, entry level means "inexperienced," AKA, fresh out of college. Or it could be someone with experience, just in an unrelated field. Last year I interviewed for a job in a different field where they classified me as an "experienced" entry level candidate.

I found this bs on Wikepedia

Professional Title Distinctions

According to the American Institute of Architects,[4] titles and job descriptions within American architectural offices might be as follows:

* Senior Principal / Partner: Typically an owner or majority shareholder of the firm; may be the founder; titles may include president, chief executive officer, or managing principal/partner.

* Mid-level Principal / Partner: Principal or partner; titles may include executive or senior vice president.

* Junior Principal / Partner: Recently made a partner or principal of the firm; title may include vice president.

* Department head / Senior Manager: Senior management architect or non-registered graduate; responsible for major department(s) or functions; reports to a principal or partner.

* Project Manager: Licensed architect, or non-registered graduate with more than 10 years of experience; has overall project management responsibility for a variety of projects or project teams, including client contact, scheduling, and budgeting.

* Senior Architect / Designer: Licensed architect, or non-registered graduate with more than 10 years of experience; has a design or technical focus and is responsible for significant project activities.

* Architect / Designer III: Licensed architect or non-registered graduate with 8–10 years of experience; responsible for significant aspects of projects.

* Architect / Designer II: Licensed architect or non-registered graduate with 6–8 years of experience, responsible for daily design or technical development of projects.

* Architect / Designer I: Recently licensed architect or non-registered graduate with 3–5 years of experience; responsible for particular parts of a project within parameters set by others.

* Graduate architect: Unlicensed architecture school graduate in first three years of internship; develops design or technical solutions under supervision of an architect.

They're looking for someone cheap and capable.

This is truly a 'if you have to ask..' question.

Ug... I just saw this ad in NY craigslist....crazy...

"Arch Student to help File plans in the DOB (Upper East Side)"
Work may also include measuring space and drafting floorplans
Produce CAD drawings/PDFs of floor plan
$10/Hour (not including travel time)

Seems the new standard is just to advertise for "students" instead of actual Architects...

I don't think that's very new though. When I started doing internships the offices always had some "cheap labor", some more, some less.

This firm should be ashamed of itself (seen on Craigslist):

A small, fast paced, dynamic architecture firm located in DUMBO, Brooklyn is looking for a talented highly motivated architectural intern. Our firm focuses on historic preservation and adaptive-re use residential projects with a variety of commercial and retail work.
The internship position will include but not limited to the following work;

-CAD
-Rhino
-Sketch up
-Adobe Suite
-Microsoft excel
-hand sketching
-material and product research
-general office work

All candidates must have an architectural degree and at least 2-3 years out of school experience in an architectural design office. Must be proficient in all or most of the above programs and work.
The position requires a commitment of between 20 and 40 hours in the office each week, although the actual hours and days are flexible. The internship term will start in September will last through December.
This position is unpaid but a Metro card and lunches will be provided.

Please only serious designers apply, we are passionate about quality design and have high expectations for all of our team.
Please submit a cover letter, resume and PDF portfolio less then 6mb.

from Craigslist:

Oh man... I don't even know where to start. What a cheek.

Requirements:



Top of class in kindergarten crayon colouring contest

IVY league first class honours degree from each of the 8 top universities

Masters degrees in Construction project management , Finance , Real Estate Development , Sustainable Energy and the 3 Engineering disciplines

PHD in Arch Theory ( the application of cognitive conjective disassociation of linear flow in the 4 dimensional urban spatial matrix )

Executive MBA

Passed the Bar exam ( just to be on the safe side when dealing with Clients attorneys )

50 years experience

Proficient in every CAD and computer package ever invented or yet to be invented ( includes all weekly software upgrades )

Ability to go without sleep for 14 days

Low enough self esteem to render one mute in the presence of the STARCHITECT

Looks good in black.

Ability to tie the bosses dickibow in a kneeling position

Applicants under 25 whose hair is already grey or gone completly will be given special consideration

high tolerance for caffeine and glue fumes

Index finger must be able to withstand 50,000 repetitive clicking motions per week

Ability to manage multibillionaire clients expectations

Cheerful Enthusiastic disposition - ability to suppress anger and frustration





Salary and benefits as follows:

1 toilet visit per day allowed restricted to 3 minutes

opportunity to slowly destroy your eyesight and back posture over a period of 2 decades

As this is a junior intern position we ask that you pay us 10,000$ per annum for the use of our office tea station and toilet facilities

A further 5000$ per annum may be requested for the first 10 years of employment as a gratuity to go toward the principals health insurance and Porsche fund - note: the successful applicant must complete the mandatory 4 week intensive obstacle course modelled on US Army techniques in order to be eligible for this.

a stipend of 1 banana per week will be considered to the applicants who after completing the obstacle course emerge victorious from the final 'Battle Royale' stage of the application process where the remaining applicants must fight each other to the death using t-squares and scalpel blades in an enclosed cage in front of a rabid audience of Realtors , Contractors , Lawyers and City Officials

It's such a catch 22 that entry level positions require experience.

funny stuff roark

LOL, Roark

Unbelievable.A friend of mine finished computer science and she is interning at a company in NY now.She is getting 1000$.Per week.

My take:

Entry Level is someone that has no or very little professional experience in the field. There is no Entry Level person with 5 years of experience.

Intern, while I don't agree with its use, applies to anyone without a license regardless of experience level. (hence, senior interns).

"recession times means that we all get bumped down a few notches" - if employers are doing this, they're being expoitative (which employers of any profession are capable of being). If as an employee or potential employee you're doing this, you don't have to. You may be willing to take a position for less pay, but you don't just "get bumped down" by some official third party that rates your status. That is a personal choice.

RoarksRevenge: If I went through that I'd expect to be the ruler of the world.

a friend of mine finished architecture and is working at a company in ohio for 1000$ per week.

jobs are out there.

"It's such a catch 22 that entry level positions require experience."

Excactly! But maybe they don't advertise the "real" entry-level (i.e. recent graduate) positions, because offices get flooded with applications anyway?

"jobs are out there."

So are the thousands of unemployed people.

Entry level is just that -- ENTRY LEVEL.

It sually means someone with zero to minimal experience (summer internships and the like).

When firms advertise jobs that are "entry level" and paraphrase it as a person with 2-5 years of experience, you don't want to work for that firm in the first place.

That craigslist ad made me very angry.

The principal of that firm deserve to be fed to pigs.

evanc, your friend is making over $200,000 a year in architecture? i find that very hard to believe.

$1000 a week X 52 weeks = $52,000.

Oh god, if you can't even calculate that.... I'm afraid of what your load calculations look like.

I find 52,000$ hard to believe if his friend is really entry level.

oops, sorry, my brain is a bit fried after writing 10 cover letters today....

I've have seen an increasing number of "unpaid internships perfect for students or those looking for experience in a firm"

Learning experiences don't pay off student loans, keep my lights on, and stop me from going hungry. The nerve some employers have. Sure, We get it, times are tough. But have some professional courtesy. If you bring people up to your city for an interview, you shouldn't go 2 weeks without contacting them if the firm expresses serious interest.

Recession does not equal the liberty to be complete morons to those who express interest in your firm enough to take their time to research and learn about your firm.

I saw that Senior Intern post... disgusting.

I find that starting salaries like 45 to lower 50s to be perfectly normal and acceptable for someone just entering the profession in a big expensive city like New York, San Fran, DC, LA, and such.

If a firm offers you 35 or below in NYC, forget it. it's not worth it. You can get any other job that doesn't even require a degree for that.

That one ad for the unpaid internship for an "entry level" position with 2-3 years of post grad experience still makes my blood boil. If I knew the name of that firm, I would totally post them in a new thread called "Archinect's Wall of Shame."

I recently found this (internship position):

"Requirements: own laptop with architecture software"

Now what do they expect? Student's version? Cracked, illegal version? Certainly nobody buys those programs just for their personal computer...

@med: sounds like an interesting thread! Too bad so many firms post anonymously on craigslist... which is suspect in the first place, anyway.

Here is what I will do. I will create an email address posing as an unsuspecting sucker who is genuinely interested in that particular unpaid position. If they send me a response back, it will tell me what organization they are from in the email addy. I've used craigslist a bunch of times...

What they are doing is completely unacceptable and disgrace to the profession. they should be reported.

Unfortunately I did see a lot of ads on CL that said the only thing covered is a metro stipend. I even saw one for $20 a day! That's like subsistence level -- who the fuck do these people think we are???

Who are we?

People who go to school for as long as engineers, intern as long as doctors, spend as much on our education as lawyers, and get paid the same as a cashier at Sam's Club...

fucking ridiculous...

There were an alarming number of ads in CL for these "entry level" 2-4 years of experience architects and many were offering $20 per DAY for lunch and metro. That is $7500 a year.

That is UN-FUCKING-ACCEPTABLE! People who advocate and buy into that crap are a disgrace to architecture and should be banned from the profession forever.

I am sure there will be people here will defend this practice.

I did not work hard on my degree and pay for my education to work for free.

"I did not work hard on my degree and pay for my education to work for free."

Do you also follow all professional protocols, i.e. follow up letters, thank you notes, timely responses? Seems to me like that type of practice and behavior only applies to applicants and job seekers, and not to the firms themselves.

re: the $52k/year - i was surprised (shocked) that my friend got that offer, but it's true (unless he's bragging). If I had to guess, I'd say most entry level arch's make around $35k in Columbus. The firm may have appreciated his previous non-arch experience, though, and they may have had specific software needs. Hiring process/pay grades are a mystery to me.

@med. : Please, please do this. And then let everybody know who these people are... They should at least have the courage to post their firm's name in the ad!

They won't post the firm's name are you crazy? If they get 700 resumes via email when they post the firm's name they will get 700 phone calls on top of that.These people have small firms and don't have HR to deal with all the craziness.They would probably have people who walk in to "drop their resume" and interrupt the whole work flow also.Now this being an unpaid "internship" they would get about 300 instead of 700 but it is still a high number...

Well, a lot of firms do, or make their ads in a way that it's obvious who it is... and I think that shows a certain professionality.

Hansdampf I've only seen firms revealing their names on archinect but on most job boards they hide it.It is true that it is not professional not revealing the firm name,personally speaking I always visit the firm's website and look at the projects they did and I try to learn about the firm as much as possible but on the other hand if they do that they would get barraged with phone calls/emails/visits.It is a double edged sword.

Some small firms even advertise jobs on their own website. I guess you're right about the annoying calls, but still - I would also like to know if the firm is worth applying. They could write "no phone calls, please" and hope that people see it and stick to it.